An Open Letter to DPF

Discussion in 'DPF News & Announcements' started by dancecats, Mar 23, 2014.

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  1. kupo1121

    kupo1121 Master Pin Synthesizer

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    EDIT: I'd rather not even get involved. I will keep the below portion though :)

    P.S. Looks like I was quoted. Oh well, I don't mind and I stand by what I said ^_^

    P.S.S. I know someone mentioned how this site isn't like it used to be, so here is a dose of nostalgia for you:

    [​IMG]

    ICE CREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  2. Chernabog666

    Chernabog666 BANGARANG

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    Anarchy!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  3. MotherKnowsBest

    MotherKnowsBest Member

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    "I am not suggesting that every time someone makes a semi-rude comment they get an infraction here. That would be outlandish and completely unrealistic for the mods to handle. I am suggesting that if someone has documented forms of extreme harassment over the coarse of time, and presents this to the mods, that there should be some sort of new infraction administered to the harasser.

    I would be more than willing to assist in this type of system. This is something I believe in strongly, and I want it to end. If this sort of victim blaming continues, I will be leaving this site of my own free will. It is horrifying that in this day and age, people are allowed to do whatever they please, and the victim is just being told "don't look". Entire rights movements have started because groups of people were told to just "ignore it".

    I feel that it would be for the betterment of DPF as a whole to enforce some new details on the infraction system: particularly the part about "drama". Drama on and off the site (in extreme cases), should be cause for infraction. I feel that if this was elaborated upon, there would be less confusion, less rule-breaking, less instigating, and less hurt going around the forum. DPF is not the place it once was, and I strongly believe that all of this nonsensical drama is part of the cause of this. "


    ElysionsPrincess: I truly get what you are trying to say…I do. I don't however see where or how you can define "extreme cases" or how going after people on DPF (as long as they keep their nose clean HERE) will help. The confessions page is gone right….The people who had issues with it won that battle didn't they? and when the next page like it pops up fight it also….
     
  4. MotherKnowsBest

    MotherKnowsBest Member

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    You are AWESOME Kupo! I whole heartily enjoyed reading your post. So many valid points made…..
     
  5. echoharmony

    echoharmony Active Member

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    Kupo for president! Or something :p
     
  6. ElysionsPrincess

    ElysionsPrincess Love Thaws a Frozen Heart!

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    I do agree that there is a difficulty in determining what would constitute as "harassment" (in these extreme cases), and what would just be opinions and thoughts. As I stated, no, punishing someone for thoughts and opinions would just be crazy. This determination would take a lot of planning and discussion and time. It is hard to categorize such things, and I completely understand that.

    What I mean by the confessions page was not the confessions themselves, necessarily. It was the individuals who were publicly commenting on said confessions, making matters worse with hate and spite. Those are the people who outed themselves and deserve to be reprimanded (if they were continually attacking one particular member or members maliciously and ruthlessly).
    I do also frown deeply upon someone moderating a page like that and not feeling any guilt for it. I just don't understand how someone could sit by and see something they created or help create turn into something so monstrous. I, for one, would have removed myself completely and immediately if I saw it turn into something of that nature. But that is just me.

    This is why I think elaboration on the rule would be beneficial. There is a lot of confusion, even just here on DPF, about what the "Drama" infraction really means. Everyone takes "drama" as a subjective term. What I think is drama or harassment or whatever it may be is completely different than what others may think, as can clearly be seen here. If there was a system that better detailed what deserves an infraction, I think it would be positive for the forum as a whole. Of course people will always work around these new rules, people are crafty like that. But we can only hope that it would serve some benefit to the forum.

    Yes, Confessions is gone (Thank God for that!), but all because this behavior ceased there doesn't mean it is not going to spring up elsewhere (I certainly hope it does not). I guess what my mission here is is to try to implement a system that prevents it from ever getting to that point again.

    And I do not want this all put on the mods! Heavens, no. I feel like they have a lot on their plates already. I for one would be more than willing to try and help to attempt to come up with a system that would be fair for everyone. And I would be more than happy to help keep it in place and to assist wherever I could. I wonder if anyone else would be willing to join me?

    It is not that I think the internet should be policed. It is just that I think when something is attacking members on Facebook or here, based on their screen names or even real names, it does make DPF involved in some way. Does it mean DPF can punish every single person every single time they post a comment? No, of course not. But I saw some confessions that were downright insane, and the comments on said confessions were sometimes much worse (and comments are attached to names, and names are attached to screen names here). Death threats and things of that nature should never, ever be overlooked. The thing is, Facebook didn't take down the page for months. So people that were being attacked and victimized had no where else to turn for help except here.

    If DPF had had a system that threatened action against those participating, maybe those individuals would have stopped, for fear of losing their DPF accounts?
    This is what I am trying to hope to achieve. :)
     
  7. Rasputin

    Rasputin VIP Gold List

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    That is why most of all forums have the all important "IGNORE" option. If you think you might be "emotionally compromised" by someone, by all means block that person.

    Like Kupo, I was also an admin. Admins did not write the confessions, they just posted them. This is the biggest problem I have with your "KNOWN members" comment, so we posted on a site you do not like, that doesn't mean we should come in here and then get infractions because some people can't wrap their minds around that the Admins were not writing the posts! I liked the page, it gave me a chance to say things to people that I cannot say here.

    Here is the original thought, and one I have typed up before. DON'T BE THE VICTIM, do whatever is in your power to not let them get into your head. Show some fortitude and stand up for yourself (btw this is not directed at you Alex, this goes for anyone). Don't paint the mods into a corner trying to get them to be the "Thought police".

    If you want to "police" by what people have done in the past, we should also give infractions for lying, backing out of trades, etc.

    This is directed at you, I don't think you are mentally tough or mature enough to keep it impartial. If you want to start a rights movement I don't think a pin forum is the place to do it. Again, DPF has an ignore feature!

    I disagree with a new infraction system, and if you think I am just saying this to save my own butt, you are completely mistaken. If the time comes that I have to make a post to make a point, I will do it knowing that I will get infractions and or banning for it.

    I think the forum has changed due to the influx of new traders and the loss of older traders. All forums go through this. Continuing to post about the Confessions page (which is gone) keeps the drama going.


    As Steph posted so long ago in this thread, it is not up to DPF to police the internet.
     
  8. ElysionsPrincess

    ElysionsPrincess Love Thaws a Frozen Heart!

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    Please read all of my posts before making a reply. For a lot of what you have just wrote has been answered by me right above your comment.

    Perhaps I am not emotionally tough enough. But perhaps these people participating in these harassing behaviors are not mature enough to realize that people's emotions are valid.

    I feel that a lot of the members attacked are the ones known to have emotional instability, or are young and "emotionally immature," as you would have it. Which is really twisted and sick. Preying on those who are weaker or younger than you is simply messed up. It is a conscious decision and is purposefully executed by the individual's own free will.

    While I may not be emotionally sound (and I will admit it), I think I am mature enough to look out for the sake of others. I am trying to convey my thoughts in the best manner I find possible. I just simply want a resolution for all of this nonsense and to enact a way to prevent it from happening again.

    People are not at fault for being made victims. People that harass people are the ones at fault for harassing them. Those are the facts and there is no subjectivity about that. If people would stop using things from DPF as fuel for these outside sources, there would be no victims to protect. It is a vicious cycle that can be ended by punishing those who are wronging people. It would create less work and stress for everyone. And there would be less blow-outs here on DPF, if tensions were not allowed to build for so long. I just feel that the level of tolerance for drama has increased more and more and has now gotten to a point where it is astronomically high.

    As I have stated before and will state again, yes. You can ignore someone here. But they can still see you, and that is the problem. They will still use anything you say or do to rip you down and tear you up. And for what? Why? What satisfaction to people get for saying such awful things? There is no reason for it and it should not be tolerated. Period.
     
  9. MotherKnowsBest

    MotherKnowsBest Member

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    I am sure some would see this conversion today as "drama" and I do think that word gets thrown around way to frequently and should be defined a little. Personally I see this as a interesting debate more than drama. There are several valid points being presented and as long as it stays civil…..

    First off I don't think there is a way that the mods can do anything about what is being proposed. It takes a lot to be a Mod and not everyone cut out to do it…. that is why there are so few of them as it is on DPF. The current mods can barely keep up with things as it is and you are asking them to take it outside of this forum and deal with stuff posted on another site?

    Alex, you said that "I don't think the internet should be policed" yet (in my opinion) that is exactly what giving infractions or banning someone here for actions somewhere else would do.
     
  10. Rasputin

    Rasputin VIP Gold List

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    Sorry but some of us are at work, and it took me awhile to get back to what I was writing earlier.

    IT is not going to stop them, can't you get that point, somewhere, almost everywhere someone's feeling are going to get hurt because someone said something "bad" about them. Guess what, that is part of life. There are people everywhere that (I know this is shocking) aren't nice.

    Who has been attacked? When were they attacked? What was said in the attack? Show me facts, show me. Just because you say that doesn't mean it is true.

    There is a perfect way, ignore and block those you think are doing it. What do you want the mods to do? Go to their houses and give them a stern lecture?

    I want to know how you can "punish those who are wronging people"? What criteria will you use? How will you prove it? Will this be used to lets say, punish those that lie, what about those that release secrets? Those are wronging people. Will those fall under the same guidelines?

    You cannot police what other people say about you or anyone else. As my wife stated ANYONE can see things on this forum, on Instagram, on twitter, FB, etc. If you want to protect yourself, don't put things out there that you think can be used to "emotionally" damage you.
     
  11. ElysionsPrincess

    ElysionsPrincess Love Thaws a Frozen Heart!

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    There is a difference between policing and moderating, however. Policing would be the absurd notion that every comment or incident would deserve repercussions, while moderating would be the notion that extreme cases of harassment that are documented could deserve some punishment. As we have discussed, what determines cases as "extreme" would be a whole conversation in itself, but I think it would be valid to have. :)

    Perhaps I am not best suited to be a mod lol, but I guess I was just trying to say I would be the type of person who would be willing to do it. I would hope someone more level-headed than myself would feel the same? And if it wasn't a new branch of moderation, that would be okay too! I just think it would be enough to just elaborate on the drama infraction rule, to clear confusion and to hopefully prevent cross-website and DPF drama as a whole.
     
  12. ILuvAriel922

    ILuvAriel922 Active Member

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    Just wanted to point out that Fordracing's comment was posted 5 minutes before mine; therefore I didn't see it as I was already typing my lengthy response. Had I seen it prior to posting, I would have refrained from doing so. I'm not arguing about this...just expressing my concerns and frustrations. I didn't realize it would cause such an enormous response. At least, even though we have a passionate discussion going on here...people are remaining civil and cordial with one another; why can't it always be like this? Just a thought...
     
  13. MotherKnowsBest

    MotherKnowsBest Member

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    Everyone has feelings and everyone has a boiling point, some are higher than others. People will have very different reactions to the same comment, what may be a "whatever" thing to me may leave someone else in tears and online you never know how a comment will be taken. Something that I would judge to be harmless could have the potential to hurt someone else. You are very passionate about your feelings and I am sure your friends would love to have you looking out for them. But the point is to remain impartial, someone who feels like they are a victim should not be the one responsible for mediating between two opposing sides. They will ALWAYS choose the victims side.

    If you want to be an advocate agains internet bullying PLEASE do, there need to be more people with that kind of passion.

    I have said this time and time again….there will always be people online that will say hurtful stuff, it is up to the individual as to how they handle it. If I was emotionally unable to deal with some of the things I have recently been made aware of I would remove myself completely from the situation. (i.e. that is why I made my Facebook private and watch like a hawk what I post. I will not provide the fuel for my own burning.)

    Plain and simple as long as DPF remains a public site (where complete strangers can access posts without being a member) anyone can potentially use what you post however they want, and until there are better laws preventing things like this it will continue to happen. I don't see any way how some anonymous post, or known members that comment on it should be held accountable for what they do on a different site? It is the other sites responsibility to account for the actions/posts on their site isn't it?

    To help make my point… I could log out here, screen cap this whole thread, make up some phony alt ID's and post this thread in every single pin forum in existence and as long as I cover my tracks…. no one would be able to say beyond a doubt it was me. Some would get really upset about something like this while others just wouldn't care. (please keep in mind I would never really do this!)
     
  14. hopemax

    hopemax DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    The problem is that bullying does not contain itself within the boundaries of a website. It commonly flows from one place to another. Bullies use this to their advantage, so they can follow people around, get in their faces in what seems like an innocuous manner, unless someone is aware of the full context. No ONE place can do anything, because its all in the bits and pieces, there is no "smoking gun." It's the summation of the instances and involvement, which is the real problem. One place described it as, "Bullies know the loopholes." DPF basically has provided a framework in which people can continue their bullying, by laying out the lines of exactly what they can and can't do. Don't refer to a person by name, don't send PMs, etc. They even apparently have permission to "bait" people, because any response and the victim is deemed equally as culpable. Since victims are chosen, in part because of their predictable responses, it is easy to predict what would happen. Course, victims are also chosen for their "unlikability" within the forum already. People don't like coming to the aid of someone who is already ostracized, so things that if they were directed toward a more "favored member" are allowed to slide or that person deserves what they get.

    I have seen a website go "beyond its borders." Several years ago, a group that was unhappy with the moderation of the DIS boards, set up something called the Unoriginal DIS Troublemakers, with a sub board called the Circle of Sarcasm. The Circle of Sarcasm, was very much like the Facebook pages, except that if the FB pages were a 10, this site was about a 5. They took posts from the DIS, they snarked about people, outright made fun of certain people, but even they did not stoop to the vulgarities that I was able to see, and it sounds like what I saw was the tip of the iceberg. The DIS did ban people for their participation on this other site. Since it was anonymous, not everyone got banned, and probably in some cases the wrong person got banned, but as I have previously stated private websites, do have the ability to ban arbitrarily. There needs not to be an application of fairness.

    I get why people think that trying to be "fair" is better. But the actual result is that the bullies are allowed an extraordinary amount of freedom to continue to be a bully. While the victim has to continually watch what they say, lest they fall into a baited trap, or to stop what they are saying from becoming fodder for the bully somewhere else. If not being forced to leave a place entirely. Of course, bullies don't stop when they've won, they just move on to new targets, and the cycle repeats, inflicting even more rounds of forum drama.
     
  15. tinkerbelle1956

    tinkerbelle1956 Active Member

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    Cicada, I'm getting back to what this thread was initially about. I have a lot of members on my ignore list. Will the quotes also be blocked. Obviously I can't block everyone, but if that person is on my ignore list, I do not wish to read negativity.
     
  16. ElysionsPrincess

    ElysionsPrincess Love Thaws a Frozen Heart!

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    I very much understand what you are saying. Of course anyone can see the forum and use anything they see here to get at others (for whatever reason they feel the need to do so).

    My point is that those who are proved to have correlation between DPF and Facebook (as known members with known names), should be getting infractions for excessive harassing behavior. Facebook is kind of a free-for-all, and they don't really moderate it very seriously. It took months and months to get Confessions removed, unfortunately. But what I am trying to say is that if there were a system here that punished people for participating in such horrible action,(which mind you, was a very select few, under a very select few circumstances. Of which I would love to go and screen cap but cannot because the page is gone! Sorry for the lack of examples :( ), the harassment may have stopped being so severe. Would it have stopped all together? No way! People will always say things that they want to, and they are in fact entitled to hold opinions about people (whether they are hurtful or not). But there is a difference between a foully-worded statement and saying someone should kill themselves, for example (this would be an extreme case, IMO).

    As I have stated, I know that I myself cannot remain impartial. But maybe someone out there could, or if there was a rule in place, a moderator who is already impartial could handle these types of situation (as rare as they would arise), in a level-headed manner.

    I honestly don't think this type of thing is going to occur frequently any longer. At least, I hope it does not. I just think that if it does happen again, there should be some kind of prevention policy in effect. So many threads were posted here about people having stuff said about them on Confessions, it is heart breaking. It would be a happier and friendlier environment for everyone if such a thing were to exist.

    Just to re-iterate once more, in case I was confusing;
    I do not think there is any stopping people from doing or saying what they want on other sites (or at all, ever, really). However I do think there is stopping people from having the freedom to continue to go about their collecting lives here on DPF if they are known to have engaged in this type of behavior in extreme measures (NOT opinions, but threatening and completely out-of-line attacks, and the like).
     
  17. MotherKnowsBest

    MotherKnowsBest Member

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    By moderating other privately owned websites you are in fact in a way policing them. If I was the owner of said webpage where the mods from DPF were trying to tell my members what they were posting on my site was right or wrong I would be a little ticked off as it would be my site and it would fall to me to decide what is acceptable or not.
     
  18. MotherKnowsBest

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    I don't think you are fully grasping the point….As long as said parties can coexist HERE without conflict. Why would it matter what was done elsewhere, that is a issue for the other site to deal with NOT dpf mods.
     
  19. jennisney

    jennisney Princess Collector c:

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    It's sad that bullying happens :(. But I agree that moderating other websites wouldn't be fair and the mods should moderate the behaviour on DPF only and if something happens on another website people should use the block feature on that website to stop the person being mean!

    I know how hard it can be to be the victim of bullying from personal experience and I know from experience that blocking the person causing the problem does make it easier :). Also ignoring them, because they will just get bored if you don't give them anything to bite onto :)

    The Internet is always going to filled with "trolls" and people being mean but it's just best to ignore it and not let it get to you and I think getting DPF mods involved in other websites would just be a bad idea!

    Sorry to get involved!! If my post offends anyone, I'm sorry!
     
  20. chroll

    chroll Active Member

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    All that would happen is people would stop using their real FB accounts and start using fake ones to post mean things.
     
  21. ElysionsPrincess

    ElysionsPrincess Love Thaws a Frozen Heart!

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    Facebook is not a site which is moderated by individuals and is certainly not as close-knit as we are supposed to be here on DPF. To protect the members of this close knit group there should be repercussions for those that are known to be harassing others on sites such as Facebook. No one is going to punish them there. And if they do, they won't care. But punishing them here might actually do something.
    This site is privately owned and yet we still have moderators. Are the moderators then policing, because they are moderating their privately owned website?

    And people can act nice on here to save face and then act monstrous on Facebook and show their true colors (as has been seen). Is that fair, to deceive people here? If people on DPF trust a person and share personal information with them because they trust them (because they act nice here), and then a person turns around and uses that against that person, how is that the victim's fault? Why should the harasser be protected in that way? Can people just knowingly have two sides to themselves, and have it proved that they do it, and then continue to do it? This is what I am not understanding, and what I think needs to be fixed.

    It is safe to say that neither of us are "missing the point," just that we have very different views on what the point is and what it entails. This is certainly just a situation where we agree to disagree, because at this point I feel everyone has said what they believe/think/feel, and anything further will just result in talking in circles. From this point on it is better to let the mods read over this discussion and make their decisions based upon it.
     
  22. Rasputin

    Rasputin VIP Gold List

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    Alex how are you going to prove what people said? The page is gone? If we are going to give infractions because someone said something bad on FB then lets give infractions here for threads that are:

    Whiney or needy
    Threads with TMI (too much information)

    Hell why don't we give infractions because someone overbid on an auction!

    You really need to let the Confessions thing go, it is gone. DPF has stated that they will do nothing about it! IT IS OVER.

    Now if you want to change your forum title to "Thought Police" and monitor threads and then give a stern talking to the poster that you think is being "bullying or hurtful", then all means be my guest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  23. dancecats

    dancecats Administrator Staff Member DPF Administrator

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    Thank you all for your feedback. You have given DPF Staff much to review and discuss, which is appreciated. As it seems like the discussion is becoming repetitive now, this thread will close, but remain here for your further reading.
     
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