The Disney 52 Animated Challenge: Year-Long Activity! NOW PLAYING: Nightmare Before Christmas

Discussion in 'DPF Game Room' started by MerlinEmrys, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

    Rating - 100%
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    1. I think this film is quite underrated. While not my favorite of the underrated movies of this era, it does have charm. The characters are distinct and mostly likeable, and it has some intense, memorable scenes (like the toy store and Big Ben). It can be a bit frenetic at times, but that matches with Basil's thought process.

    Character narration is back! At least, for the first part of the movie. I'm not always a fan of it since it breaks the fourth wall, but I liked its use in this film. It gave us a bit of backstory about Dawson and referenced the fact that this was based on a storybook.

    HOLY DANG is the scene inside of Big Ben impressive! (NO CAPES!!!) The sheer scale of the gears compared to the characters, the use of shadow and light within the scene, . The moment inside the clock is actually a lot shorter than it feels like it should be, which is a testament to its impressiveness.


    3. I'm going to stray a bit from this, if that's ok. (If not then I can add another question.)

    When watching, I couldn't help comparing the seedy bar scene to the saloon scene from another animated movie from this era - Fievel Goes West. Comparing the two, you can see the crossing of Disney and Don Bluth - this was during the period of Bluth's upswing and Disney's decline.



    In Great Mouse Detective, the animation on the saloon mouse singing Let Me Be Good To You is minimal - half the time her facial expression didn't change, and it seemed as if sometimes her mouth didn't even really move. The rest of the action during this scene lacked dynamism to me as well. I can't put my finger on what exactly makes it this way, but it seemed to serve the purpose of just getting the characters from Point A to Point B. No new characters were introduced that have any bearing on the rest of the movie. They're just there to be there, and to provide a third song. We don't get to see any real progression or deviation of characterization either, except for maybe Dawson acting goofy when drugged. But this doesn't really reflect in his character later on, he just goes back to how he's acted up until this scene. They really could have cut this entire scene out and gone directly to Basil and Dawson finding Ratigan's lair, and the movie wouldn't be missing out on anything of importance.

    On the other hand, the saloon scene from Fievel Goes West was beautifully animated in every frame. The characters are detailed and the action serves a purpose. The scene served to advance the characters, especially Tanya, and she grew from who she was at the start of the scene to who she was at the end. The scene was integral to the movie, and it would be difficult to replace it or cut it out without changing the movie for the worse.


    4. The music in this movie is interesting. There is more than in some movies (like Black Cauldron, whose music was instrumental background music) but less than in traditional musical movies. I did note that all of the songs are sung by "villainous" characters - two of the three are sung by Ratigan and his henchmen, and the third is by the saloon mouse (while she isn't an outright villain, she does perform in a bar known to be patronized by them). I think this is the first musical movie we've had where the hero doesn't get any songs. This plays into the "sissy villain" trope - Ratigan is overtly theatrical, from his outfit to his mannerisms to his flair for the dramatic with Basil's deathtrap. The song that plays most into this is Goodbye So Soon. This song is a melodramatic ode to Ratigan's self-congratulation. He sees himself as a mastermind, and is so sure of himself that he's recorded a victory song before he even captures Basil.



    9. Basil and Ratigan have an almost symbiotic relationship. They both love to best the other, and take pride when they outsmart each other. So my most iconic shot had to include both of them battling each other; since Big Ben is such a memorable scene, I knew a shot from there had to be it.

    [​IMG]


    10. As crazy as it seems, it looks like pinpics shows zero pins of Basil and Ratigan fighting, and very few of them even together on the same pin! So I'm going with the next best thing - Basil on the case!

    [​IMG]

    Pin# 94312 - DSF - Beloved Tales - The Great Mouse Detective


    Random Thoughts


    [​IMG]

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!


    This pin makes me laugh. Of the three songs, they chose to use the one that Ratigan *doesn't* sing as the song for a Ratigan pin. It almost makes it look like Ratigan is seducing Basil.

    [​IMG]

    Pin# 17421 - Magical Musical Moments - Let Me Be Good To You
     
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  2. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0

    Trying once more to take part and post something like an analyse. I didn't manage the past two weeks although I tried. Only managed to watch a small portion of the films. :(
    1. What is your overall impression of the film? Some possible talking points include: what you did or did not like about it; what about the film has stuck with you; what did you find different on this viewing; how would modern audiences respond to this (for the older films)… The list goes on. Hahah!
    This one is another movie I watched for the first time – I know only a few of the older ones. But this time I have a valid excuse: this one got a hun dub only last year. So I did not know this movie existed and as a child I would not have understood it as I did not know enough english. I watched it mainly with the english dub but switched over from time to time to listen to the hungarian voices. It wasn’t bad but I’m used to much better dubs from my childhood. I enjoyed this one nevertheless. It is very much childrens version of Sherlock Holmes. And he can teach a lot about the world.

    2. Choose one specific character to analyze. You can explore how a character acts, what they say, how they dress, etc. to explain what they may represent or their function and meaning in the narrative. Try to avoid obvious "plot" stuff (ex: the Evil Queen is a villain, so her purpose is to be bad...), but explore unique and specific elements about the character (ex: the EQ is surrounded by images of peacocks, further suggesting her obsession with vanity). You may also use these elements to explain why you connected or disconnected from the character.

    Basil was my favourite of the bunch so he is an obvius choice. He’s a typical deteciva and lot like Sherlock Holmes – well Homes is somewhat the archetype of a successfull detctive. Basil is like that, too but much less machine-like and much more human (although he is a mouse) he’s sometimes down (when captured in Ratigans trap) and shows an emotional reaction when Dawson blames himself because Olivia was kidnapped. I don’t think Sherlock would have don these – but a character with that cold mask as Sherlock Holmes is oftern described, would seem really odd to children.
    Basil’s brown – a good color for disguise that is one of his trademarks but that doesn’t really count because many mice were brown, including Ratigans own henchmen. (Well at least his coat is brown, too.) I like that he has this keen expression most of the time, to make him more like a detective even if it meant that he did not look as friendly. (That’s Dawsons job, anyway.) And the story is not from his point of view although he is clearly the main character, I think it adds a misterious touch to the character.
    I think that mostly Basil is the brain and Dawson is the heart.

    3. Choose one specific scene or sequence to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? Your analysis could include the scene’s use of color, action, camera angles, music, character development, setting, backdrop, style, etc. If you can justify it with evidence from the scene, then it’s an analysis!
    I choose that scene towards the end in the Big Ben. That clockwork might represent the brains of those running around there. Rattigan is trapped – thanks to Basil and I think he’s obsessed with the thought of destroying Basil. Both his real and symbolic brain almost kills him because of Basil. Well in the end, it does actually kill him but not at that specific point but a little later.
    Basils brains works a little faster and I think he knows more about how to actually think logically so he could use his symbolic and real brain to rescue Olivia in time. Hmmm. I may have to think about this a little longer.
    It mostly prepares the big finale, it leads to the climax of the story and is has us, viewers on the edge of our seats.

    4. Choose one song to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? What purpose does this song have in the film and does it succeed in that purpose?
    There were not many songs to choose from and Rattigans big villain song immediately reminded me of Gaston from Beauty and the Beast and the song that is only about praising him – just like this one, it is one long praising of that rat. It tells everything about the villain – he’s ruthless, he loves to be praised, he loves to hear how great he is and thinks very hightly of himself. We also get to know that he and Basil already know and despise each other. He reminds me sometimes of a vampire. Must be his clothes. (Or his enchanting smile.)

    5. Choose one specific symbol in the film to analyze. A symbol is typically something inanimate, an object, rather than a character. So don’t say “Brer Bear represents dumb people,” as that’s more of a character analysis than a symbol. Rather, think about specific objects (jewelry, clothing, houses, food, weapons, etc.) What does this symbol mean and how does that meaning impact the film?
    I think I’ll choose the bell. It stands for life and death, whenever its sound is heard, someone dies and the bigger the bell, the significanter the one who dies. (Ratigan wouldn’t be satisfied with anything less than a big church bell. Too bad we are in London, he would have wanted the Belles of the Notre Dame for himself) Basil shaking the bell means he tells him it’s time for you to go. It also means that he has control over his life, I mean they can’t kill him, although they try very hard and some very life threating things happen to him but he has the bell so he lives.

    6. Choose a single line of dialog that you find to be the most significant/impactful line in the film and why. You can be a little loose with the “single line” bit, but let’s not go for Maleficent’s entire monologue to Philip... Rather, something like Stitch’s “This is my family. I found it all on my own. It’s little, and broken, but still good. Yeah – still good.” (brb weeping).
    „Smile for the camera” or „Simle everyone” I think those two lines actually mean, everything is going according to my plan. First the villain says so and it certainly looks like everything goes just as he wants. But when Basil says it, that means actually the end of the plans of Ratigan. It is the storys most important element: villain has an evil plan but the hero foils it. I would have loved to see that photo and Rattigans reaction to it.

    7. What is this film’s overall goal? Is it to teach a specific lesson (what is it) or get an emotional response (such as)? Or both? And how well or poorly does the film succeed in that goal? Be specific!
    Mysteries are popular and are often read for entertainment purposes. In this case the crime itself is a mystery for quite a while but we know from the start who the criminal is. But those who want to learn, can find something to learn here, too. Like, if someone yoy know is much wiser than you tells you something to do or not to do, you better obey. He has his reasons, even if you can’t see them. Yes, I mean Olivia. She wasn’t particularly annoying but generally the situation that the kid is told to wait and not come along because it is dangerous yet the kid still does as he or she pleases. They always get their way and that is something I don’t really like. I think this is typically a child thing, I remember liking Ariel because she often disobeys her father. Umm strange. Now I don’t like that trait in Ariel. Maybe an explanation why this or that is or is not to be sone would help? I don’t know.
    As for the entertainment part, I think it succeeded there, it’s very enjoyable, and Basil with his Sherlock Holmes traits is quite different from the usual heroes.

    8. What connections or progressions do you see in this film to past films? Example: how does Sleeping Beauty progress (or digress?) the princess archetype built in Cinderella? Be specific! Also, consider what use there is in returning to or re-imagining those elements?
    I thought it also interesting that the characters are humanized animals, like in Robin Hood and Zootopia but humans still exist like in Aristocats or in Lady and the Tramp. It feels like a mixture of these two kinds of worlds.
    It feels like it has some connection to The Rescuers, too since it is about helping those in need and it is mice doing it in both cases.

    9. What is the iconic shot of the film? What single frame of animation do you find to be the most memorable and why? Post it! You can check out this link to find some great screencaps to help!
    It’s difficult to come up with one iconic moment, so I choose a typical detective moment – Basil looking closely at something with his magnifying glass, making his detective face.
    [​IMG]

    10. What single pin do you think best represents this film for you? Why? Give us the pin number and post a picture!
    It was very hard to find something iconic, so I just went with this pin showing some of the most important characters.
    Pin 128000
    [​IMG]

    Stray thoughts: When I first saw Basil I thought his design is spot on for Sherlock Holmes. I love to imagine how the characters look like while I read and I always had trouble with Holmes. From now on he'll be a mouse. :)
    That dog, Toby, is more like Columbos dog, I don' remember Holmes owning a dog (borrowing yes, owning no)

    Edit: corrected a bunch of typos and added a sentence or two (the one with the brown coat and the other one about Rattigans enchanting smile)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
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  3. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

    Rating - 100%
    51   0   0

    OK, I guess I’ve put this off for as long as I can. I’m not really sure why I was dreading this film, but perhaps it’s just that I’m not looking forward to doing this critique given the reprimand I received for my last one. Well, here goes…

    1. and 8. My overall impression of the movie…

    Of course this movie feels like a copy of the “Sherlock Holmes” because it is. Actually, it appears to be based on a book, which is apparently a copy of SH.

    I also find the characterization of Basil to be interesting (almost an answer for 2., but I chose someone else). As with Sherlock Holmes, Basil is depicted as brilliant and observant, but scattered and dismissive. In other words, both “thoughtful” and “thoughtless” at the same time.

    Much as I don’t particularly care for villains (especially if they are not cats), I have to say I kind of liked Fidget. He was a fun and entertaining character to watch, and he was able to outsmart Basil, which is no mean feat. I also like his voice.

    This movie also continues to use the trope of “animals connected to humans take on the personality and attributes of those people”. We first briefly saw it in “Lady and the Tramp” when the owner’s dogs all looked like their owners. We also saw in with reference to mice in “The Rescuers”, where all of the delegates to the Rescue Aid Society looked and dressed like the UN delegates in whose briefcases they all traveled. Now we have it in spades here in this movie. Basil is basically Sherlock Holmes’s mouse and the Queen Mouse is basically Queen Victoria’s mouse (to name but two).

    So what use is there in using this trope over and over again? I suppose it feels more like the Disney magic if the film is about talking animals rather than talking humans, and it does immediately set up expectations for these characters (assuming you know something about Sherlock Holmes or Queen Victoria). I am also wondering why Disney films have a fixation with mice in this trope—is it because of Mickey Mouse and Walt Disney’s penchant for him? Is it because, historically, humans and mice have cohabitated in the same domiciles? I don’t really know, to be honest…

    I will say that it bothered me a bit when we find out that Queen Mouse is ALSO celebrating her diamond jubilee when Queen Victoria did (can a mouse even LIVE 60 years???). I also wonder if Ratigan can even overthrow Queen Mouse if Queen Victoria still rules the humans…


    2. (and 8.) The character I chose to analyze was Felicia, because she’s a cat. She is a minor character; at first I thought she was just the “enforcer” for Ratigan, getting rid of his enemies (for often petty reasons). She ate the random drunk mouse who called Ratigan a rat (which he is…), then Ratigan fed Fidget to her (she didn’t eat him, but did chew up his ears quite a bit), and finally the mouse Queen was offered to Felicia but she never got to eat her either. But I felt like Felicia follows in the footsteps of Nero and Brutus from “The Rescuers” (and forebearers of Flotsam and Jetsam in “The Little Mermaid”) in that they are all dangerous animals serving as henchmen/enforcers for the villain, who views them as their precious pets that pose no threat whatsoever to the villain him/herself. At least in Felicia’s case, her evildoing is very much an instinctual thing (cats eat mice) and, much as with Si & Am, the animators are trying to paint normal animal behavior as villainous or contemptible actions. Also, as in “Lady and the Tramp” we again encounter the tired trope of “dogs good, cats bad”. Yawn. As such, I find Felicia (as with Si & Am) to be less compelling villains and more just normal cats.


    3. and 6. and 7. The the scene I chose to analyze was the one where Basil analyzes Fidget’s note (including a combustion analysis on it), and the line I chose to analyze came from Basil: “There’s always a chance, Doctor. As long as you can think.”

    The goal of the movie is very much a Sherlock Holmes moral—Embracing logic, scientific techniques, and systematic (deductive) thought processes will allow even the most difficult problem to be solved.

    The movie shows several instances of Basil being able to glean lots and seemingly pointless information from a quick analysis (when meeting Dawson, analyzing Fidget’s note, escaping Ratigan’s Rube Goldberg-style trap, the mysterious lady at the end of the movie). The analysis of Fidget’s note is a good example of that, and Basil learns something about the ink, the paper, the presence of coal, etc. The scene “amps up” the scientific part of Basil by having him perform a chemical analysis using a retort and distillation equipment, and carefully adding chemicals to beakers, which ALWAYS seem to lead to color changes for some reason… (NOT true in a traditional chemistry lab). Finally, Basil learns that there is salt in the paper and that means Ratigan is at the Riverfront.

    At first, I thought this was an example of non-science writers making stuff up. Because a Riverfront (AKA with a river) should have FRESH water, not SALT water. That’s what oceans have. But a quick google search shows that the river Thames in London is actually brackish, which means it has a fair amount of salt in the water. Disney writers, for the win.


    9. I chose the scene where Basil was performing scientific experiments to ascertain the origin of Fidget’s note, complete with the distillation apparatus.

    [​IMG]

    10. I was hoping to find a pin of Basil doing something scientific or thoughtful (but alas no pins of Basil and the retort). So I chose this pin (90950) that shows Basil with a magnifying class, a pin with a sufficiently “Sherlock Holmes” feel to it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  4. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    Although two of us have analyzed the symbolism of the bell, neither mentioned the idea of: "Never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
     
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  5. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I have to admit I had to look this one up :oops:
     
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  6. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
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    1. Overall Impression
    I adore this movie, so I’ll openly admit my bias here, hahah! But I think this film is criminally underrated. The depth of character is one of the best so far (again, perhaps my bias to Basil), and I think the voice acting was really superb. Who doesn’t love Vincent Price!? In several ways, I think this film really kicks off the modern story-telling and film-making trends we see in the Renaissance and beyond. This film isn’t perfect by any means, but I saw a lot of groundwork being laid here for later “A-List” films.

    Overall, this film has a lot of heart, copious action and intrigue, and no single part really drug on longer than it needed. Even the side characters like Olivia’s father (voiced by Scrooge!) had enough development that nothing in the film felt flat.


    2. Character Analysis
    Despite my love for Basil, I want to consider Ratigan a bit more closely. @NutMeg brought up a while ago with Hook the idea of the foppish villain, and Ratigan is probably one of the major contributors to that trope. From his speech pattern to how he stands very much reads as effeminate:

    [​IMG]

    But what’s interesting about Ratigan is that his effeminate manner seems to be a mask or front he wears to hide who/what he really is. Outwardly he is coy and sly, putting on a faux delicate air to cover up how cruel, ruthless, and nasty he is. This gets nicely addressed in the “Rat” moment where Bartholomew calls Ratigan a Rat and everyone quickly (and poorly) reinforces the lie that he’s just “a big mouse”. Whenever Ratigan loses his cool and we see through the cracks, he has to take a deep breath and compose himself.

    Of course, when he fights Basil on the clock, he’s in full rat mode. But notice how he got there. His cape got caught in the gears and, as he runs through the clockwork, more of his outfit is ripped away:

    [​IMG]

    Again suggesting that Ratigan was just wearing a costume, putting out this outward appearance. What’s interesting then is why choose such a foppish persona? Is it because it so drastically contrasts to what we know to be true that it becomes something more sinister? Like now we are all waiting for that other shoe to drop so it creates this anxiety in the viewer (and the other characters)? I’m not totally sure I have an answer, but it was something that struck me this time around. I’d love to hear some thoughts on it!


    3. Scene Analysis
    I noticed this time a very nice symmetry between Basil and Ratigan, which of course is coming out of the source material between Sherlock and Moriarty. The reason why the two are such perfect adversaries is because they’re basically two sides of the same coin. This comes across very subtly here in some background details.

    When Basil first introduces Ratigan, we see the villain’s portrait on the mantle. It sits like a little shrine, surrounded by other memorabilia about the man like newspaper clippings (and later the little bell as a trophy).

    [​IMG]

    During “World’s Greatest Criminal Mind,” Ratigan takes to the harp and bemoans Basil’s interference, and we see that he too has a small shrine (though a much darker, almost voodoo style) dedicated to his nemeses also on his mantle:

    [​IMG]
    Notice the hat to the left, and the magnifying glass “trophy” as well!

    Being a big fan of the BBC Sherlock and also the original texts, I really liked how the Disney version incorporated this foil between the two characters without being heavy-handed with it.


    5. Symbol Analysis
    So much of this film’s tension happened in the shadows—literally. There were many many instances where characters were either introduced via shadow/silhouette (of course Sherlock and Watson, most obviously), but there were also instances where the film makers used shadows as a means to either build tension or spice up the scene.

    [​IMG]

    Of course, one could say that shadows are simply easier to animate, and that’s certainly true. But they never felt like cutting corners, but rather letting the viewer fill in those gaps or be left guessing what was there. It’s small little thing, and I’m sure there’s more to it. But I noticed it more here than I have in previous films.


    6. Dialog Analysis
    One of my favorite aspects of this film is how fleshed out the characters are. We get all sorts of little idiosyncrasies with them: Ratigan and his composure, Dawson as a slight (very British) stutter, etc. But Basil’s little hums and tuts and noises he makes are just SO good.

    [​IMG]

    For example, when they are outside the Toy Store and Basil is looking for the entrance, he’s doing this little “bum bump ba dee dum dum” thing that not only fills the silence of his searching, but also lets us follow his process. As he gets closer to figuring it out, the noises get slower and more deliberate rather than wandering.

    Also when he’s working on his chemistry set, he’s got so many little “Ah yes yes good good no not that yes good yes” that I didn’t have to see him say any of that, or require any additional elaboration, to feel the same anxiety, excitement, impatience as he was up until we got that result. Again, a small thing that did a TON of work for the story and the characters.


    8. Connections/Progressions
    I mentioned earlier that this film felt like one of the first to really tap into (or I guess start using) what we consider more modern story-telling and film-making maneuvers. One notable instance is this film’s use of transitions between scenes. In several of our past films, when the scene cut to black, that was it and we were moving on—it was a jump in the action and that was the blackout’s only purpose. Here, transitions felt a little more significant as they were doing other things beyond just changing scenes.

    For example, when Olivia is explaining to Basil about what happened to her father, he cuts her off and introduces Ratigan. We get a bleeding scene transition into Ratigan’s lair (and a rousing musical number). Then Ratigan strikes the same pose as the picture on the mantle—lightning flash—and we are back in Basil’s house. The transitions here showed us that this scene was happening at simultaneously, rather than an otherwise clumsy cut-to-black transition. Also, immediately after the transition, Basil asks Olivia for any additional information, and she says, “It’s just as I said, and then my father was gone!” The beauty of this is that we didn’t hear all of those details again from Olivia, they were happening while we were at Ratigan’s, but we didn’t need those details since we saw the abduction happen to begin with. So the transition here moves us to a simultaneous point in time while otherwise redundant information was happening in our first location. It was subtle, and something that becomes way more utilized on more modern films I think.

    Also, the scene where Basil tells Olivia that she is not accompanying them, “And that is FINAL!”. We fade to black, then within two seconds we know we are out on the case and boom, Olivia is there, and we all laugh. So in this case, the transition was used for comedy. It’s far less funny to hear Olivia talk Basil into letting her go, so we let the transition happen, the audience assumes Olivia is left behind, but boom she’s not. So the transition doesn’t only move the plot forward, it also provides a punchline. (Okay, maybe I’m over thinking that one, but whatever, I think it’s cool, hahah!)


    9. Iconic Shot
    As I geared up for this question, I took a quick scroll through everyone else’s choices since I had so many I wanted to use! Thankfully, most of them were already chosen so it helped me narrow it down. XD

    While it may not be as awe-inspiring as the clock scene, I think this shot is really important:

    [​IMG]
    Smile everyone!

    Not only does it capture a beautiful moment of triumph for Basil, who just before was broken and lost, but is a great goof on what Ratigan wanted to see (Basil’s squashed corpse). And, too, it nicely breaks the fourth wall and, in a rare occurrence, really makes me smile. Hahah! Probably more than any other moment, this is the one I carry with me from the film.


    10. Representative Pin


    [​IMG]
    Pin 120887 DSSH - Mice Series - Basil, Dawson, Olivia, & Hiram

    This one was no-brainer for me. It’s one of my favorite scenes, has a ton of color, and all the heroes. Despite some inconsistencies (Basil is never in green, that’s not what Dawson is wearing in this scene, etc), I was super excited when this pin dropped and it basically sparked my GMD collection. XD


    Spare notes:

    * @timeerkat beat me to the “Let Me Be Good to You” pin. XD I feel the exact same about it. XD


    *I definitely got a Pinocchio vibe with the Toy Store coming to life, and of course there’s the Dumbo easter egg!


    *Did I mention how much I love Vincent Price in this movie? Oi. Perfect villain.


    *I need an official Disney Pin of Basil’s first disguise. XD Preferably for Halloween with him holding a candy bucket! Get on that, WDI!
    [​IMG]


    *All of Basil’s Rube Goldberg’s machines were awesome
    [​IMG]
     
  7. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Oh my gosh, guys. These analyses are so awesome! I'll have to come back and read them more closely and comment! :D
     
  8. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    2   0   0

    Count me in - it was fun and very informative! But I always love reading others thoughts about a movie, I'm an enthusiastic analyse reader :D
     
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  9. NutMeg

    NutMeg I tie my own sandals.

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    Wow, I'm super impressed that you both read all that, haha! You get points for endurance. xD And thank you so much!! I'm thrilled to hear you found it informative! <3 It's super flattering, since this is pretty much the ONLY field I can offer any knowledge into, lol. (Let's just say don't come to me if you need help with anything that's actually useful, like doing math or fixing a computer... or adult-ing in general...)
     
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  10. NutMeg

    NutMeg I tie my own sandals.

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    I didn't do the pin question, but this one is definitely my favorite, for that very reason lol. Does anyone else kinda get the vibe that Basil and Ratigan might be bitter ex-boyfriends who had a VERY messy break-up...? At the very least, there's definitely some sexual tension there. And now that I think about it, there's DEFINITELY some fan fiction out there with them hooking up. xD
     
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  11. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I thought about this a little after reading your analyse and my theory is that they were not working for Ratigan, quite the opposite. They knew Rattigan and friends of Rattigan mean trouble. I think they wanted to drug the two just long enough to throw them out of the pub without any trouble. Well it did not end as they planned it.
     
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  12. NutMeg

    NutMeg I tie my own sandals.

    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0

    That's a very clever theory! And honestly the only one that makes sense to me now, lol. Thanks for sharing that! But considering that we had to scratch our heads to come up with an explanation, I still think the filmmakers handled that whole plot point very clumsily, and I don't think they thought through it much. They didn't establish the setting and its characters well enough, imo. After all, Basil and Dawson went down to the pub because they traced Fidget's letter back to it, so naturally they assumed that someone there would be able to lead them in Ratigan's direction, since it's been confirmed that his henchmen are customers. And they certainly establish the location as being a hot spot for criminals and lowlifes - just the sort of people Ratigan and his gang would associate with. (The pub is even RIGHT next to Ratigan's lair!) But then the whole room gasps in horror when Basil utters Ratigan's name; they share the same reaction as the regular townspeople during Ratigan's appearance at the jubilee later on. So the scene sort of sends mixed messages about Ratigan's position in London's criminal underworld, ya know? I guess they wanted to make a point about Ratigan being terrifying even to other criminals, but it just ends up muddying the waters in terms of the plot. But I still think you're right, lol.
     
  13. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

    Rating - 100%
    51   0   0

    I wasn't going to mention voice recycling, but since Merlin pointed out that Olivia's father is voiced by Scrooge, I have to say that *I* was distracted by Alan Young with a Scottish brogue because that is the exact character he plays in "The Time Machine" (David Filby) and that's all I could hear when I watched his scenes. I completely *forgot* that he was Scrooge also (as well as Mr. Ed's "owner", minus the brogue)!
     
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  14. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
    428   0   0

    There were definitely moments where I got a flash of Scrooge while watching, haha! Especially when he would say "There there, ma dear" or something like that.

    Is the name Flavisham Scottish? It sounds Scottish, but I'm not sure. Either way, his accent was much much stronger than hers and could have been toned back some for sure.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
  15. pincrazy

    pincrazy Active Member

    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0

    Nice movie to recover with, after Black Cauldron. I've always enjoyed Sherlock Holmes, and I think there was a revival around this time.
    1) Overall this was far better in storyline, characters, and humor. It's brighter, except for Ratigan parts, and runs with the cleverness Sherlock brings. This was a hidden treasure years ago, and glad we've caught up to movies that brought Disney back to its animation relevance.
    3/4) I always enjoyed the So Long, Farewell sequence, using Rube Goldberg during the sequence made it interesting, imaginative, exciting, and Fun! Hearing the song play out as Basil depresses over his failure, and Dawson nervously trying to get Basil to Get a Grip and figure out how to get out of the situation, is golden! With the final note, setting off the mechanism, and Basil saying "Smile, Everyone!", is Priceless and in Sherlock style, calculations and all.
    6) The single line I picked was when Ratigan proclaims"I won!", as in most tyrants sometimes the ecstasy of winning overpowers any other logic or sense, and at the end to prove he won, is No One!
    An extra note i thought was interesting: Sherlock saying his few lines to Watson was Basil Rathbone.! How cool is that! Noticed his name in voice credits and had to watch it again! : )
    10) Best pin goes to #120887

    TTFN till next week, & another 5 ....thanks Metlin, this one was FUN:stitch:
     
  16. pincrazy

    pincrazy Active Member

    Rating - 100%
    7   0   0

    Added comment to my 3/4....the planned situation sort of reminded me of the game, "Mouse Trap" haha! :stitch:
     
  17. NutMeg

    NutMeg I tie my own sandals.

    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0

    Oh! Speaking again of voice recycling haha, fun fact: When Basil, Dawson, and Olivia sneak upstairs to fetch Toby, we see the shadows of Sherlock and Watson on the wall and hear a brief snippet of their conversation before they leave:

    [​IMG]

    The voice of Sherlock here in fact belongs to Basil Rathbone, the actor famous for starring in 14 Sherlock Holmes films back in the 40's (and yes, Basil the mouse's namesake!) Though Rathbone had passed away decades earlier, the filmmakers recycled audio of his dialogue from an adaptation of The Red-Headed League. So not only is this a sweet tribute to one of the most iconic Sherlocks of all time, it also adds a fun, meta quality to the film - human Holmes & Watson are actually off on their own (real) case while their mouse counterparts start their own. :p
     
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  18. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
    428   0   0

    I did not know that! That's awesome!

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
  19. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
    428   0   0

    Hey gang! Just a remind, if you're around in about 45 minutes, the chat will be live. :) Looking forward to seeing you there!
     
  20. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0

    So Disney did have a plan B when it appeared things were going sour with the Black Cauldron; Basil of Baker Street was green kit after initial plans for it were shelved due to it's plot resemblence to the Rescuers toward the end of BC's production. Based on a book series(Basil of Bakerstreet), Jeffery Katzenburg eventually simplified the total to differentiate it from a similar Sherlock Holmes flop(a behind the scenes drama in itself) to bring forth what people would say a title that ended up saving the animation studio.

    1. Overall Impression,
    This was one of my favorite Disney movies I remember watching as a kid(we definitely had it on VHS), I think it played well into that Rescue Ranger like setting. It seems to have aged well which may be from its more modern movie pacing then its predecessors; but it is mind boggling how well it turned out considering how low of a budget this recieved(10 million)I don't know if it was meant but more often then not the movie played setting to the dark(whether it was dusk, rainy), with pops of color implemented in key scenes. The balance with the use of computer animation with 2D for the Big Ben scene was well used as it didn't appear as a completely different medium.

    2. Character Analysis
    Professor Ratigan is one of those easily complex characters in this film, he has the large ego of being larger then life and focuses all on being cultured and sophisticated to the extreme. His character is obsessed with becoming a mouse, and if that fails rule them. Literature generally shows mice as docile and human like creatures while rats are shown more as conniving and treacherous, of which his character is made out to be in the end. His voice actor, Vincent Price, does a phenomenal job though I keep wanting to hear him do the thriller laugh which never comes

    3. Scene Analysis
    The Queen's replacement scene is eerily similar to a horror movie that preceded this, the stepford wives(1975). In that film the protagonist comes face to face with her replacement double as the robot is grooming in front of a bedroom vanity before the robot slowly comes at her with a rope. Whilst in this, the queen is readying herself in her chambers as the decoy is brought to the room before chasing/capturing the queen. I was actually reminded more of the remake when the protagonist comes across her double and her eyes "flicker" to life in the same manner.

    5. Symbol Analysis
    The use of the bell to summon Felicia is reminiscent of Pavlov's dog experiment in which the animal is meant to be conditioned to salivate from expecting to be fed. In this circumstance, we are also expecting someone to die as well. While we don't see any other mice eaten by the cat, it does symbolize the precursor to Ratigan's demise when Basil rings it at Big Ben.

    9. Iconic Shot
    "Smile everyone!" the shot taken at the end of the mouse trap escape is so deadpan anticlimactic, I had to laugh at this point at everyone's reaction . It's like something I would do to other petiole not expecting their photo being taken...

    10. Representative Pin
    I though that this was a good pin no one has used thus far, I thought it did a good job at showing Basil investigating.

    Pin 47706 WDW - The Great Mouse Detective - 20th Anniversary
     
  21. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
    428   0   0

    @NutMeg your post was super fascinating! Imma definitely come to you when I get my Disney class off the ground at SPC, hahah! Anywho, super quick things because we could have an entire correspondence about some of this stuff.

    1) it looks like we were on the same page a lot with Ratigan (especially his facade being ripped off). I'm assuming this is what you mean by the subtle homophobia behind these design choices: the idea of a sinister inner being coupled with this foppish/campy exterior? That's something I hadn't really considered...

    2) Re: diegetic "Criminal Mind" - Ratigan does play the harp in that scene. And those fingerings were fairly articulate

    @timeerkat You're absolutely right about the bar scene. Honestly, I had never given the scene much thought beyond it just being kinda rowdy for Disney--but you're right, it doesn't advance the plot and turns our otherwise level-headed audience analog into a buffoon. Hrm... I wonder why it stuck around...


    I'll do some more responding tomorrow. I've got to get back to grading. XD
     
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  22. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
    428   0   0

    [​IMG]
    Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988)

    Monday is our "wrap-up" discussion on The Great Mouse Detective. So you're welcome to respond to other analyses throughout the day.

    However, you may not post any more full analyses for The Great Mouse Detective to count for completion toward the 52 Challenge. No late homework. ;P

    ~Merlin
     
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  23. NutMeg

    NutMeg I tie my own sandals.

    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0

    Oh-ho man, here we go... I know there are a lot of folks in the anti-Jessica camp here at DPF, but damn it, I've read your little jokes and jabs at her for over a year, and now it's my turn - you're gonna sit there and read my essay on how she's actually a nuanced and feminist character! YEAH I SAID THE F WORD ABOUT JESSICA RABBIT. THIS S*&#'s ABOUT TO GET REAL, Y'ALL.

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

    Rating - 100%
    237   0   0

    Forgot to put in my original post - Fidget was a bit confusing. Multiple times they mentioned he had a handicapped wing, but it looked fine, and he was able to fly around when Felicia was trying to eat him, but then later on he said he couldn’t fly.
     
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  25. pretty Omi

    pretty Omi Resident Smol Wolf

    Rating - 100%
    12   0   0

    I'm just gonna leave this here...
    [​IMG]
    Also, her name is "Miss Kitty Mouse"
    (Also funny, the name of the saloon cat in the aforementioned Fieval Goes West, is also Miss Kitty...)
     
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