Have Fantasy pins replaced DisneyShopping/Disney Auctions pins?

Discussion in 'Disney Pin Discussion' started by ladyroselie, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    I was browsing the #disneypins hashtag on Instagram this morning and an idea started forming in my mind: there is just a glut of fantasy pins, why is that?

    I like to see how people display their pins and do flat lays, but it often ends up being one or two authentic pins and then a whole bunch of fantasy pins. Not just rare characters either, like Charlotte or Miss Bunny, but Ariel, Rapunzel, and Aurora too. I wondered why so many people would spend their money on pins that may not be easily tradable or hold their value when they could be saving up money and getting authentic pins instead (even if some of those pins are many times their original price now).

    Then it hit me! Fantasy pins (can be) large and beautiful, and the pre-orders and sales are done online with fixed prices or auctions, if you get in early the prices are often reasonable. They are attainable for people who do not live near the parks or the Soda Fountain. They allow people to collect special and low LE pins, get them online, and other fantasy collectors will want them and sometimes pay an inflated price after sell out.

    I wonder, and I want your opinion, do you all think that if Disney was still doing more frequent low LE releases online fantasy pins would wane? People want to buy pins, and Disney isn't giving them enough if they don't live near a park. I kind of want a petition for Disney to bring back their old methods so that more collectors can have access and more trading can happen (with less price gouging). Basically I think we need more pretty and low LE (500 or less) pins to come out regularly online to keep the hobby fresh and allow non-local collectors to have a chance, and if the fantasy pin trend dies out or slows because of that I won't shed any tears.

    Please let em know your thoughts!!!
     
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  2. cadien

    cadien Well-Known Member

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    Well as someone who lives nowhere near a park and cannot visit every year, I naturally agree. Auction pins were consistently some of the most attractive designs. But really that would be a bonus. Just being able to buy anything directly is appreciated.
     
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  3. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    I think that the stunning silhouettes and park packs are great and I'm glad we got those online. However, it really is a shame that some of the most beautiful designs are either from the past or fantasy pins now. You are right though, attainable would be best, like why can't DSSH do an online and an in person release every time and split up the pins released? It would allow more opportunity for actual trading!
     
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  4. starry_solo

    starry_solo Judge of the Dark Court Staff Member DPF Super Moderator

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    As someone who lives near a park (but doesn't go) as well as DSSH, but doesn't have connections to WDI pins, I do believe that fantasy pins have replaced DA/DS pins in that they are beautiful designs. However, there are some that pre-sell for high amounts ($30-50+). If you think about it, if you just held onto the funds and waited to get the older pins, instead of buying the FPs, about 5-10 FPs later, you'd have the money for the higher priced auctions/shopping pins.

    As far as rarity, sometimes one wonders whether the LE is actually the size that is set, or whether there are others out there. I know, in the beginning, some FP makers would have the entire run re-done, so that a LE100 would actually be a LE200, due to some type of coloring flaw. And some of the pins are just fugly.

    Someone does the Harry Potter/Disney mash-ups (YENSIDS) and those are gorgeous. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get into that group to get them :p
    Someone else does "Masterpiece" pins....but they are all masterpieces that Disney has already done.
     
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  5. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    I definitely like the mash-ups and other unique things that FP makers do, it is just when they make a standard character in a new pose or even a reused pose that bothers me. I think the issue is two-fold, Disney needs to step up their designs and also their accessibility. I really don't understand why they do big beautiful pins for cast members only, and do a ton of lower LE's for the soda fountain and then don't put that much online. I understand making DSSH a special "pin destination", but my understanding is that it is mostly locals who get to the big releases. I just wonder if the hobby will have a bit of a crash if Disney doesn't change their strategy. Just my musings really....
     
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  6. cadien

    cadien Well-Known Member

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    What really doesn't make sense about that is that they're really not for cast members. There's lip service, but they're resold before they're even in hand. And I've ranted about this before, but charging $16 for something they know will immediately resell for $200 is ridiculous. It just frustrates everyone. Set them at $50, make them available to the general public, and everyone is happier. Except for the tiny number of professional resellers. And it's got to be more profitable. I really don't understand the business argument behind weakly pretending the pins are CM exclusive. Unless it's supposed to justify the lower wages.
     
  7. starry_solo

    starry_solo Judge of the Dark Court Staff Member DPF Super Moderator

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    I seriously think it's to justify the lower wages for park employees. Look, we'll pay you $10/hr and then you can spend 1.5x that on a pin you can resell for more. Yeah, you're not supposed to do that (against the terms & conditions of employment) but hey, it's better than having to pay $20/hr. LOL.

    Seriously, though, if Disney really wanted to limit it, they would limit it to the people actually working at WDI (most of those jobs are better paying than park jobs).
     
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  8. Abyssinian28

    Abyssinian28 DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    I think that the lack of large, beautiful Disney pins definitely helped create the void that Fantasy pins stepped into.

    I think Disney ignoring popular AND obscure characters also helped. There was a period, back when the princess wave gaining traction, that you couldn't find a new princess pin to save your life. They've been a little better about this in recent years, but it was bad there for a while. When you're not producing and people are wanting and waiting, it's not a good thing.

    I think that if Disney started large pin sales again it might put a small dent in Fantasy pins, but it wouldn't end them. WDI is filling that void a little right now, but easier access would be needed for it to have a big impact.

    Pandora's box has been opened regarding Fantasy pins, and just like fanart, it would take something huge to kill it. People will always want to see their own artwork as a pin, or will always want to see their own ideas/visions realized. Now that the "how to do it" is out there and more widespread, I doubt it will go away. Plus, there are things that Disney just CAN'T or WON'T do, like crossovers, or certain themes.

    The main thing that might impact Fantasy pins would be money. If Disney rolled out a weekly release system again, people on tight budgets might have to start choosing between official pins and fantasy pins. But as long as trading is around, I'm not sure how big a deal that would be...it might weed down the producers a little, or the number of pins that come out in a year, but my guess is that it wouldn't impact it much at all.
     
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  9. Zack_attack

    Zack_attack Member

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    I think what turns me off from the whole fantasy pin craze is the fact that for the most part it's an opportunity for people to profiteer off intellectual property they do not own. Many "artists" just create these pins for the aftermarket. It's very easy for creators of these pins to see what types of pins sell well or are sought after. It's no coincidence that we see an influx of those types of themes being created. Mermaid princesses, profiles, villain scenes, beloved tales, these pins stop being creative for me when I feel like they are designed solely to make a profit. We really have no true idea how many are made nor will we ever know if an artist orders another run if they see their pins are selling very high. Someone might claim it's LE 20, LE 50, LE 100, but we are supposed to take the word of people just looking to make a quick buck? I trust Disney when it comes to edition sizes, with the exception of scrappers they tend to be accurate and have a track record to back that up, but fantasy pin artists have nothing to stand behind in terms of their honesty and integrity and it's a bit much to accept their word as they ask $500 for their beloved tales profile Rapunzel pin. I don't care what anyone says, there is absolutely no way any fantasy pin, no matter how good it might be, is worth $200+. They are glorified counterfeit pins that really should not exist beyond the ones people create for fun and do not resell as part of their livelihood.

    At the end of the day they are not Disney pins. If people buy them and collect them, that's their business. I would never criticize or judge someone for collecting them and enjoying them if they truly like those pins. But I'd highly advise against investing of these in hopes of them becoming as valuable as the Disney Auctions pins from the old days. That day will never come.
     
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  10. tiggeriffic

    tiggeriffic DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    I can't understand why they don't have a constant flow of new pins on Shop Disney. They used to do weekly releases, so that offered a lot a people the opportunity to get new LE pins. Right now, Box Lunch has a more interesting flow of Disney pins and they are clearly putting out more and more so they must be selling well. Those aren't even limited edition pins. For pins, Box Lunch is more interesting than Disney's own merchandise site. They are missing out on huge sales profits and collectors lose out as well.
     
  11. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    Thank you for sharing your perspectives everyone :D

    @Abyssinian28 I see what you mean about it being like fan art. I personally just wonder if Disney will crack down on cease and desist since it is closer to products they sell then some other types. I do find it interesting that some artists who do fan art get to do collections for Wonderground. I think Disneyland Paris has done some collab pins, but I don't know if those creators were doing pins or just art.

    @Zack_attack and @tiggeriffic I think both of your points are spot on!
     
  12. Abyssinian28

    Abyssinian28 DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    Yeah, to me, the problem has always been when they start to make a profit on it. It's one thing to sell your fanart print at cost so that someone can have it on their walls (but better to let them print it themselves, honestly), but it's a completely different thing to rake in huge profits using someone else's copyrighted work. As someone who is both an artist/writer, and a fan who likes fanart and reading fanfiction, I see both sides of the issue. Which is where "play for fun, not profit" really comes into play.

    Re: the Wonderground stuff...I've long wondered why Disney hasn't approached popular fanartists and been like, "We love your work, we'd like to buy it from you/make you a Disney artist". I think that's what we're starting to see, which is awesome. Because at the end of the day, even if Disney owns the characters, the artist still owns their vision, skill, and time invested in creating that specific piece of art. I think buying their effort is much better than throwing their corporate weight around with cease and desist orders. They gain more from selling the work, anyway.

    Zack_attack laid out a lot of the reasons that I haven't gotten into fantasy pins. I have seen some I absolutely love, but I feel weird paying more for them than what it costs to bring them into existence. It's already far too mercenary and profit-centric for my tastes...especially for a non-authentic item. I think the art is amazing, and don't hate the idea of them at all, but I'm concerned about how many people will think they're legit 10 years down the line. Do they all stamp something like "Not a Disney pin" on the back?
     
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  13. starry_solo

    starry_solo Judge of the Dark Court Staff Member DPF Super Moderator

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    No they don't. Not all FPs have marks on the back (it costs extra because of another mold).
     
  14. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    I wonder about that too @Abyssinian28 ... I know I get confused a bunch, especially when people put FPs on real pin cards and take a picture, happens sometimes but not too often. I suppose it is all about making sure that a pin actually does say "Disney" somewhere on it.
     
  15. Abyssinian28

    Abyssinian28 DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    Yeah, look for the presence of "Disney" to verify, rather than a disclaimer to disqualify, since it costs money to stamp the back...
     
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  16. bcol

    bcol "They call me Bruce" ....and mupins

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    Some of us collectors started with fantasy pins because of the lack of imagination of the Disney staff (or maybe what they were allowed to do). We have seen the same character in the same pose on a different background or grouped slightly different. There is so much story to tell and the Disney people were letting it go untold. Turn the page to Fantasy pins, lesser characters started showing up in some truly wonderful pins, some were a continuation on a released theme as new movies came out, and others were "mash-ups" similar to the Stitch series. Disney dropped the ball and artists picked it up. As Disney releases started showing up that I willing to buy, my FP's have dropped off to almost zero, but I think there will always be a market for pins I consider art and the artists interpretation of what Disney is. My two cents.
     
  17. ladyroselie

    ladyroselie Water Talent Fairy

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    I think that is an excellent point @bcol . I was mostly thinking about how some of the newer fantasy pins have fallen into Disney's same trap with similar poses and characters. I think new interpretations can be beautiful, but some of it just doesn't work. I'm specifically thinking of all the "designer" interpretations here, they really run the gamut from beautiful and a continuation of the 2011 series to just plain unattractive...

    Disney really should allow/ask the artists to do more poses and scenes. Though, I am super excited for the WIR 2 princess and Vanollope mystery set because of how creative it looks. I want the whole thing :D
     
  18. Romancing_Train

    Romancing_Train EVERYPONY calm the buck down!

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    As a fantasy pin maker I honestly try my best to just do what I like. I like to come up with new things to test out metals and try to interpret my artwork differently.

    I can say with many I'd the makers I think the le is always higher, however most people order 5-10 extras because you can get some super bad flaws from time to time.

    I can also say that pins in GENERAL have blown up pheonominally. The gothic scene, birds, moths, Halloween, sailor moon, anything and everything, not just fantasy, have become super duper mega popular in the last two years. I do think it's because of fantasy pins, but that being said a lot of people treat their companies super poorly. I've heard of people saying their run was bad to get a free extra 100 pins.

    It's made things way harder for fantasy pin makers. I actually charge far below the going prices for my presales, but it's getting harder and harder to keep that going with the increasing prices.
     
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  19. bcol

    bcol "They call me Bruce" ....and mupins

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    It's sad that people have to take advantage of others to make a fast buck.
    The factories are trying to keep their costs low, which in a way, hurts us when scrappers show up and bring the whole thing down.
    Some makers are trying to get extra pins or lower costs by cheating the factories while others are setting prices of their pins over $75 directly "out of store". Disney pins used to increase in value according to LE and wants but it usualy happened over an extended period of time. Now is not the case, but at least it goes through one buyer before it gets out of control. It's like it goes into hyper speed when only a few can buy them.
    I feel for the honest makers who are trying to fill the gap of what we want, that Disney does not care to make. I feel for the Disney in-house designers that get frustrated by the red tape. Oh, I almost forgot, I feel for the collectors too, because, why not? I shouldn't say this out loud but I am almost happy (happy really isn't the right word) to pay double the price for a newly released pin . We have seen some innovative designs and use of new materials by Disney recently. Perhaps we need to thank the FP people for opening eyes.

    P.S. When to whine and complain? Mondays work for me :rolleyes:
     
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  20. Romancing_Train

    Romancing_Train EVERYPONY calm the buck down!

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    I can't take credit but I do feel like Disney obviously 100% knows and is aware of what people want in pins because of fantasy pins.

    Never thought to make a powerline pin until there was several fantasy pins right? Even though it us boxed lunch at least one creative team US watching. Maybe I had a hand in the ghost mufasa pin that came out last night? With all the people making profiles based on the old shopping/auctions ones, maybe that's how they realized they should do big series again.

    I don't know if many people know but Redbubble recently got permission to OFFICIALLY allow fanartists to profit off Disney. While people have been doing it for a while many companies actually signed up and partnered with them. Hot topic is running a few more contests for fan art to become Disney official clothing too. They might be trying to embrace it a little.
     
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  21. bcol

    bcol "They call me Bruce" ....and mupins

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    I totally agree with you. I think the FP’s have slapped Walt’s posse and shouted “wake up and smell the cat food!” (Old song) Some pins have now gone full circle such as this little beauty. Do you see a slight resemblance in the newer Disney pin?
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  22. firecracker

    firecracker Lurking Since '14

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    Late to the party but... I just recently started getting more into FP and I think a lot of the artwork on FP is far more creative than most of what Disney is putting out. I just hate that most LE FP releases are some sort of exclusive or secret club and if there is a design I really like then I am stuck paying second hand prices. I wish I understood how to get my hands on them during presale.
     
  23. Zack_attack

    Zack_attack Member

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    ^This is why I have an issue with fantasy pins. There shouldn't be a secondary market. Unlicensed/unauthorized fan art is not meant to be a collectible. The fact that some artists design them with the intention of being able to compete with legitimate Disney pins is greedy. There shouldn't be room for profit. There shouldn't be a rarity to them.

    There are no checks and balances with fantasy pins, anyone can manipulate the market and misrepresent what they have with little to no consequences. Anyone can also rip off other people's work without consequences. Beyond the cost of creating the pin, where exactly is the justification for charging more than cost? I am all for open and free market, but that also includes respecting intellectual property that someone does not retain ownership of. The fantasy pin market is nothing more than Disney's version of bitcoin. Disney needs to take a hard stance and start shutting down the pin artists and sellers who do it for profit and take advantage of a copyright they do not own and have no right to use.
     
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  24. KT07

    KT07 Well-Known Member

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    "Beyond the cost of creating the pin, where exactly is the justification for charging more than cost? I am all for open and free market, but that also includes respecting intellectual property that someone does not retain ownership of. "

    Great point. I think that some times people just justify things by saying "its not hurting anyone" or "Disney is big enough that it won't mater." That's not always the point. You either do things by the books or you don't.
     

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