The Disney 52 Animated Challenge: Year-Long Activity - NOW PLAYING: Princess and the Frog

Discussion in 'DPF Game Room' started by MerlinEmrys, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    This movie, along with “The Incredibles”, holds a special distinction for me. When I first watched these two movies, I absolutely hated them. And the second time I watched them, I loved them and couldn’t remember what I hated about them. Now this is one of my favorite Disney movies!


    1. My overall impression of the movie… Several things:

    First off, I love the whole general feel of this movie. It doesn’t take itself too seriously and it’s just lots of fun. Lots of jokes that made me laugh, and quotes that I use all the time! These include:

    Jokes:
    • I love that the cactus where Yzma pours her potion is turned into a llama head! Very clever yet subtle!

    [​IMG]

    • I love Kronk’s shoulder angel/devil! Very cool concept and played to great comedic effect. The angel also has one of my favorite quotes: “From above the wicked shall receive their just reward.” (All, looking up at a chandelier) “That’ll work.”
    • I love that Bucky the Squirrel makes a balloon animal and pops it, but it’s Kuzco’s “Ha!” that wakes the sleeping jaguars.
    • I love the chase scene at the (near) end of the movie, including the map with the dashed lines that appear on the ground near Kronk and Yzma. It shows again that this movie isn’t taking itself too seriously.
    • I LOVE Mudka’s Meat Hut!! And I so miss Patty Deutsch, who played the waitress (and whom I loved on “The Match Game” in the 1970s). This was such a cool scene! I loved Kuzco Drag Llama, Chef Kronk, and Yzma’s birthday bash.
    • I loved the whole finale chase scene where Kuzco was changing into different animals from the potions. One question: Why no pin love for these other Kuzcos??

    Quotes:
    • “No touchy!”
    • “Pull the lever, Kronk!” “Wrong lever!” “Why do we even HAVE that lever?”
    • “Demon llama!”
    • “Well, he’s not as dead as we would have hoped.”
    • “I dreamed Dad was tied to a log and was careening out of control down a raging river of death!” “Well, I dreamed Dad had to kiss a llama!”
    • “Yah-huh, “nah-uh”, “yah-huh, “nah-uh”, yah-huh, “nah-uh”, yah-huh, “nah-uh”…
    • “I trusted you!” “Well, that makes you ugly AND stupid!”
    • When Yzma says, “WHY ME??” Kronk responds, “It doesn’t have to be about you.”
    • “Is there or is there not anything edible on this menu?”
    • “Scary beyond all reason.”
    • “You’re more like my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great (etc.) great great aunt.”
    • “You have a lovely wife. They’re both very pretty.”

    Kronk could totally be a Disney Princess, since he “had to be versed in all the woodland creatures [languages]”!

    I love the homages to the “Batman” TV series, in which Eartha Kitt (Yzma’s voice) played Cat Woman (among others). The whole “secret lab” is a huge homage to “Batman”, including the secret entrance, and ride (fireman’s pole), and the automatic costume change. Also, the whole Yzma Kitty conversion is obviously a reference to “Batman”. I mean, they could have turned her into any kind of animal, but a cat? She’s Cat Woman! Duh! Although I will say that in the movie Yzma Kitty is more gray, but on pins she’s always made purple…


    2. You know, I really wanted to analyze Yzma, because… Yzma Kitty, you know? But I felt more compelled to talk about another set of characters. I know this is weird, but I’m going to analyze all of Pacha’s family instead of just one character. I know everyone makes a big deal about Chicha being the first pregnant character in a Disney film (did anyone catch that villain Yzma purposefully knocked over a cup and made a rather pregnant Chicha struggle to pick it up?), but I love that she’s so much more than that, and so are the kids.

    This is one of the first times where a couple, Pacha and Chicha, are BOTH represented as competent, smart, and loving. It’s clear from their interactions that Pacha and Chicha love each other, respect each other, and co-parent together (both mom and dad interact meaningfully with the kids). Chicha isn’t a helpless damsel in distress that must be saved by the heroic and brave Pacha, and Pacha isn't the hopeless idiot whose smart wise-cracking wife must continually save him from his stupidity—they’re equals in this relationship. They’re both positive characters that can stand on their own, but are stronger together. And both realize that having a strong partner doesn’t make you weaker.

    The kids’ characters are also well developed. Sure, they have their stereotypical moments (looking up to mom and dad, fighting with each other, etc.) but they also have distinct personalities and are smart and not helpless. I love that Pacha trusts Chicha, Tipo, and Chaca to handle Yzma and Kronk, saying to Kuzco, “They can handle themselves.” And I love that Chicha was immediately suspicious of Yzma and Kronk, was quick to catch on to the fact that Yzma and Kronk were dangerous, and that she and the kids were aptly able to handle these villains.


    3. and 4. The sequence I chose to analyze was the movie’s introduction, including the song “Perfect World”. The scene with baby Kuzco set up the character pretty quickly. Baby Kuzco cries after breaking his toy, and within seconds there were eight hands offering him a replacement toy, to his amusement. This lets the audience know that Kuzco is spoiled and used to having his every whim catered to.

    The scenes in the song continue to play up Kuzco’s selfishness and absolute authority. When the old man threw off his groove, the guards threw him out a window! Wow. His selfishness (and lack of empathy for others) is also shown by the way he treated his prospective brides. He was very rude, and all of his judgments regarding the ladies were based on physical appearances. Also, when Yzma was talking to him, his inner monologue was all about how old and wrinkled she is and that she had something stuck in her teeth—very shallow.

    These scenes set up Kuzco as very selfish and superficial. But the movie also sets up why Kuzco is this way, and ultimately sets the stage for his redemption (and that he is indeed redeemable). Continued in #6.

    I would point out that the reprise of the song “Perfect World” at the very end of the film (at Kuzcotopia with Kuzco and Pacha’s family) now has new lines which reflect his change in attitude and how friends and family are what is really important.

    (to be continued)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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  2. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    6. While there were more pertinent quotes that match the goal of the movie (see #7), the quotes I chose to analyze came from Yzma (and Kronk).

    #1. From Yzma, while talking to a townsperson: “It is no concern of mine whether your family has… What was it again? (Food) Ha! You really should have thought about that before you became peasants!”
    #2 From Yzma, then Kronk: “Why I practically raised him!” “Yeah, you think he would have turned out better.”

    These quotes let us know that perhaps the reason Kuzco has so little regard for peasants come from being raised by Yzma and that his attitudes represent his upbringing. His interactions with the peasants (old man, Pacha) sort of imply that he hasn’t had much interaction with the peasants and therefore has no empathy for their plight. In his discussion with Pacha about razing his town, Kuzco does seem to enjoy the misery he is causing and does seem like an actual villain, but we’re not really sure if he IS evil or if he is just channeling Yzma’s villainy…

    While Kuzco is redeemable, I think the movie was right to show Kuzco’s redemption as a long process and that his initial dealings with Pacha as a llama still showed his arrogance (“I don’t make deals with peasants!”), selfishness (“This story is about me! Not him!” and scribbling out Pacha with a red marker), and fixation on physicality (“My beautiful face! Ahh! Llama face!”).

    Kuzco Llama also lies to Pacha (and us) about moving Kuzcotopia and shaking hands on the “deal” even after Pacha said “Don’t shake unless you mean it!”. He betrays him later, saying “The thing about shaking hands is… you need hands!” After his trek through the jungle and then realizing that Pacha’s warning about Yzma and Kronk wanting to kill him were true, he started to change his beliefs about Pacha (and peasants) and Yzma (and his upbringing). This “down-and-out” moment finally leads to Kuzco’s redemption, and now we can believe it and we see that he’s the victim and not the villain after all.


    7. OK, for the goal of the movie, I’m going to use a quote from Pacha: “Someday you’re going to wind up all alone, and you’ll have no one to blame but yourself.” Kind of preachy, especially from the ‘home-and-hearth-peasant-stock’ character of Pacha, but still spot on. I think part of Kuzco’s growth into a caring person is based on his interactions with the caring Pacha—he finally is interacting with someone who ISN’T interested in only themselves, and part from recognizing that he really WAS alone in the huge castle (cf. Kronk’s comment to Yzma: “Well, you’ve got a point. No one really seems to care that he’s gone, do they?”). His new-found desire to not be alone after leaving Pacha is demonstrated when he “accepts” being a llama and tries to join their herd. He’s not a good llama, he doesn’t like being a llama, and they don’t accept him right away, but he’s a llama and this is his new family (until he sees Pacha again).

    Another great thing about how the movie was written, when Kuzco Llama meets up with Pacha and it’s clear that he’s humble and changed, Pacha doesn’t make him apologize and just accepts his apology unsaid. Once Kuzco Llama and Pacha make up, they’re a team and the work together against all odds (like Kronk and Yzma) and we ultimately get a happy ending with Kuzco now an (un)official part of Pacha’s family.


    8. This movie has several similarities to other Disney movies. These include:
    • Obviously, the secret ride in the lab is an homage to all of the rides at Disneyland and Disney World. Did anyone else expect a Spanish-language version of the “keep your arms in the vehicle” spiel? Maybe it’s just me…
    • Kronk being told to kill Kuzco by Yzma, but Kronk not being able to do it and allowing him to escape into the town on Pacha’s cart is very reminiscent of “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” (Huntsman/Snow White/Evil Queen) and “Hercules” (Pain & Panic/Baby Hercules/Hades). This archetype is overly used because we have to find a way for the hero to survive the murderous intent of the villain if they are ultimately going to be triumphant. Still…
    • Pacha saves Kuzco from the jaguars by swinging, Tarzan-style, on a vine rope and giving a Tarzan yell.
    • I know somebody mentioned the anachronism of Mushu brushing his teeth with toothpaste and a toothbrush felt out of place, but I have to say that Kuzco Llama gargling with mouthwash, and Tipo waxing the floor with a mechanical buffer didn’t bother me at all in this movie. I think the reason is “Mulan” was meant to be a serious movie, and ENG clearly isn’t taking itself that seriously.
    • In “Tangled” Flynn Rider uses a frying pan as a weapon, and eventually says, “Frying pans. Who knew?” Chicha (and Samwise Gamge from “Lord of the Rings”) did! She good with the frying pan, and I love the floating llamas above Kuzco Llama’s head—very reminiscent of the tweeting birds/stars in “Who Framed Roger Rabbit” (“Ready for my close-up, Raoul!”).
    • The lightning cloud in the chase scene that hits Kronk and Yzma looks exactly like the god symbol on the medal in “Hercules”.
    • In breaking with recent Disney history, the villain does not die in this film. Although, they did fake us out, making Yzma Kitty plummet to her death from the castle. If it weren’t for yet another tongue-in-cheek, not-taking-itself-seriously moment in the movie: “For the last time, we did NOT order a giant trampoline.” Then Yzma Kitty bounces off of it and doesn’t die, “You know, pal, you could have told me that before I set it up!” Priceless!


    9. I chose this scene, with Kuzco Llama and Pacha working together to save their lives (which is then reprised with them saving the potion for Kuzco) because it shows the moment where they started to work together as a team and the start of a budding friendship

    [​IMG]


    10. I chose this pin (48740) because it’s got Kuzco Llama AND Yzma Kitty. You can’t get more iconic than that!!

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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  3. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I love all these so much! Also Yzma with the cucumber and stuff n her face for the night and when she complains that her best shoes are going to be ruined. Also Bucky requesting more personal space to talk to Kronk. And Spinach Puffs! I want some!
    An he dresses in princess colors and gets on well with supposed "enemies" (Patchas family) and has a soft heart.
    I didn't know that! Cool! :)
    Disney made a very loveable and relateable family here and I love that!
    I knew I forgot something. I thought of this at some point and then forgot to add.
    I was hesitating which one to choose but I ended up choosing the other one - to show how far Kuzco got. But I actually wanted to post both, and now that you posted the other end I'm satisfied. :)

    I won't add any more quotes but I could quote your whole analysis and say I couldn't agree more! :)
     
  4. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    @Meritre I was just going to quote yours and say how much I liked YOUR analysis. We always agree on so much.

    I totally missed the whole connection between Hades torching the vases and Yzma smashing the Kuzco heads. Good catch!
     
  5. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    This was a very cool documentary to watch. I thought I'd share a few thoughts about it.

    The original movie felt a whole lot more serious and full of self-importance. It also felt like it was going to be another "ethnic" film, in that "Lion King" was the African film, "Pocahontas" was the Native American film, "Mulan" was the Japanese film, and "Kingdom of the Sun" was going to be the South American film. I didn't really like the first three, and I'm not sure I would have liked the last one.

    Also, at least from the documentary, it looked like Sting was going to sing most of the songs in the film—just like Phil Collins did in "Tarzan". If that were the case, I am SOOOO glad this film was scrapped. I absolutely hate the self-indulgent quality "Tarzan" has, as "Phil Collin's Disney movies... with Apes"—we could have had "Sting's Disney movie... with llamas". UGH!

    I do regret that we didn't get a song from Yzma, because Eartha Kitt was such a fantastic performer and songstress that I would have loved another iconic villain song involving her. I'm even more bummed that we hear a version of "Perfect World" in the documentary with Yzma singing about herself. I SOOO wish that version made it to the film, or at least the credits!

    I recognize the heartbreak of the artists and animators over the radical change of the movie, but I have to say I love the brash irreverent feel of the finished product. The original script looked like just another ho-hum steal-a-book-plot ("Prince and the Pauper") Disney drama/musical movie (although I might have loved it, along with several other of Disney's wonderful films I would put in this category like "Little Mermaid", "Beauty and the Beast", and "Aladdin"—drama/musicals, mind you; not ho-hum.). The current film felt fresher; I can't point to a book from which this plot was stolen (it might be out there, but it wasn't patently obvious to me like it was for "Kingdom of the Sun").

    I also get the feeling that, if Sting weren't busy with other projects, this movie might have been a full-out musical. This wouldn't necessarily have been so bad (except if it became a Sting-fest, and I worry that that would have pulled me out of the Disney magic of the film like "Tarzan" did). But I kind of like the pacing and story feel of this movie without a lot of show-stopping (literally) numbers to slow it down.

    Finally, I agree with Sting's concern about "Funny Friend and Me" not fitting the feel of the movie as a sappy sentimental ballad. I do feel that it doesn't fit the movie's whole tone and feel, and this has always made me not all that fond of this particular song. It just feels so out of place.
     
  6. caw caw rawr

    caw caw rawr Squirrel!

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    I wasn't sure what to expect for ENG analyses. It's not really a serious or deep flick. Just a fun ride. :)
    [​IMG]

    I love what you wrote and I have nothing to add!
    [​IMG]
    The whole movie just makes me happy. That is all. :)
     
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  7. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    1. Emperor's New Grove makes it evident that we are in a new era for Disney movies. All of the movies in the last decade or so, and most up to now, have been serious (in that they have more or less told the story in a straightforward manner, even if there is some humor included), whereas this movie completely subverts that, and nearly every line is a joke or breaks the fourth wall, and it is clear that the writers and animators meant for it to be taken lightly. We've also progressed from movies based on existing myths/fairy tales/novels/historical figures to original stories - a buddy comedy in this case.

    I didn't see Emperor's New Groove for awhile after it came out, but I've liked it since I've seen it. It was refreshing to see such a lighthearted film, and for the most part the humor really worked. Some parts did drag a bit (like all of the *character does something* "A little more..." *character does it a bit more* "A little more...") but not drastically so. And two of my favorite sight gags in all of Disney films were in this (the potted plant turning into a llama and the chase scene with the dotted lines from the map).

    The voice acting was amazing, especially Eartha Kitt as Yzma. However, this did highlight the film's diversity problem. It was set in South America and the characters were Incans, yet no people of color did voices other than the villain.

    I also felt the ending credits song, My Funny Friend and Me, was a bit jarring. The movie was bright, fast, and funny, but the song was almost ballad-y and didn't feel like it fit with the rest of the songs or the movie itself outside of the lyrics.


    6. Yzma: "It is no concern of mine whether or not your family has... what was it again?"
    Peasant: "Umm... food?"
    Yzma: "Ha! You really should have thought of that before you became peasants!"

    This line, while it can be seen as a throwaway joke line, is actually very indicative of the viewpoints of the rulers of this land. Kuzco and Yzma see the peasants as merely there to serve them. The only problems they can understand are their own personal ones, so when their subjects come to them with their own issues, they cannot empathize. They see the troubles of the peasants as being self-made, rather than caused by the system of governance.

    This is paralleled in today's politics. Whether they actually believe it or use it as an excuse to stay in power and rile up their bases, many of today's politicians claim that marginalized people are in their situation because of their own doing. For example, poor people are only poor because they make bad choices in life, not because our current societal system works against them raising out of poverty.


    7. One of the overall goals of the film is to explore morality and how our position in life can affect our moral compass. Through the actions of multiple characters, we can see this play out:

    Kronk - his morality is the most literal of the characters, as he has a shoulder angel and devil that he consults when faced with a decision. We don't know much of his backstory other than he was picked by Yzma to be her henchman about a year ago, but it's probably safe to assume he wasn't really into villainy before joining up with her. This would lend itself to his dilemma - do the bidding of his boss or do the morally good thing.

    Pacha - he generally does the morally right thing, though he is tempted to solve his problems the easy way multiple times by leaving Kuzco in the jungle to die. This comes with living in a small rural village, where caring for others is vital for the preservation of the community. (Note that all of his moral quandaries come from what will save his home and village.)

    Kuzco - he starts out completely self-absorbed, but through his interactions with Pacha, he starts to learn how to act selflessly. This is a reflection of how he was raised - his every whim was taken care of without even asking, and his entire world revolved around him. He didn't HAVE to worry about anyone else. Being around Pacha (and overhearing Yzma) made him realize that his actions did actually negatively affect others, and he was able to learn some empathy.


    9. To highlight the lesson of morality throughout the movie, the best visualization is the literal one of Kronk's shoulder angel and devil.

    [​IMG]


    10.
    [​IMG]

    Pin# 100799 - WDW - Imagination Gala - Framed Set - Have a Laugh - Kronk, Devil Kronk, and Angel Kronk ONLY

    This pin demonstrates the lesson of morality as mentioned earlier, and is the closest pin I could see to my iconic shot.
     
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  8. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    1. Overall Impression
    I’ve always enjoyed this film, but it’s totally surface level, hahah! It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but this one really doesn’t have a whole lot of “meat”. It’s goal is just to be fun and silly and, in that respect, it succeeds in stride. But on the substance level, it’s pretty vapid. Yes, there’s the a moral, and Kuzo certainly learns a lesson, but there’s next to no subtly in its delivery and it’s underneath so much silly humor that it loses any punch it may have had. Again, that’s not always a bad thing, because this film wasn’t trying to be anything but what it is. But overall, I’d call it silly. Hahah!

    Also, coming on the heels of Dinosaur where, as @timeerkat mentioned, the voice acting seemed completely phoned in, this film’s acting was impeccable. This is probably the first Disney film where I was familiar with basically the entire cast before seeing the movie (especially Goodman and Spade). And even though I really don’t like David Spade, everything for him was spot on here, as was everyone’s performance. So kudos to them and the direction for providing a killer performance.


    3. Scene Analysis
    I know this film had a lot of issues making it to the finish line, and I get the feeling that there were so many hiccups that eventually someone just said “Make it happen—it doesn’t have to make sense,” which gives us the hokey voice-over narration throughout the first half of the film. And while that works okay (certainly not a preference), there were spots where it was just a little much. When the camera zooms all the way out to the monkey, for example, was an extreme moment of break for the film, even for a film that embraces breaking that fourth wall.

    But one spot that both worked well and that I hated because it was SUCH a break was just after Pacha returns home and Kuzco literally stops the film reel to “remind” the audience of the film’s focus.

    [​IMG]

    I rolled my eyes and chuckled, but was seriously perturbed that this rather troubling moment for Pacha gets undercut by Kuzco’s selfish goof. And then I realized that’s the point!!! The VO’s whole purpose is to “try” and win the audience to Kuzco’s side, but of course it has the opposite effect because of how much of a jerk he is and his selfish perspective. And so for Kuzco to try and steal this moment of sympathy from Pacha is exactly within his character and has the opposite effect, because now I like him even less. Not only has he interrupted my movie for something that’s honestly not that funny, but he stole a moment from Pacha. And while that annoys me, that’s exactly what the filmmakers wanted. A cheap gag that does double work for aligning us with the respective characters.


    6. Dialog Analysis / 7. Overall Goal
    In a movie all about deus ex machina, the granddaddy of all plot holes was how Yzma and Kronk beat them to the lab. It’s such a glaring hole that they just make a joke out of it:

    [​IMG]

    And Kronk’s line, “By all accounts, it doesn’t make sense,” is like the anthem for the film. Hahah! It’s a great moment, one that doesn’t give the audience any choice but to just roll with it, which is the whole point of the movie. Just roll with it and enjoy the ride. While that’s a little contradictory to Disney’s normal MO for films, it somehow works perfectly well here. Though if I think about it too hard, it rankles me—but the film doesn’t want me to think about it too hard. Hahah!


    8. Connections
    Shout out to @Meritre for catching the Hades thing with Yzma! I knew that scene was familiar somehow, and that’s exactly it. :)


    9. Iconic Shot
    If it’s not the map shot from the gif above, I’ll have to go with the iconic “Buddy Film” shot:

    [​IMG]

    It’s a little on the nose, but still a solid moment, hahah!


    10. Representative Pin
    While I love the pin that goes with my scene (123474), I think I’ll have to go with the anniversary spinner:

    [​IMG]
    Pin 114922 WDI - Emperor's New Groove 15th Anniversary

    It’s got the cast, the Mesoamerican styling, and of course, a transformation spinner element. What’s not to love? ;P


    Stray Thoughts

    *This film is so infinitely quotable. Hahah! I really love the writing.

    *It also gives us the best Disney meme ever: College Majors Explains

    *What an amazing depiction of a full, happy family. :) Pacha's family definitely gets the most heartwarming award. :D
     
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  9. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    A few more things:

    ~ Chicha is a BADASS. She was probably my favorite character.

    ~ One thing that really bothered me was a remnant of 90's culture (that still lingers today), where ANY amount of physical contact between two men that could in any way be seen as intimate must be justified as - to coin a recent phrase - "no homo." For example, after Pacha almost gives mouth to mouth to Kuzco to save his life, they spend an uncomfortable amount of time explaining that "OH GOSH NO IT WASN'T A KISS!" and playing that for laughs.
     
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  10. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Yes we do! And it makes the whole even more fun! :)
    Again, I have to agree!
    *nods and nods again*
    That was the moment when I thought it was a bit too much. (I was okay with the zooming out part but this was just too much. I didn't like it.)
    It is! (That's why I went with that one, too :D )
    Now that I think it, it is a movie we use a lot of quotes from at home. :)
    I'm there. Architecture aaaand... linguistic, I guess.
    She's the best :)
    I didn't think that part funny :oops:
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  11. pincrazy

    pincrazy Active Member

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    It's time to get back in the movie analysis Groove! :p

    1) Overall impression-pure comic relief with heart! Wasn't sure what to expect or if this had any credible history lesson, but seems it's an animated entertainment, with life lessons of friendship, loyalty, family, and trust. The style seems different from the earlier stories in pace, comedy, animation, and music.
    2) Hmm I choose ......Yzma, she's voiced by Eartha Kitt that alone makes her classy, sassy, and best kitty! She's not complicated, gets a fresh boy toy every 10 years, tries to overthrow Kuzco by death, she knows what she wants and on a mission to succeed at all cost. Apparently she's been planning and waiting for the perfect moment to take over for a long time.
    She's the diva, and it's nice to see that she can get a Kronk to feed her demanding ways.
    4) There weren't many songs to choose from.
    "My Funny Friend and Me", is a melancholy friendship song, not as catchy as Newman's "You Have a Friend in Me", but with Sting's voice it's a smooth tune, with lyrics on a meaningful, adapted friendship that normally would not have existed. We're never too old, too prominent, too simple to make meaningful friends, and those are the ones we remember and cherish for the lessons we learn.
    5) The symbol is the Sun. It's the main god of the civilization, and why Kuzco picks Pacha's hillside village, and brings the 2 characters together.
    7) Overall goal seemed to be to teach an egotistical young emperor, there's more to being a leader and life than just what He wants, and to gain some empathy. It's a fast paced, hip, comedic animated film that reaches a wide audience, and family oriented. Because it's Disney, they've gotten a wide group of voices, Tom Jones, Eartha Kitt, John Goodman, David Spade, Sting, Patrick Warburton, Kellyann Kelso it covers quite a few age groups.
    It's not a Disney classic, more of a filler type of film between larger projects, but still an enjoyable, fun adventure.

    Well that's it for me:stitch:
    TTFN, now to catch up on 3 weeks of analysing :cool:
     
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  12. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    Initial thoughts:
    One thing that sticks out in my mind is how distinct it is from the rest of the movies before, we have a very comical movie that takes place after years and of serious/semi serious films. I do feel it marks the end of Disney Renaissance as it doesn't seem like it is groundbreaking at all to say the least; the good things it does have is the straightforward comedic plot and one liners as well as the characters: The Ice quee..uhh king turned Llama Kuzco, the maniacal Yzma, the Halfwitted Kronk, and the goodhearted Pacha. The art direction seems aimed at a cartoonish level of bright distinct colors versus the level of detail we've seen in the past few years. Musically it seems to have focused on the bare sitcomesque style soundtrack, not including the original/recycled song that Sting performs in the credits. At 75 minutes it is roughly 10-15 minutes shorter then most of it's predecessors but when you factor in the 10-15 minutes repeated/stopped framing you start to realize a bit of the cost cutting/rushing that went into it's completion as they pretty much scrapped the work already completed and started anew.

    2. Character Analysis
    Yzma's character is a slightly different compared to her original profile. Originally she was to be vain(like the wicked queen) and a bit more fleshed out villain in wanting to stay young. In the released version, you still see that gravitas about her, but vanity no longer plays a role in her character as she now is just wanting to kill Kuzco for the throne. She seems to be an inspired combination of several villains, including Ursula as well as Cruella D'vil. Ironically, her inclusion as a kitten in the end mimics her other voice actresses well known character persona as Cat-woman. The dropped portion of her vanity involving blocking the sun later becomes the subject of an episode for the Latin American inspired Elena de Avalor.

    8. Progressions
    Along with many recognizable voice talents, the voice actor of piglet, John Fielder, is also in this film; the scene whereas he is thrown out the window of the palace seems taken straight from the Studio Ghibli anime The Cat Returns. The Tarzan yell, a nod to the previous' years feature, is yelled by John Goodman as he saves Kuzco from the jaguars by swinging vine. The rotting bridge also seems to take cues from the Donald Duck short of him visiting Lake Titicaca.

    9. Iconic Scene
    There isn't an iconic persay that jump at me though there are a bunch of one liners. This Is one of my favorite ones of the film.
    [​IMG]

    10. Representative Pin.
    This pin features the main cast of characters. The background is quite similar to the magic mirror from Snow White, from whose villain Yzma takes a bit of inspiration from.
    Pin 114922 WDI - Emperor's New Groove 15th Anniversary

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
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  13. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
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    [​IMG]
    Atlantis: The Lost Empire (2001)

    Monday/Tuesday is our "wrap-up" discussion on The Emperor's New Groove. So you're welcome to respond to other analyses throughout the day.

    However, you may not post any more full analyses for The Emperor's New Groove to count for completion toward the 52 Challenge. No late homework. ;P

    ~Merlin
     
  14. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    I've been ruminating on this for the past few days, and it's really, REALLY important and awesome that Pacha sees Chicha as competent and can hold her own, and at the same time Pacha is not a bumbling incompetent "dumb dad."

    Even in the movies where the main/only female is seen as just as or more able to take care of herself than the leading man is (Meg in Hercules, Eilonwy in Black Cauldron, Mulan in Mulan), she has to PROVE this to him and everyone around her before they can see it. Chicha is established as this from the very start. It's just stated as a point of fact that Chicha can take care of herself, and it ISN'T QUESTIONED. As a counter, when a woman is seen as the "competent" one, her male counterpart is often depicted as bumbling/lazy/dumb/clumsy/etc. Pacha is none of these things. In fact, they show him as great with his kids, clever, strong, hardworking, etc. Neither is shown as the "better" parent - the kids interact with each of them equally and don't really favor one over the other. They spend more time with Chicha just because she stays home with them while Pacha is away, but when he returns they talk to him just like they do with their mom.

    What makes this all the more amazing is that this pairing of two competent equals is done in one of the most heavily "COMEDY" movies of the entire series. It would have been so easy to go the route that most comedy movies and sitcoms, especially of this era, took with couples (one competent person and one not so much).

    AND. While they do have the "Dude Bro No Homo" thing going on when Pacha is paired with Kuzco, they also do show Pacha as having a fairly large amount of sensitivity, gentleness, and warmth with his family and their llamas. He jokes and plays around with his kids, he sits quietly in the field and talks to the herd, he shows affection to his wife, etc.

    Basically, the more I think of it, the more that Pacha and Chicha move up on my favorite Disney couples list.
     
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  15. caw caw rawr

    caw caw rawr Squirrel!

    Rating - 100%
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    ^^This is why I wish there were more than one pin of Chicha.^^

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    YES! I almost cheered out loud when I saw her on the ENG cluster. Will definitely have to pick her up if/when they make her a PTD. (Pacha/Chicha couples PTD even?)
     
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  17. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
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    Rejoice, my fellow 52-vians! For I have finally updated everyone's medals! XD Please go back and double check me as it was, like, two months worth of badge updates. XD My bad.

    Anywho, hopefully moving forward I'll be more on top of it. :3 Thanks!
     
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  18. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

    Rating - 100%
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    I’m still not exactly sure how I feel about this film. Part of me thinks it’s a tired and uninspired rehash of a lot of other movies, with very little original ideas or themes, and then part of me feels like it’s just a basic adventure story that’s meant to be good fun but nothing serious or earth-shattering.


    1. My overall impression of the movie… Several things:

    First off, this movie suffers from a lack of credibility/suspension of disbelief that probably bothers me more than others, but here goes…

    Language: What are the odds that the Atlantian language and English would be a LETTER-FOR-LETTER translation? Milo’s writing on the chalkboard at the beginning of the movie shows that the term “COAST OF ICELAND” in both languages have the same number of letters in each word, and the first letter in the first word is the same as the second letter in the third word, the second letter of the first word and the first letter of the second word have the same symbol, etc. That’s not how foreign languages work! “Lilo and Stitch” do this in their movie as well, but the language isn’t a major plot point in L&S like it is in this movie, so it matters less.

    Also, if Atlantian is a “dead language” that appears only in written text (no chance of audio recordings in 1914 of a very old language), then how does Milo recognize it instantly. I mean, if we looked at the Greek language—having never heard anyone speak it but just seeing the letters—how would we know which letter was ‘M’ or ‘A’ or ‘S’, etc.?

    Thermodynamics: All right, chemist here so most people might not think about this too much, but I can’t NOT think about it! While the city is very beautiful and esthetically pleasing, the science (energetics) behind its existence is very troubling.

    OK, so the city is an island in the “ocean” on a platform that forms a circle of waterfalls as the water falls away (below) the circle into the lava. I get why the water is leaving (gravity, and all) but where is the water COMING FROM? Is it being “sucked up” by a pump somehow to continually flow down the waterfalls? This could be possible, if not rather unbelievable in the sheer expense of energy needed to do this, EXCEPT…

    All of the water from the waterfall is running into a ring/moat of molten lava! OK, the lava must be hotter than 100 °C to be molten rock (probably a WHOLE LOT higher), and water must be lower than 100 °C to be liquid (probably a fair amount below since the people and animals can safely swim in it). SOO, the molten lava will transfer huge amounts of energy to the liquid water and the water will in turn boil (we can see that from the billowing clouds of steam where the water and lava meet, just like in Hawaii!). What we DON’T see, however, is the molten lava solidifying into sand/land. And if the water is boiling away, then it couldn’t really be pumped back into the city to fall again down the waterfall.

    As I said, it’s a beautiful esthetic, but it just doesn’t work from a science standpoint!

    Other issues:
    The film feels a lot like the “Indiana Jones” trilogy, and seems to borrow from them (and the genre, in general). I list this here and not in 8. Because the IJ films aren’t Disney films. The whole archeologist (linguist) becomes treasure hunter feels like a rehash of IJ, the gift and use of the Shepherd’s Book feels like Indiana Jones using his father’s grail diary in the ‘Last Crusade’ to solve the mystery of the knight’s cave to get to the grail, the general feel of the Leviathan battle and the final battle with Rourke also reminds me of the IJ films and the Saturday-morning serials from the 50s and 60s.

    Besides the huge science issue, I found a couple of simple but obvious mistakes (“bloopers”). The most obvious one is the “missing page” in the Shepherd’s Book. Milo goes on about there maybe being a missing page in the book because the book talks about the “Heart of Atlantis” on this page and “then it cuts off”. And that’s all fine and good except the last page of the Heart discussion is the front page and the “new stuff” is the back page of THE SAME PAGE!! Obviously, there can’t be a page missing between the two sides of the same page! Oops!!


    2. The character I chose to analyze was Preston Whitmore, the man who funded the trip to get the Shepherd’s Book from Iceland and the subsequent trip to find Atlantis. In support of my first idea that this movie is a tired rehash, I have to say this character reminds me a LOT of how Yoda was introduced and how he initially behaved in “Empire Strikes Back”.

    Yoda is introduced to Luke as a “great warrior”—Luke wasn’t really lied to by Obi-Wan, but clearly Luke’s ideas of what that meant or what Yoda would be like weren’t dissuaded by Obi-Wan. Similarly, Helga introduces the persona of Whitmore to Milo by implying that he’s a very arrogant, demanding, and capricious millionaire whose whims and desires must be handled very carefully and to the letter.

    When Luke meets Yoda, he’s a bumbling annoying “nobody” that Luke must tolerate to get what he wants (to meet the great warrior), and Yoda plays that up. Similarly, Whitmore’s first encounter with Milo has him acting like a lunatic—a crazy, nutjob, eccentric millionaire whose sanity should be questioned.

    Once Luke blows his cool and Yoda sees his impatience, he drops the bumbling annoying persona and becomes deadly serious and calm when talking to Obi-Wan’s ghost about Luke’s immaturity. Once Milo says the right thing, Whitmore changes his demeanor and his obvious performance as an eccentric lunatic disappears and he becomes more serious, more credible, more lucid, etc.

    I feel like ESB was trying to make a point about the danger of making assumptions about a creature based on his demeanor, and this point needed to be learned by Luke so that he would recognize and accept the help of the fluffy, and tiny Ewoks to defeat the Empire. In this movie, I just don’t see the point of having Whitmore play crazy or eccentric to Milo. I’m not sure he had a lesson to learn about not judging people by their behaviors/appearances—he accepted the Atlantians readily enough, and their appearance/behavior didn’t make them seem less than noble or useful.


    3. The sequence I chose to analyze was the expedition’s trek to find Atlantis after fighting with the Leviathan. It just feels like such a cliché! It starts out with Milo being an obvious nerd/geek that is insecure, physically less than intimidating, and socially inept/awkward. I get that they are having him start out as a loser/underdog (can’t speak well publicly, can’t drive a stick shift, sent the expedition in wrong directions that led to a giant caterpillar, “drank nitroglycerine” and believed it, flinched when Audrey hit him, etc.). But then, magically!, the team asks him to sit with them around the campfire and suddenly everyone’s very chummy and friendly and he’s instantly accepted as part of the team!, and the acceptance was just so quick and all of their attitudes changed so abruptly. After that, he was noticeably less awkward and causing fewer embarrassing problems, and also an invaluable asset to the team due to his linguistics. Very cliché and arbitrary.


    5. The symbol I chose to analyze was the Shepherd’s Book. It represents the source of knowledge. And it can be used for good (by you or with people working with you) or it can be used for evil (against you, or worse, by someone forcing you to use the knowledge against your own self interest in order to save the life of someone you care about). The good thing about knowledge, though, is that sometimes people who don’t have the knowledge but have brute force (or guns) they are using against you can’t always tell if you’re giving them the whole truth or even lying to them about the knowledge.


    7. As far as the goal of the movie, I’m not sure it has a really deep meaning. It feels like it’s more just a fun adventure where the good guys fight the bad guys, good finally triumphs, and we get a happy ending. I guess there’s probably something in there about “trust in yourself and your abilities”, “trust your gut in terms of doing the right thing”, etc. but those feel a bit marginalized or ignored in this story.


    8. This movie has several similarities to other Disney movies. These include:

    • Helga is a femme fatale. She reminds me of Jessica Rabbit and Meg except she really is a villain and that makes her less likeable. Most of the other characters make a moral redemption, but she doesn’t. She dies betrayed by Rourke and in her dying breath, betrays him right back. Not because she’s saving Kida and the Atlantians but because she’s punishing Rourke for betraying her.
    • The final chase with Kida in her box in tow, escaping from the river of lava feels an awful lot like Aladdin escaping the river of lava on the Magic Carpet.
    • Milo staying with Kida (love interest) and the “Natives” at the end of the movie feels an awful lot like Jane (and her father) staying with Tarzan (love interest) and the Apes.


    9. I chose this scene, because it’s just really cool looking. I know I said couldn’t suspend my scientific disbelief about the waterfalls and the molten lava, but the shield created by the statues is just a seriously cool image.

    [​IMG]

    10. I chose this pin (13172) because the movie kind of feels like a copy/homage to the Indiana Jones adventure movies, and this pin kind of shows the adventurer Milo and the Shepherd’s Book. I’m not exactly sure why I chose the Sedesma pin instead of the WDI Hero pin; I just liked it better.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
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  19. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

    Rating - 100%
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    1. Atlantis is a movie that I want to like more than I actually do. I think they meant for it to be an action movie to appeal to boys, but also have a deep message about preserving culture, but also have a love story, but also be inspired by Jules Verne, but also show how greed is bad, but also, but also, but also...it just got muddled up and doesn't truly hit on any one thing. It relied too heavily on coincidences for my liking, and the Atlantians being able to instantly know all other languages bothered me. Even if Atlantian shared the same root language as all the rest, I find it hard to believe that they could instantly understand, pronounce, and correctly conjugate German, French, Japanese, etc. after hearing, at most, a short sentence of it. And don't get me started on English, the most convoluted and mashed-up language of all.

    It also isn't really explained well why the Atlantians can't read. Atlantis sinks when Kida is a small child, but surely there are other adults around who were already able to read when that happens. Thousands of years have passed, which would have been plenty of time for her to learn (and as the princess who would someday assume the throne, reading would be an essential skill for her to have). I don't think they said that her father forbade reading. Did they mean that the knowledge of how to read faded away with time? If so, wouldn't the knowledge of the spoken language also fade away? To me, Kida's illiteracy was put in merely as a plot device to show how clever Milo was and to have an excuse for him to go with her so the others can go in for the double cross while he's distracted. (Which runs into another problem this film had - White Savior Complex. The Atlantians had a civilization that had survived for thousands of years, but was dying on its own, until Milo came along to save the day.)

    The dialogue is very fast at times - sometimes so fast that if I didn't watch with subtitles I would have lost what they were saying. Some of the voice acting is spot on, but some of it seems almost like they're trying too hard? (I love Michael J. Fox, but I don't think this is one of his better performances.) And some of it makes no sense - like at the beginning, when Milo is chasing down Mr. Harcourt and threatens to quit, Mr. Harcourt says "You have a lot of potential, Milo. Don't throw it all away chasing fairy tales." But...isn't Milo the laughingstock of the museum? This concern for his future really comes out of nowhere when Mr. Harcourt and the rest of the Board seem like they'd want nothing more than for Milo to leave.

    Also, Milo's defeat of Rourke was...weird? He cuts Rourke with the glass shard, and then...Rourke turns into a crystal as well? Did Milo know that would happen, and if so, how did he know? No one up to this point turned into a crystal by being cut by something imbued with crystal energy. Or did he not know and just wanted to cut him to try to get away, and that just happened?

    But there are some things I really liked. The supporting team was full of fun, distinctive characters, and showed a range of diversity both onscreen and with the voice actors. I especially liked Audrey. The use of color throughout was effective as well - pre-Atlantis scenes were dark with greyish/brownish tones, and after they found Atlantis it was lush with blues and greens. This is even true of the character design - the non-Atlantians were dressed in drab colors, mostly black with dark shades of other colors, whereas the Atlantians were dressed in pastel colors with white hair and bright blue tattoos.


    6. "Audrey: Where are you going?
    Milo: I'm going after Rourke.
    Audrey: Milo, that's crazy!
    Milo: I didn't say it was the smart thing, but it is the right thing."

    Even though the odds are stacked against him, Milo's sense of duty towards saving Kida and preserving Atlantis won out. This highlights his honorable nature against the betrayal that just occurred. Up until now, he's taken a backseat and followed orders; this is the moment he shifts from passive to active.


    7. Though it did have a lot of elements showed into it, I got two big messages from this movie.

    1 - The appreciation and worth of cultures different than your own.

    2 - Greed is a negative trait, and if you let it get the best of you it can lead to your downfall. If Rourke had been content with just bringing back proof of Atlantis, he would have been plenty rich and famous because of that. But his greed for the crystal and the money he could get from it won out, which ultimately resulted in his death.


    9. My most iconic shot is of Kida imbued with the spirit of the crystals surrounded by the carvings of the previous leaders. It highlights Kida's strength and sacrifice for the good of her community. (And has some of my favorite animation in the movie.)

    [​IMG]

    10. Another movie with very few pins. Of the small availability, I chose Kida's heroine profile, which focuses on the crystal, which is the lifeblood of her entire civilization.

    [​IMG]

    Random Thoughts

    ~ So, I kept getting Firefly vibes throughout this viewing. Not only from every time they mentioned the Shepherd's Journal (Shepherd Book), but also Audrey reminded me very much of Kaylee. Lo and behold, during the credits, I see Joss Whedon listed as one of the writers! I wonder if Atlantis gave him any inspiration for Firefly or vice versa (Atlantis came out in 2001 and Firefly in 2002, which is close enough to make me think it wasn't coincidence). I also wonder if he had a say in Vinnie's family being florists (a running theme across his works - Buffy and Dr. Horrible notably).

    ~ WHAT IS MOLE'S STORY? Not wanting to hear is played for laughs, but I'd love to know what his backstory is.
     
  20. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

    Rating - 100%
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    Yes, you touch upon some other elements that bothered me, though the languages bit bothered me more than the science bit, since some of the science could be explained away because of the crystals and their energy which are solely a part of Atlantis until the very end, but the language is something that has entered the "real world."

    I'm surprised you didn't mention Milo's cat (and its amazing sense of timing)! :D

    [​IMG]
     
  21. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0

    Ugh, been working the whole weekend up till now, hopefully I'll be able to get a review in tommorow but if not I'll pick up one of the bonuses...
     
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  22. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

    Rating - 100%
    256   0   0

    I double checked and you got them all. :)

    Good luck!
     
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  23. pincrazy

    pincrazy Active Member

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    Ugh, I forgot to watch it!!! I have it just forgot to flip to DVD :(
    Ok will catch up next week
     
  24. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0

    Okay, going to start now while I'm on break and finish it after work.
    1. Overall Impression
    I was actually surprised at this movie, in many ways it shys away from the kid friendly adventure to a tale/morality play. I thought that this is one of my favorite films post renaissance though it saddens me to see that it was considered a dissapointment. The cast is by far recognizable, Michael J Fox, Cree Summers, and Leonard Nimoy amongst the most distinguishable actors amongst the cast. The art style is interesting though the use of 3D computer animation is very recognizable. The music itself is more serious/epic/global though it it makes me wonder if they were considering Kida sing when Cree Summers was brought onboard as she is a professional singer.
    5. Symbolism
    The film itself doesn't shy away from showing death, the opening scene showing the impending peril that befalls the majority of the Atlantean population. In terms of the movie showing the archeological team quickly become inhumane mercenaries, note how it shows the deaths of the crew. It is interesting to note that it shows the fairly distinguishable faces or characteristics early on, while as the numbers of crew members diminishes in size they tend to lose their human individuality that in favor of a full armor/helmets/weapons. Even Rourke's death in the end shows him ultimately losing his humanity as the source turns him inhuman before succumbing to his fate.

    6. Quotes
    We're All Gonna Die... I don't know whether to laugh or to shake my head at all the times Packard nonchalantly deadpan this phrase; You know to expect something horrible to happen after she says this. I couldn't initially place her voice actress but it turns out it is Florence Stanley, who also voiced the grandmother in the TV show Dinosaurs...

    8. Progressive Themes.

    The scene of Kida being lifted into the crystal stasis is a a mimic of Beast's transformation back into the prince though in reverse. This also marks Jim Varney's final film role, for which he was also known for his roles as Ernest and Slinky Dog(Toy Story series).

    9. Iconic Scenes.
    These are actually a pair of Iconic scenes that go together. One is of the expedition group looking into the ruins of the city. The next is of our group of surviving heroes looking outward toward the resurrected city from the palace. It actually reminds me of the intro to the videogame, Secret of Mana...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    10. Representative Pin.
    [​IMG]
    I like this pin of Milo as it showcases him as a dedicated archeologist. Note the Atlantean spiral symbol he is inconspicuously stepping on...
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  25. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

    Rating - 100%
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    I've been pretty sick over the past few days, so this one is gonna be quick. :/ stupid flu...

    1) I enjoy this movie quite a bit. Russ even watched it with me and said he liked it a lot. But despite a lot of opportunities for it to get really deep, it just never goes there. It relies heavily on witty writing and gags but doesn't quite seem to have the confidence to dig into itself.

    I very much appreciate the representation in the film, as we have a lot of cultures and ethnicities involved, but they don't take enough time to develop them. So these characters, save for Audrey or Sweet perhaps, end up being kinda flat.

    And as plenty of others have noted, there are a lot of logical leaps that the film just wants us to accept. And sometimes that's a harder pill to swallow.

    2) I liked Helga a lot and see her as a small evolution of the Jessica Rabbit character. When we first meet her, she's got the femme fatale attitude, decked out in her cocktail dress and appearing in the shadows with her bare leg highlighted. But next we we see her, she's in a tank top and cargo pants. She's perfectly capable of taking care of herself, but knows how to use her "feminine wiles" to get what she wants. Though she was ultimately duped by the baddie, she didn't throw a pity party and just went straight for revenge, which was pretty sweet.

    6) Toward the climax of the film, Rourke says, "Barnum was right..." and then proceeds to double cross everyone. I'm not totally sure what he meant by this. The only thing I (and the internet) can figure is that he's referring to the apocryphal "There's a sucker born every minute" quote from P. T. Barnum. This would fit with his character and the moment of the film, as he realizes his band of mercenaries have all suddenly grown a conscience.

    But if anyone else has a better answer to this, I'd love to hear it!

    9) I can't find a still of the scene from my phone, so I'll have to use a gif.

    [​IMG]

    But the scene where Kida does "super saiyan" has always been the coolest visual. When the beam centers on the crystal. It's something I always remember from this film.

    10) as blah as it seems, I'm going with the simple Shepard's Journal pin as my representative choice.

    [​IMG]
    Pin 43255 Atlantis Book (Shepherd's Journal)

    The symbol of the journal (and knowledge) is potent, so. I think it gives a good idea as to the spirit of the film.

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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