The Disney 52 Animated Challenge: Year-Long Activity - NOW PLAYING: Princess and the Frog

Discussion in 'DPF Game Room' started by MerlinEmrys, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    Oh I'm not referring to the thematic side of things, but rather film language/technique. That's an entirely different area of study. The most obvious example would probably be when a boom mic slips into a shot; that is just objectively bad filmmaking, haha. That is something you SHOULD have re-shot, but you were inattentive and/or lazy. Or if the relationship between shots is inconsistent - for instance, if a character is situated in one spot and we cut too quickly to a new stance or position. Too much time and space has been covered in the length of just a few frames. Either the director crossed the axis of action when shooting, or the editor got sloppy. This is also in the vein of continuity errors, like having a character holding a pen in one shot, and in the next, it's suddenly gone. This kind of stuff is super jarring to the audience and only takes away from their immersion in the story; it also suggests a lack of effort/interest on the part of the filmmakers, so yeah, just objectively poor craftsmanship.

    Then there are the technical aspects that directly influence the subjective thematic content. Like scene-to-scene editing (and the writing in the first place. IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE EDITOR'S FAULT YOU GUYSSS. Although I'm also a writer so what am I even doing. Let's just always blame the producers for everything, sound good?) If a scene doesn't further the plot in any way *OR* add substance to the themes/motifs, it's pretty much unnecessary, and it's probably just going to slow down the pacing, which is also distracting to the audience. And things like cinematography/camera angles are hugely important for expressing the emotions and tone of a scene. For example, high-angle shots (wherein the camera is positioned above) usually convey a sense of vulnerability by rendering a character small in the frame. In Hunchback, you can see this technique being thoughtfully implemented in the scenes of Frollo being judged by the "eyes of Notre Dame," as well as in Hellfire, when he pleads to God, the Virgin Mary, and the ominous red-hooded figures. (Conversely, both these hooded figures and the "eyes" are all shot from low angles, so that they tower over him.) This is especially pointed and clearly deliberate, since these are the scenes where Frollo's mask of power/control briefly slips, and we see the true insecurity and vulnerability beneath.

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    (Holy doody, how am I just NOW noticing the coffin shape over him??? That is so freakin' cool.)

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    So this type of angle is probably going to be less effective if, say, you're shooting God Himself (I don't think there were any high-angle shots of Morgan Freeman in Bruce Almighty, haha), or Frollo when he's dominating others. He's almost exclusively shot from low angles in these scenes, so that he's "looking down" on the other characters (and the audience.) There is of course an element of subjectivity to this method, since it concerns the emotional reaction of your audience. But it's a pretty safe bet that most viewers will at least *subconsciously* pick up on this and be affected by it, especially since it's been around since the beginning of cinema, so most people are (for lack of a better word) "programmed" to react a certain way. It's therefore an objective frame of reference that is intentionally utilized by most filmmakers (and most film critics/academics.) It's effective enough that it's actually one of the first things they teach you in film school.

    TL;DR even though this particular discussion has focused primarily on the thematic content of the film, there is indeed a LOT about Hunchback's filmmaking that is just patently skillful, and displays talent/competency/thoughtfulness on behalf of the filmmakers.
     
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  2. LittleBird

    LittleBird Well-Known Member

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    I am going to be glib here (because I don't think you'll mind) and say... Duh. :D I know you were talking about technique. That's my point. Technique can be "skillful" as you say; it can convey the artists' intent exactly as they wish it to be conveyed. It cannot be "objectively" good. You can argue all you want about what is taught in film schools, etc. etc., but unless you believe there is some kind of Platonic ideal of Film (with a capital F) that exists outside of human creation, you are not going to convince me that one technique over another is Good (with a capital G).

    I will concede that missed boom mics or continuity errors could be viewed as objectively Bad, in that, as you say, they ruin the illusion of the film. Since film is all about creating illusion, I see how a mistake like could be Bad in the absolute sense--meaning it ruins the film as a film. It makes the film a not-film (and OMFG, you guys, I have definitely been reading too much philosophy), and therefore the error has unmade the film, which is Bad.

    But your talk of camera angles... nope. That is much more subjective than you seem willing to admit. Your basis for arguing their objective high quality is that they are utilized by most filmmaker and scholars and that their repeated use has "programmed" us to react a certain way. If that is true--if we can be programmed by a certain technique--then we can be programmed by a different, possibly opposite, technique. Somewhere down the line, in a different culture or a different time, some filmmaker could very well shoot God himself from a high angle to denote power, and it could change the visual language (and it is a language, which is always bound to culture and context) of filmmaking as we know it, the way that, for example, the modernists changed the conception of visual art and music.

    I, however, will freely admit that I am pushing this conversation way out of its expected bounds... and that I am also being annoyingly pedantic. :p

    My TL;DR: Kim gets fussy when people try to argue objective quality in art.
     
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  3. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    That's truly wonderful that Mamma Mia resonated with you so much, and I would never try to take that away from you. Reactions like that are why I love film so much in the first place! (I'm sorry for your loss, btw.) However, I can't help feeling a little like you're trying to minimize my own emotional connection to Hunchback by contrasting it *so* much with your MM2 reaction, and positing your reaction as more artistically credible.

    The fact that MM2's emotions rang true to you is awesome, but it doesn't *necessarily* mean that it was some super personal passion project for one of the filmmakers. I haven't seen the movie and can't comment on it specifically, but death, grief, and parent/child relationships are emotional arenas that are fairly easy for most people to relate to/empathize with, even if they haven't been personally impacted in a significant way. (And even so, these themes are general enough that most people can still apply them to their lives in an indirect way. For instance, I haven't lost my mother, but the fact that I no longer have a relationship with my father would probably still make a film like this hit a nerve for me.)

    My point being, this is pretty common thematic hunting ground for artists, and doesn't necessarily require profound personal experience to tackle. Certainly the same goes for the social justice themes in Hunchback. Who's to say which film has more "truth and sincerity" behind its artistic intent? We weren't there to observe the creative processes. And both your personal example of witnessing reactions to MM2 *and* the Hunchback reactions in this thread are extremely small samples of audience response. Idk, it just makes me uncomfortable to accuse filmmakers/artists of not having any sincerity or emotion behind their work.

    Not really, though - I'm just using film theory and historical context to back up my personal opinion. I'm trying to be objective rather than relying on emotional subjectivity, bias, and personal taste. I used specific evidence from the film to argue my case. But I've also had to write a lot of academic essays on film, so that's another reason for my writing style. Saying "I liked it, ergo it's good" (or "I didn't like it, ergo it's bad") doesn't result in a particularly good grade.

    What I mean is that the performance provided a new lens through which to examine the film version of the character. Much like your own personal experiences influenced your interpretation of Mamma Mia 2. That's a lens as well, provided not by the film itself but by external factors. Aka, "transference." Anyway, I chose not to focus as much on Quasi's characterization because it's much subtler than Esmeralda and Frollo's, so I just thought examining those two would grip readers more. But idk, I do think I covered his arc/development quite a bit in "Overall Goal."

    Again, I totally wasn't trying to offend anyone and I sincerely apologize if that was the case. That's just my sense of humor. And I'm just really passionate about this film because it's so often overlooked and dismissed on face value alone. I don't think you're failing to "get it" - if the film doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you, and that's a valid response - but by the same token, just because *you* don't get anything from the film doesn't mean there's nothing there. If that makes sense. *I* actually feel like people are looking down on me and my intelligence/my taste in film whenever this movie is bashed, which happens often... I'm pretty vocal about this being my favorite Disney film, and I came into this thread posting my analysis after several other people had already written super negative things about it. So I hope you can see things from my point of view as well.

    The reason I try to convince people to appreciate this movie more is because I think liking stuff is generally a good thing, haha. If I can add a little to someone's enjoyment of a film, it makes me feel super good. Enjoying stuff is fun! So idk, I guess I just don't get the point of so vehemently insisting on a film being bad and trying to persuade people to enjoy it less... unless I feel like a film is genuinely problematic or harmful in some way, like Pocahontas, which is why I was pretty hard on that film. But I don't think that's true for Hunchback, and haven't heard anyone argue that opinion here. It's great to get differing opinions and have a lively discussion, but idk; the prevailing opinion on this film is already negative, so it just feels kind of like kicking something when it's already down...

    But yeah, this is purely coming from a place of love and passion for the film - certainly not aggression or a personal grudge toward people who dislike it. I have nothing but love and respect for everyone on here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  4. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    Just to explain where I'm coming at this from, I'm someone who works in film and has firsthand experience in the way our filmmaking choices can influence and shape the audience's reaction. The whole postmodern, "art is not good or bad, it simply is" philosophy is useful in many ways, and is obviously espoused by some filmmakers (ie Andy Warhol and his 8-hour continuous shot of the Empire State Building.) Idk, I feel like I've already made it pretty clear that I do agree with this to an extent? But it's personally kind of annoying to me as a filmmaker when objectivity is dismissed completely, because it honestly diminishes the effort and purpose we pour into our work. You make it sound like everything we do, every choice we make, is completely arbitrary. I'm just saying, if you were to talk to a filmmaker about their work and attach such little value to their usage of film language (yes, including their camera angles), they would probably be a little miffed to say the least...

    Some people tend to think of filmmakers as navel gazing "~artistes~" who cater to our own sensibilities, and while personal artistic vision is obviously extremely important, at the end of the day we're trying to actively *express* this vision to the audience, which requires communication. We communicate using film language. Yes, language is somewhat interpretive and can change over time, but it's still based on mutual understanding. You have to be able to comprehend each other, and that stems from agreed-upon definitions. People attach great importance to literary composition and grammar - well, there's grammar to cinema as well. Most people don't consciously think about it, because watching a film is a more "passive" activity than reading a book. But it's still there, and at the very least, it affects you on a subconscious level. And yes, you are *theoretically* correct that film language is not a rule, but *in practice*, it is. Even when filmmakers expand on this language, there are fundamentals to narrative cinema - the Latin roots, so to speak - that are just never going to change (like shot-reverse-shot.) Part of this is because unlike "art" in the broader sense of the word, which can be created using any material and has no physical constraints, there ARE boundaries to film. It is a temporally, spatially locked medium. Again, you are *theoretically* correct that a filmmaker could blow everyone's minds by shooting God in a high angle that still manages to convey power. However, the spatial limitations of framing (and the cognitive science behind how our brains interpret things when seen from above vs below) make that... well, I wouldn't place any bets on it. It would be like a writer using adjectives such as "adorable" and "endearing" to successfully impart that a character is hideous and evil. Technically not impossible I guess, but highly improbable, and kind of a weird choice in the first place.

    My emphasis on things like camera angles may seem like pretentious "film school" posturing, but this *is* stuff filmmakers think about. It just is. And when I'm watching a film, I'm largely looking at it from the filmmakers' POV. I guess this thread is more about subjective reactions, but I can't help approaching it from this analytical, more objective perspective. Sorry.

    I'm just going to drop out here, though, since obviously most people are in opposition to my views and it seems kind of pointless to continue offering them haha. And I don't want to make Merlin potentially feel uncomfortable with such divisive discourse in his thread. <3 Enjoy Hercules y'all! :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  5. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    I do think the conversation is beginning to de-rail a bit, so I believe it's time to move on.

    That being said, I really hope that no one on this thread ever feels personally attacked for their views, as that is (I hope) never the intention of those of us discussing the films and certainly not the intention of the thread.

    So I hope that no one feels the need to stop posting about the movies! <3 I enjoy reading it all! And everyone's opinions are still valuable and important and should be presented.

    (and if you guys rain on my Hercules parade I'll be so sad...

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    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
  6. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    You know what I really love?

    THE MUSES!

    And this video just make some love them even more!


    Check out this Side by Side video showing how "Zero to Hero" transformed from storyboard to final product!

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. Addicted to Alice Pins

    Addicted to Alice Pins My name is Ann, and I'm here to enable you!

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  8. LittleBird

    LittleBird Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, Merlin. I'll stick to the assigned reading from now on. :D

    Word. I wouldn't expend my time if I didn't think the opinions here were valuable. A question with only one right answer is a question that bores me frankly.

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    Lay it on me with that sweet, sweet Greek mythology, people.
     
  9. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    OK, should it bother me this much that they made the four "thin" Muses even taller and thinner yet they made the one "fat" Muse even shorter and fatter than in real life??? In the live-action, the difference between the five singers is not nearly so "obvious" or jarring. Just saying.
     
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  10. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I always thought this Live action video was made later. I tink I've seen it but without the concept art parts.

    I think it's the art style :) And that short muse was the most memorable to me as achild and even now my favourite muse. :)
     
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  11. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    I do think a lot of it has to do with art style. Not that that's an out and out excuse, but a lot of features got exaggerated. :)

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  12. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    As a kid, I grew up reading Greek and Roman mythology and I loved it! So, you’d think this movie would be a shoo-in, but…

    1. My overall impression of the movie… Several things:

    First off, the storyline for this movie truly annoys the $#!T out of me. I know, artistic license and all, but REALLY??? Making Hera into Hercules’s MOTHER?? Alcmene is his real mother, and he was born from an affair of Zeus with a mortal (hence demi-god; half-god, half-mortal). To be kind, Hera was NOT happy about the affair or the bastard (sorry about the word, but technically accurate here) child born from it. Alcmene tried to appease the goddess by naming the child after her, Heracles! Unimpressed, Hera delighted in torturing Hercules—she sent serpents to kill the infant child (the Pain and Panic scene in this movie), she made him insane enough to kill his children and his wife Megara(!), etc. etc. etc. Nothing would have made Hera happier than a dead/mortal Hercules, contrary to this movie.

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    Turning Hera into Hercules’s mother is like turning Lady Tremaine into Cinderella’s real mother, or like making Maleficent (the Mistress of All Evil) feel sorry for cursing Aurora and then MALEFICENT’s kiss being the “kiss of true love” that breaks Aurora’s curse (oh wait… Oops!).

    Related to this, there does seems to be the requisite confusion of Hades (the Greek god of the underworld) with the Devil—Meg even says “Speak of the Devil” in reference to Hades. Hades (the place) was viewed as cold and unfeeling—the dead’s souls were referred to as ‘shades’ (shadows) and viewed more like lifeless (!) zombies wondering around. Yet, we get lots of “hot” images from Hades (hot-headed, lots of moments of red in an otherwise gray/blue character more reminiscent of shadows). I also cringe a bit at the idea of Hades (the god) being automatically depicted as a villain, simply because he oversees the dead (the Fates are the ones who kill them, as in the movie). I prefer the view that Death is not the enemy, it simply is.

    On a completely different side-note, why doesn’t Hades glow like all of the other gods?

    Narcissus is NOT a god, and therefore should NOT have been on Olympus just for a cheap joke. Just saying.

    A minor issue: Hades refers to the Titans as, “BROTHERS!” Actually, they’d be UNCLES to Hades…

    OK, so while the mythology infidelity bothers me (but not as much as it bothers Hera!), I LOVE the gospel music addition to the Muses as the Greek chorus. This musical addition, and the character of Megara, saved this movie for me. The more I think about the storyline, the less I like this movie.

    This was the first Disney film to show adopted parents in a positive light! I wonder if this resonates with children who have been adopted (or their adoptive parents)…

    I do wonder what makes Disney elevates obvious non-princesses to the Disney Princess (DP) line-up (more next week!). Megara and Esmeralda are clearly not princesses by birth or marriage, but neither are some of the others (Tink! I’m looking at you!). I think Meg and Es have quite a bit to be emulated by young kids (not just girls), and I wonder if their movies were more popular if they’d be DP? Well, after watching this time I KNOW why Megara is not a DP. She doesn’t get along well with woodland creatures! I know, the rabbit and gopher were really Pain and Panic, but still… DP MUST get along with woodland creatures!


    2. and 8. I have to admit, after last week’s discussion, I feel leery about analyzing any character… I’m just fearing that my analysis will pale in comparison to others done later. Still, going early means I get the first say, so I’m going to go all surface-level on Wonder Boy.

    First off going along and part and parcel with my issues of storyline about his parentage, the writers just don’t get the concept of a demi-god. Being “half-god and half-mortal” does NOT mean that in half the movie you are full-god and then in the other half you’re full-mortal. Ugh! That’s like saying Pegasus is “half-horse and half-bird” so let’s transform him from full horse for part of the movie into full bird for the rest, or that a satyr is “half-man and half-goat” so let’s make him a goat that turns into a human (or vice versa). Just no.

    On a positive note, after watching the movie this time I DID like that they made adolescent Herc clumsy (in the past, I really hated it; not sure why). Why I liked it this time is that it totally makes sense that a mortal (in a mortal body) would have difficulty controlling god-level strength. On the other hand, this led to the obligatory 80’s training montage that, while fun because of the music, made me roll my eyes at the “been-there done-that” of it all. The whole “I feel like a freak/I don’t belong” angle for Hercules has been done a lot in Disney films (Ariel, Belle, Quasimodo, Mulan, Stitch, etc.); this makes me wonder why this is such a common trope, to turn an outsider into the hero. It seems to me that it plays to the optimism of the down-trodden—I’m different, but that’s cool. I can be a hero; I can do wonderful things.

    They also played up the naivety of Hercules, especially as a foil to Megara. In that respect, the interplay of naïve Hercules with street-wise Meg felt very reminiscent of HBNT with naïve Quasimodo and street-wise Esmeralda. And while this gives a chance to show similarities between Herc and Quasi (both unsure, stammering, and mesmerized by a fantastic lady), it really serves more to differentiate Meg and Es. Es is more careful and respectful of Quasi’s uncertainty and social awkwardness, which makes their interactions feel sweet and pure. Meg, on the other hand, plays with and takes advantage of Herc’s awkwardness (not that he seems to mind much), which makes their interactions feel like Herc is being taken advantage of. Not that I don’t like Meg! I really do! I don't think my opinion of her would be as positive as it is, if she didn’t change her ways (and alliances) in the movie so it becomes clear that her brash and street-wise attitude is working with the hero and not against him. (Hey look, my analysis of Herc just turned into an analysis of Meg; two half-analyses = one good one, right?).


    (2. and) 3. and 4. The scene/song I chose to analyze was Meg’s song, “I won’t say I’m in Love”. This is ABSOLUTELY my favorite “Disney Princess” song (yes, I know Meg is not DP, and I know why; see 1. above), and probably my favorite Disney song ever!

    First off, let’s talk music. I LOVE Susan Egan’s voice! So raw and powerful, and strong! After Jodi Benson (Ariel!), I’d have to say that Susan Egan’s voice is the most iconic Disney voice and irreplaceable. If they ever make a live-action version of LM or “Hercules”, I think they’re going to have a HUGE difficulty in getting actresses that will be “better” (more memorable, better actresses, better singers, etc.) that the animated voices. Second, I LOVE the Muses in each of their songs (more in 1. above); and the combination? Truly spine-tingly and goose-bumpy result, at least for me! This song was the sole reason I went to see this movie three different times when it was in the theater! I almost never go to see the same movie in a theater twice.

    Equally enthralling are the lyrics of this song, and especially the rhymes. The Disney writers did a really good job of letting us know who Meg really is, with just a few lines of exposition from Hades and this song. Meg has hardened her heart and closed herself off from being close to anybody. This is because she trusted and loved a man so much, she sold her soul to save him; then he left her for another woman. With that explanation from Hades, our impression of Meg is transformed from hard-hearted to wounded “victim” (for lack of a better word) and she becomes a real heroine instead of a cardboard villain. Throughout the lead-up to the song, we see Meg fighting her attraction to Hercules, trying to convince herself that “I already fell for that, and I’m not going to make that mistake again”.

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard a more effective use of “main singer/chorus” than in this song. This song shows Meg’s inner struggle, and it could be argued that Meg is interpreting the Muses’ counterpoint as being all in her head and therefore it doesn’t break the spell of the song. Meg’s inner turmoil is evident, with her voice still showing the resistance of her heard over her heart and the Muses serving as the voice of her true feelings, her heart. In the end, Meg accepts how she feels, but she isn’t quite ready to let others (especially Hercules) know just yet.

    Favorite rhymes: “how you’re feeling/hit the ceiling”, “face it like a grown-up, when you gonna own up”, “you’re doing flips, read our lips”, “way off-base/get off my case”, etc.


    5. The symbol I chose to analyze was Cupid’s arrows. I know it was a throw-away gag and incredibly obvious, but nonetheless I felt that Meg getting plucked by the arrow of a statue of Eros (I really should use the Greek name, right?) after her date with Hercules but before her song really showed the moment when Meg recognized the extent of her feelings for Hercules and you could see the look of panic (not Panic) in her eyes.


    6. The phrase I chose to analyze came from Megara: “Sometimes it’s better to be alone. Nobody can hurt you.” It’s ultimately a sad sentiment, but it accurately depicts Meg’s view on love and life. Meg has spent her time since selling her soul and losing her boyfriend keeping her heart protected and keeping herself alone from other mortals. Definitely a “once burned, twice shy” kind of attitude, and outsiders might view Meg as cold and distant, thinking she doesn’t care at all when in fact she is hiding the fact that she thinks she cares too much. There was something poignant about Hercules risking his soul to save Meg’s soul that “bookends” her selling her soul for her boyfriend, and gives us a happy ending. Yea!


    9. I chose this scene with the Muses, because I think that the story of this movie really is told by them, and they are so cool!

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    640 × 442 - nylon.com


    10. So with pinpics being down, I’m not even going to try to give a pp #, but this fantasy pin of Meg and the statue of Hercules is one of my favorite “Hercules” pins.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  13. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0

    I watched this with my girls so but as I'm not home, I'll just start off with stray thoughts so they don't show up later in my Analysis.

    Stray Thoughts

    These went over my girls heads but I burst out laughing during parts of the movie.

    *Zazu was right, he does make quite the handsome throw rug...
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    *The Haunted Mansion was down for repairs otherwise they would have got the part when Muses portraying themselves as the singing busts from the Haunted Mansion.
    [​IMG]

    *Hercules' training rendition as the Karate Kid, I think I have another movie to add to my to watch list along with blues brothers.
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    YAAAAAAAAAAAAY I'M SO HAPPY :D

    1. Overall Impression

    This is one of my absolute favorite films. Next to Aladdin, I’ve probably watched it the most of any other Disney movie; and if given the choice to just watch a movie for fun, I would probably pick Hercules over just about any other film. And while there are some really amazing points, and the characters are just so good, I noticed on this watch through that the humor is really “on the nose” and referential for the most part. The scene with all of the towns people complaining about the disasters in Thebes, they all physically reflect their respective disaster. The little references throughout, like the Disney Store, American Express card, etc., that’s all ha-ha-funny, but doesn’t really have a lot of substance to it, you know? That was probably my biggest (er, only) complaint for the film is that it took every opportunity to make a little gag, so much so that it got a tad much at times.

    But that’s from an analytical perspective. From a place of personal enjoyment, this film is on the top for me. I adore it, and it’s so freaking uplifting. So I think that will be my word for it. :)


    2. Character Analysis
    I wish we had Gotten more Young (not baby) Herc in the film, and for some reason I thought that we did. But that’s what the TV show is for! But for this film, I think Adult Herc showed an incredible amount of character development. Beyond the small tics the animators gave him (like being pigeon-toed or fidgeting with his hands when he gets nervous), there was such a breadth of emotion for him. Most notably, his fear and frustration.

    When he faces off with the Hydra, he shows sheer moments of terror. And not just the ones used for a laugh (“I don’t think we covered this one in basic training!”), I mean real anxiety. Like, “Oh crap I may actually die here” kind of fear.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Counter to someone like Aladdin, who even when faced with something overwhelming, he more or less kept his cool, Hercules is remarkably human (pun) in his reactions. Another moment that sealed the deal for me and Wonderboy was when he visits the Temple of Zeus again after “Zero to Hero” and is told he’s “just not there yet.” He’s so angry, and frustrated, and forlorn that he just reacts.

    [​IMG]

    And the camera pans out to really reinforce that lonely moment:

    [​IMG]

    (side note, I love how Pegasus looks up to the statue like, “Look what you’ve done…” Geebus…)

    And these are just a few examples of how human the animators and writers really made Herc. Of course, that’s part of the point, right? That he’s human and not a god? And when you consider that little tidbit, his humanity and how it manifests in his actions and animation become a really spectacular achievement in storytelling.


    2. Character Analysis (again)
    I just can’t resist, and I feel like I owe it Phil since I give him so much guff in this movie. So real quick, there’s an amazing moment that speaks volumes to Phil’s character shortly after we meet him. As he brings Herc into his home, we see tons of statues, ornaments, monuments to the heroes of the past. But each one, for Phil, is tainted by the ultimate failure of his protégé. Phil has surrounded himself with failure, constantly mocked by it. The only positive thing in his home is the rolled-up star map, which he keeps closed and off display. Phil has consciously chosen to ignore hope and rather dwell on failure. That’s a really dark place to be in. Which makes that awesome constellation moment at the end really special… “That’s Phil’s boy!” #uglycrying


    3. Scene Analysis
    It was so tempting to do my character analysis on Meg, so I’ll squeak by and talk about the “Your freedom” scene as a work around, hahah! Throughout the film, Meg has shown really great character—yes she’s working for Hades, but it’s obviously not a complicit arrangement. It’s not until this moment that we know what’s happened and how Meg got here (also, solid way to give us backstory like ¾ of the way through the film. That was really neat :D ) And her facial expression to the little smoke show is really effective:

    [​IMG]

    But the real strength of this scene is how that final punch is dealt. As Hades is smooth talking his way into a deal, the camera zooms in. He lifts the little twirl of hair (totally unnecessary but somehow super sinister) and we see Meg gasp and we hear the vase fall and crash. There’s just something about not seeing that vase fall that suggests the gravity of the situation. That something bigger, unseen, is happening and the film is moving into its next act. That subtlety is amazing, especially considering how much of the film’s comedy is bald-faced, and makes the moment incredibly significant for not just the plot but also Meg’s character development. She’s given an impossible choice—and I cannot say I wouldn’t have made the same decision if I were in her sandals…


    4. Song Analysis
    Despite my adoration for “Wont’ Say I’m In Love”, “Go the Distance” is what this film is all about and is a song that just speaks to me. Young Herc’s optimism that there is somewhere out there for him (with the wind whipping in his hair!), is so amazing because we, the audience, do know that he’s destined for something greater. And this song is all the more amazing because we get to watch him find that out as well.

    And I could gush about the lyrics for days. This is like, high-school-Merlin’s anthem and got me through a lot of tough spots. But what’s really amazing is how the scene bookends itself with the same shot, but they have totally different meanings.

    The song begins at sunset, with Herc upset over the marketplace. And as he sings, we get that amazing opening shot of him and the sunset:

    [​IMG]

    But it is a sunset, and the next verse of the song is him wandering the darkness back home, saying that “someday” he’ll find his place. As we move forward, he finds out about his past and makes the journey to the Temple of Zeus. The song breaks for the temple scene, and Herc is given his task and purpose and the reprise turns from hopeful to excited and we get another awesome shot:

    [​IMG]

    But this time, it’s a sunrise. It’s literally uplifting. It’s rising. It’s going up. The film’s energy goes from “I don’t know my place” to “I’m going to go find it” and to use the same imagery for both, but with the shift from a sunset to a sunrise is just utter genius storyboarding. Like, what a good freaking idea, and so powerful. Okay, I’m getting teared up, time to move on.


    6. Dialog Analysis / 7. Overall Goal
    He says as he comes to the line that always makes him cry… It may seem hokey to say that the film’s overall goal is really broadcast in the final shots and song, but hey, I think it’s the moment that showcases it best. So “A Star is Born” is another favorite song of mine because not only is it pure celebration, but its lyrics are really amazing and, again, make me cry every time:

    Just remember in the darkest hour
    Within your heart’s the power
    For making you
    A hero too (a hero too!)
    So don’t lose hope when you’re forlorn
    Just keep your eyes upon the skies

    Like…I don’t know guys. That’s what this movie is all about. That within anyone is the power to be a hero. It doesn’t take super strength (that was the whole point of the Temple of Zeus scene), it takes being true to yourself and caring for others. And that even in your darkest moment, when you’re feeling at your lowest, the film reminds you that “within your heart’s the power” to be the hero that you need. “So don’t lose hope when you’re forlorn.” #uglycryingagain


    8. Connection/Progression
    I can definitely see Megara as a throwback to Jessica Rabbit. Her design is deliberately alluring, but honestly that’s more in the service of the men using her rather than her own character. Like Jessica saying she’s “just drawn that way,” suggesting it was the artist’s choice to use and present her in this way, Meg is being used by Hades. Just look at how her expression changes when she catches Hades’ drift about “the right curves”:

    [​IMG]

    She’s piiiiiiiissed. So yes, she’s this bombshell, but it’s something that others seem to exploit her for, which is a nice connection to Jessica in my mind.


    9. Iconic Shot
    As always, tons of choices. I’m tempted to stick with the “Go the Distance” shot, but I’ll instead choose that Hercules constellation:

    [​IMG]

    It’s the perfect culmination of the film’s journey. And what an awesome moment to end on. :)


    10. Representative Pin
    I happen to see that Unibear already mentioned the Herc Statue fantasy pin—which is probably my favorite Herc pin period and definitely my favorite one in my collection. So I’ll go with this one:

    [​IMG]
    Pin 9326 2002 Hero Award

    In addition to being a fun shot from the film, I like the idea that it’s an award given out, and that you can earn this if you try hard enough. Again, part of the message of the film. :)
     
    NutMeg, coblj003, pincrazy and 5 others like this.
  15. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    (OH MY GOSH I ACTUALLY HAD TO BREAK THIS UP BECAUSE IT WAS TOO LONG!!!!!)


    Stray Thoughts:

    *This is definitely something I HAVE to ignore the source material with or I won’t enjoy it at all. It’s so far away from that source that it bears almost no resemblance beyond names and the most basic concept. As an English major, I’ve just gotten used to turning that switch off because adaptations are almost always wonky when held up to the source. So rather than me get frustrated with this new version not being like the original (which, sometimes, I didn’t really even care for, I’m just being pretentious about it hahah!), I just take the film on its own terms and roll with it. :)

    *I figured it would be redundant to explain why I love the Muses so much, because of their storyteller function in the film. Plus they’re sassy as hell and I love them. XD But you guys know this already. ;)

    *Herc’s love for his adoptive parents is so touching. Even after finding out about being a god, he never forgets them. We see their bounty during “Zero to Hero,” and after Herc comes back from Olympus during “A Star is Born,” he’s not even on the ground good before he runs to his parents and embraces them. They were always on his mind, and no amount of fame or god-hood made them any less his parents. That’s amazing and touching and I WANT PINS OF THEM DARN IT.

    *The Hydra fight is soooooo cool. And, pardon me for getting a little meta here, the fact that the Hydra is CG adds an interesting level of threat to the moment. The Hydra is apart from everything else in the scene because it’s CG, so that makes it automatically different and therefore all the more unfamiliar. Add in the lighting and the sound effects, you’ve got a truly terrifying moment.

    *Hades is great. Just…just great. XD However much I love Jafar, Hades is defo my favorite villain. His writing is just top notch. XD “And Herc, you little devil you, may I call you Herc?” XD

    Edit:
    *favorite line: "Don't believe the stories that you read on all the crockery". PFFFT XD so freaking clever. Because they get stories from vases? Crockery? Ya know? Okay, my dork is showing, but man that's a funny line. XD
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  16. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I just have to stop keep adding thoughts. So part 1:

    1. What is your overall impression of the film? Some possible talking points include: what you did or did not like about it; what about the film has stuck with you; what did you find different on this viewing; how would modern audiences respond to this (for the older films)… The list goes on. Hahah!
    Another movie I know and love from my childhood. Watched it hun dubbed but I didn’t have time for a double watch, sadly. :( But as usual I had to watch parts in English for the analysis.
    I know many people have similar issues with this movie like they did with for example Pocahontas – it is not at all accurate to the source material. I’ve read the Greek myths as a child and I’m still fine with it being very different. :) I just regard it as something completely different that draw some inspiration from Greek myths. It is a fun family movie I still like very much and I often watch it with my sister and brother. I love this movie and its messages.
    I also like it because I share young Hercules struggles to find a place wher he feels like he belongs.
    Hades is my favourite villain, I love funny villains.But I have to mention that although he was the god of the dead and so considered a good choice for a villain – well, people do think it evil when death takes a loved one from them, I know I do for sure – Hades was actually one of the few faithful Greek gods – he didn’t have affairs unlike Zeus who had many.
    I would have loved it if all nine Muses would have been there – but that would have been a lot of extra work and extra designs. I love how unique all of them are and that they are not perfect – one has a big chin for example.
    I also love the uniquie style they used for the characters. Many curly lines – that was typical for ancient Greece – curls in the hair, curls on the pillars, curls everywhere and those curly were built in in the designs. Also the villain and his sidekicks have muc less of these curls.

    2. Choose one specific character to analyze. You can explore how a character acts, what they say, how they dress, etc. to explain what they may represent or their function and meaning in the narrative. Try to avoid obvious "plot" stuff (ex: the Evil Queen is a villain, so her purpose is to be bad...), but explore unique and specific elements about the character (ex: the EQ is surrounded by images of peacocks, further suggesting her obsession with vanity). You may also use these elements to explain why you connected or disconnected from the character.
    Very hard choice. I think I’ll stick to Hercules because I connected with him the most because in a lot of ways he is very much like me. He’s different from the perfect princes so far and it’s nice to see a different kind of hero. He’s a bit naïve but kind and caring and although he told Megara he would never hurt her, he also act like that – he’s unconfortable when Meg is too close and doesn’t take advantage of the situation although he could have done so easily more than once. And I think that’s what made Megara like him.
    He also doesn’t give up easily (he tried to help all his life growing up and although it often didn’t end well, he still tried to help) but gets discouraged because he doesn’t believe he’s something superior just because he is strong or a trained hero. He has a strong character because although he rose to fame quite quickly he didn’t become full of himself and is aware that the life of a star is somewhat empty and he needs Meg to fill that place.
    His simple white outfit at the beginning could represent his innocence. As he trains with Phil he sees more of the world and understands more and with that his outfit becomes more complex, too. (Goldish color – rich heart? OK I’ll shut up.)
    Also personal ties, like love or friendship give him extra strength something more than his physical strength: Phil returning to ancourage him gave him the strength to defat the cyclops without his godly strength and Megs life being at stake gave him even more.

    3. Choose one specific scene or sequence to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? Your analysis could include the scene’s use of color, action, camera angles, music, character development, setting, backdrop, style, etc. If you can justify it with evidence from the scene, then it’s an analysis!
    I think I’ll choose the part after Hercules’ and Megara’s firs meeting when they part after that meeting. We see that while Hercules and Company are up and in the light, we are down with Megara in the shadow – indicating that Meg has somedark secrets, being Hades’ servant.
    [​IMG]
    As she leaves the place the green, sunny woods become darker and scarier so we know, we are about to meet our villain.
    [​IMG]
    There are some leaves that remind me of Colors oft he wind but they are all gray – I thought this is a hint that Meg was once a happy sprited princess like Pocahontas but right now she feels as gray as the leaves and is skeptic about everything.
    Another princess element turns up, the little animals from the woods (and in later scenes, little birds) but these turn out to be fake animals, aka Pain and Panic – again, what Meg was and what is now. I have to say a thought from @unibear started these thoughts. (Disney Princess has to be friends with woodland creatures)
    After all in the myth she is a princess. (And she wears purple. Purple was mainly associated with royalty)
    During these scenes she herself is the most colorful thing to bee seen, showing that she still has something left of the princess sleeping in her – even Pain and Panic are dark and before that have earthy colors and and in both cases they kind of blend in with the background. Hades comes next who actually brings colors with him: blue and fire for his fiery temper but otherwise he is also all dark and smokey.
    (In the hun dub as “speak of the devil” wouldn’t work so Meg calls Hades the main rat instead, after telling Pain and Panic that they are rather rats than cute little animals)

    4. Choose one song to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? What purpose does this song have in the film and does it succeed in that purpose?
    One Last Hope seems like an interesting choice and also a bit of a possibility to explore Phil. The song has several purposes: it shows what Phil is like (beside the trait we saw earlier), how his and Hercules’ relationship becme friendship and also moves the plot forward: at the beginning of the song we have a reluctant Phil and a young, unexperienced but enthusiastic Hercules who isn’t able to control his strength, at the end of the song, they have a strong trainer trainee relationship, and Hercules learned much beside controlling his strength. The song also serves as a bit of a comic relief, too. It reminds me a bit of Hakuna Matata – both are about learning and are the main song of the sidekick(s).
    I think it succeeds pretty well with each purpose, some work better some not that well – like presenting Phil, we alreadyknow his big dream and that he likes pretty ladies. We also learn later that he always has Hercules best interests at heart. But we also learn through the song that he is a devoted trainer, aims for the very best and even if he is not that patient, he’s very tough and tenacious.

    5. Choose one specific symbol in the film to analyze. A symbol is typically something inanimate, an object, rather than a character. So don’t say “Brer Bear represents dumb people,” as that’s more of a character analysis than a symbol. Rather, think about specific objects (jewelry, clothing, houses, food, weapons, etc.) What does this symbol mean and how does that meaning impact the film?
    I think I’ll chose the vases: they are a symbol of wealth and success for Hercules. And Hades breaks those vases as stress relief – he is trying to put an end to hercs success. The scene wher Hercules is modelling with the lionskin on him for a vase portrait is also important. The vase gets painted all over by the angry painter – it is Hercs doubt that fame and wealth is really what he wants and needs.
    Also the vases showed Hercules’ heroic deeds – the reasons why he became famous.
    Also when Megara comes to him after Phil lured away the fangirls and says “Sure you are” (a Hero) she is holding a vase. Okay she picks it up and puts it down. She knows he’s famous and wealthy and all but that’s not important for her. So she puts that thing down.
     
  17. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Part 2:

    6. Choose a single line of dialog that you find to be the most significant/impactful line in the film and why. You can be a little loose with the “single line” bit, but let’s not go for Maleficent’s entire monologue to Philip... Rather, something like Stitch’s “This is my family. I found it all on my own. It’s little, and broken, but still good. Yeah – still good.” (brb weeping).
    There are many very deep lines, being alonf, to belong and more that it is really hard to choose just one.
    “I try to fit in, I really do. But I just can’t” It tells all about Hercules’ struggles and I love how despite being bullied and called a freak and treated bad by people he could still be cheerful and helpful in short, he kept his inner strength. And that is definitely something his fosterparents did for him, their love and care allowed him to stay strong. (uhm, Frollo, Mother Gothel go study the example, that is how you raise an adopted child)
    This short phrase shows that Hercules is very well aware of him being different. It is what makes him start his journey to discover who he is and where his real place is. It sums up the aspect of the movie that touched me most.
    When he talks to Meg about fitting in there are a few lines that are kind of a response to this one and I think that’s great – it’s like the movie is asking a question and offerint a possible answer. Maybe being exactly like the others is not that good.
    (I also have a bit of a personal experience with that, a friend gave me a quote from a movie to that: Why try to blend in so hard when born to stand out – something like that and I think it’s the same for Hercules)

    Runner up:
    “Look inside your heart”
    I thought this one was about trouth, being true to yourself but I just couldn’t figure it out although I feel (rather than know) that this is a very important part.

    7. What is this film’s overall goal? Is it to teach a specific lesson (what is it) or get an emotional response (such as)? Or both? And how well or poorly does the film succeed in that goal? Be specific!
    There is a lot we can take with us from this movie. For me, the “feel like I belong” part was the strongest. To try and work hard to feel like you belong. And perhaps it is not always the right ting to fit right in and be like everybody else.
    It also teaches about trust, teaches never to give up to achieve your dream and finding and knowing what really makes you happy.(Like: not wealth, not finally becoming a God or what Herc worked so very hard but staying with Meg)

    8. What connections or progressions do you see in this film to past films? Example: how does Sleeping Beauty progress (or digress?) the princess archetype built in Cinderella? Be specific! Also, consider what use there is in returning to or re-imagining those elements?
    The greek vase that was used at the beginning actually reminded me of the stained glass window pictures from Beauty and the Beast but ther they were used only to frame the story, here they return from time to time again during the story.
    Also Megara is very different from even the strong Disney Princesses and from Esmeralda too with her sassy attitude. I feel like Disney was exploring possibilities, what kind of girls they can have in their movies. Esmeralda was one possibility, with her standing up and helping others and being strong, Meg is a different metter, she’s sarcastic, still strong but in a different way. Those two ladies, even if not part of the princess lineup are strongly connected to them (I think at the very beginning Esmealda was part of the lineup and Tinker Bell too but were removed later. For Meg my guess would be that this unique drawing style didn’t appeal to a lot of people and Meg was no considered as pretty as the other girls and her unique headshape made it difficult to make a nice doll of her)
    It also progresses the ‘beeing different idea’ that was already brought up in Beauty and the Beast and The Hunchback of Notre Dame. But in this case it’s not the looks. Strenght is often viewed as something positive but we see that it can be troublesome, too.

    9. What is the iconic shot of the film? What single frame of animation do you find to be the most memorable and why? Post it! You can check out this link to find some great screencaps to help!
    “To feel like I belong”
    [​IMG]

    10. What single pin do you think best represents this film for you? Why? Give us the pin number and post a picture!
    Surely most people struggled to use pinpics to get a pin number and picture? I wasn’t really happy with any of the pins I managed to load on that site so I tried via Google. I found something I thought Yes that is the pin I was looking for. But it turned out it’s a FANTASY PIN.
    Pin #116749: Hercules and Ghost Megara Glow in the Dark Fantasy Pin
    [​IMG]

    It is Hercules biggest sacrefise for Meg – his own life for hers He was looking for something during his journey and found something completely different, something he newer knew he needed.

    So I had to come up with something different. A group picture of somew of the important characters is always a fairly good representation for me but I like the fantasy pin much more as an answer for this question.
    Pin# 40445 Disney Auctions - New Classics ( Hercules )
    [​IMG]

    Stray thoughts:

    Hades calls his uncels, the Titans brothers (that’s not an issue with my language where the word testvér - sibling is used and that is also used for close allies. I won’t start a language course but there are some important differences how certain words are used :) ) but I thinks it’s far more problematic that when he asks them what they’ll do next, they say they’ll kill Zeaus. The thing is, Zeus is immortal as a god. And at the beginning it was stated that the must be made mortal first in order to be killed :)

    Pain had to be renamed in the Hungarian dub, his new name is Pech wich means bad luck. Quite suitable, if you ask me but sadly the connection to Ares is lost, as the original names of both Pain and Panic come from Ares’s sons, Phobos and Deimos.

    I always thought that a Hercules and Megara limited edition dollset would make a great set to connect the Fairytale couple series and the Villain-and-Hero series for it could pass as both because Megara worked for Hades after all.

    I loved to pick up the puns from both dubs – some had to be dropped during translation but new ones were made. Double the fun. I do love the puns. :) (These were times when good translation were made. In Wreck it Ralph, they are mostly lost.)

    I just noticed another namechange: when Pain and Panic try to convince Hades that this is not that Hercules and say that every boy is names Jason – in the hun dub it’s Odysseus. No idea why it was done.

    First UFO reported:
    [​IMG]
    It looks like a flying spaceship.

    Those ancient Greece inspired fashions and hairstyles became popular in the early 19th century in England (During the Regency – Jane Austen. There we are.)


    (And as a closing thought: this forum and especially this thread made me feel like I belong. Thank you very much for that.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  18. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    [​IMG]

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
  19. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Me, too :)
    Oh she dropped the wase - she indirectly helps hades take Hercule's strenght and with that fame and wealth (for a short while only)

    I wish I could give Merlin a like for every section of his analysis. I just find myself constantly nodding and muttering yes yes yes, I couldn't agree more. :)
     
  20. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Now I sit here and cry like a baby, no, like Phil staring at my monitor. Thank you, Professor. And Everybody.
     
  21. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    Wait, like....drop out permanently? I hope that I'm just mistaken. I appreciate your thorough in-depth analyses, especially when it's a different opinion that most/all of the other responses. (Like @LittleBird said, it would be boring if everyone had the same response!) Your posts show the deep level of passion you have for these films, and I admire the way you are able to convey this.
     
  22. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Oh, not permanently, please! :( I was looking forward to your Megara analysis @NutMeg!
     
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  23. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    @Meritre I noticed we both pick fantasy pins!

    Loving the analyses so far, keep them up (and of course, @NutMeg needs to provide an analysis!).
     
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  24. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    Ack, ran out of time. Posting what I can now and will come back to finish later today.

    1. This movie is middle of the road for me. I don't think I'd watch it often, but I'd be down to watch it every once in awhile.

    Stylistically it's set apart from the previous films. They cranked up the angularity and roundness of characters and backgrounds, and the saturated colors of the gods set them apart from the mortals.

    Granted, I'm not an expert at the Greek gods, and there is a lot I don't know. But I *do* know enough about the original story that the changes bugged me. (I get that they really can't include a lot of the original story, but this seems almost too sanitized.)

    (Speaking of - why do we refer to these stories as "myths"? Back then, it was an actual religion.)


    5. I went with Hercules' medal.

    (One nitpicky thing - when Hercules finds out he's the son of Zeus, his adoptive parents give him the medal and tell him that it's the symbol of the gods. But it seems as if it's only the symbol of Zeus - all of the other gods seem to either have no symbol or their own symbol.)

    [​IMG]


    When he's a baby, it gives him something to interact with, but also serves as protection in that Amphitryon and Alcmene see it and know he is the son of Zeus, and decide to take him in. Later on, it is used to prove to Hercules who his true parents are.

    After he grows up, he incorporates the medal into his outfit. This way, he always has the symbol of where he came from close to him. (Though if it is indeed the symbol of Zeus, it's interesting that no one else really recognizes this and still treats Hercules as a nobody until he proves himself to them by saving them.).


    8. This movie has several callbacks to the Lion King. The most on-the-nose one is the one that coblj posted about - Scar being used as the lion skin-turned-"throw rug." But the scene with Pain and Panic trying to get rid of baby Hercules is very similar to the scene where the hyenas are trying to get rid of Simba. The henchmen have a plot, it almost works, but something happens to derail it and the child escapes death to safety. The henchmen then hint that they don't have to tell the villain ("You mean, if he finds out!" "And if he comes back, we'll kill him!"); cut to however much time later, when the villain finds out that the child has been alive the whole time.

    All of these movies take place during the same Disney era - the mid to late 90's. Much like the current era has an overall theme of "villains are complex and aren't always who or what they seem to be", the "person who doesn't belong and wants something bigger in life" is one of the main themes of the era we're analyzing currently.


    9. I adore this shot, and think it's pretty iconic.

    [​IMG]

    It is right after he defeats the hydra, his first real "heroic" act in the film. However, he is still pretty torn up and exhausted. This shows the duality of his godliness (strength shown by defeating the hydra) and humanity (unlike in his future conquests, he still shows weakness).

    And it also shows his humility. He just defeated the largest challenge of his life up until now, and rather than showing off, he just stands there and raises his hand. It's like hes just saying hello to the crowd rather than "look what I just did!"

    10. I don't recall there being a pin of the shot above, but this pin depicts the action leading up to the above. It's when he is still not entirely sure of his own capabilities.

    I believe this is from the 110th Legacy collection.

    [​IMG]

    Random Thought

    I love that when Pain and Panic show up as the bunny and gopher, Meg says "Aw, how cute."

    [​IMG]

    This stuck out to me because they were drawn exactly to the specs of the early diagram of how "cute" animals should look.
     
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  25. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    Just a shameless plug for Greek mythology. Scar is standing in (lying down) for the Nemean lion, the first of Hercules's twelve labors.

    Nemean lion - Wikipedia
     

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