The Disney 52 Animated Challenge: Year-Long Activity - NOW PLAYING: Wreck-It Ralph AND Frozen

Discussion in 'DPF Game Room' started by MerlinEmrys, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. LittleBird

    LittleBird Well-Known Member

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    Although I don't have the mental spoons to participate in the discussions, I greatly enjoy reading them! Especially when they get into source works since the concept and mechanics of the process of adaptation fascinate me. It's like studying artistic evolution (in the Darwinian sense--how does each progressive work fit into and mirror its zeitgeist, i.e., environment). I especially love contemplating questions 7 and 8--those are great prompts, Merlin! :)

    For these reasons, I'm very much looking forward to the Peter Pan discussion!
     
  2. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Ooh ooh ooh! This is my dissertation!!!!! :D

    So! Queen Victoria was massively important to literature during this time period. Beyond the gender shift of having a woman on the throne--this wasn't met with as much anxiety as you might think--there was the anxiety that her husband, Prince Albert, a German, would become a kind of shadow ruler (and him being foreign, well, people didn't like it so much...). However, Victoria would not be cowed by her husband as far as rule was concerned. She adamantly maintained her sovereignty (note, he's never "King" Albert, only Prince). Victoria was stubborn, strong, and made sure her voice was heard and followed. Despite her stern backbone, she deeply loved Albert and fawned on him quite a bit, which added to his popularity. The populous had a difficult time grappling these two very different sides of Victoria, and so in many ways she was split: the devoted wife and mother ("Angel in the Home"), and the stern, sometimes fearful ruler. If anyone is more interested in this particular topic, I'm happy to sidebar the conversation. :D

    Albert died in 1861, just a few years before Carroll wrote the first Alice book. Victoria's response to her husband's death was extravagant and she went into a deep depression and frankly removed herself for all forms of public appearance and business for many years. So much so that someone famously posted a "For Rent" sign outside of Buckingham Palace. During the Queen's absence, writers went about finding replacement "mothers" and "queens" since the people were certainly feeling their ruler's absence. In this way, we get authors like Carroll, Kipling, and Barrie trying to fill that gap. In Carroll's works, we get the Duchess and the Queen of Hearts in Wonderland--one is a staunch and ugly mother, the other a queen of "blind fury". However, in Looking-Glass, we get the Red Queen who is "Fury, but of another type; her passion must be cold and calm – she must be formal and strict, yet not unkindly; pedantic to the 10th degree, the concentrated essence of all governesses" (Carroll). The two are often conflated, as they are in Disney's Alice because I imagine them as split portions of Victoria herself, with Carroll playing Humpty Dumpty trying to put the pieces together.

    As for the King of Hearts, he is certainly less of a presence than his wife in the book, though not quite as utterly insignificant as Disney's KoH. Though, I certainly think it's a set up of Alfred and Victoria--the latter who is often bull-headed, the prior who tried to quell the storm a tad. Albert was well loved and respected by the common people, though the governing body was more anxious about his potential over-influence, which would explain Carroll's interpretation of the King in Wonderland. Albert was intent on due coarse and procedure, and the King has the famous line: "'Begin at the beginning,' the King said, very gravely, 'and go on till you come to the end: then stop.'" (which gets swiped by the Hatter in Disney's version). As Nutmeg mentioned, I think this sort of Victorian class commentary would have not only been lost on American audiences, but it would have been long outdated (we will see much more commentary on English society in Mary Poppins...). Thus, the King gets even further shrunk down in importance and influence and falls into that "henpecked" category for the laughs.

    I think what's more likely is that Disney's Queen and King relationship may be coming out of the post-war anxiety of women moving out of the work place (a position of economic power) and back into the home (a traditionally submissive role at this time). Having just reveled in the "Rosie the Riveter" era, I imagine there was some push-back from women as the power flow shifted again out of their favor. I'm by no means an American historian, but that's just a hunch. So Disney's representation could easily be a version of "Come on, guys. You don't really want this? Women in power turns into this and men without power are totally ignored."--so negatively lampooning the power structure that no one in their right mind would say "Oh yes, this is how it should be." Disney's subtle sexism is widely disputed, argued, supported, and debunked. But I don't think it's too much of a stretch to see it percolating a bit here in our powerful female villain here (and in Lady Tremaine, and Maleficent, and the Evil Queen, and Ursula, and......)
     
  3. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    I'm glad you're enjoying reading along! But please, and this goes for everyone, don't be intimidated or put off or feel inadequate if your readings aren't as "academic" as others! There is no such thing as a wrong interpretation! And the beauty of what we're doing (and what I do for a living) is that it takes all kinds of impressions, connections, interpretations, and opinions to really flesh out a text. Your opinion is no less valuable than anyone else's, regardless of what kind of "spoons" you have. ;)

    <3
     
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  4. LittleBird

    LittleBird Well-Known Member

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    I meant spoons in terms of energy. I spend all day every day engaged with academic texts and analyses. It's hard to continue that into my free time, as much as I might normally enjoy doing so. (I loved doing my English major. Believe me, I could analyze the $#!+ outta some Disney. :D)

    Regardless, you are absolutely right! There isn't a person on this forum that doesn't have something fascinating to say about their favorite movie/character/etc. I love seeing people jump in when the schedule reaches their fav (or least fav).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  5. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Oh... Oh I know. XD it's so bad. So very bad for my pin collection. XD

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Addicted to Alice Pins

    Addicted to Alice Pins My name is Ann, and I'm here to enable you!

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    Cough cough. Excuse me, Professor Wizard, sir. I don't want to distract from your background analysis, but let's make sure the kids at home know that the first Alice book was published in 1865; however, Reverend Dodgson (or, as I like to call him, The Rev) started telling the story to the Liddell sisters on July 4, 1862. :D
     
  7. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Oh yes, my apologies. Common lit major assumption is that whenever something is published, anything within 5 years before the publication date is safe to assume it is "in the air" as far as influence is concerned. But I should have been more specific. ;P

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  8. Addicted to Alice Pins

    Addicted to Alice Pins My name is Ann, and I'm here to enable you!

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    I ain't quibblin' with your theories. Just don't want our friends to lose at Really Arcane Trivia.
     
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  9. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    The carrot slipped my mind for some reason - nice catch! I agree that Alice's rationale was pretty perplexing. I mean, why did she even help herself to the White Rabbit's pastry stash in the first place, when she had JUST eaten an almost identical pastry that altered her size?? What did she expect to happen?? Her logic was super inconsistent throughout the film, which I suppose is just a pitfall of Disney emphasizing her role as an audience surrogate and attempting to add a morality tale of sorts. Obviously, Wonderland is supposed to be illogical and self-contradictory, but when you position Alice as the supposed voice of reason, she's held to much higher standards of consistency. Disney clearly wanted to give her some character development, starting out as a naive child who wants everything to be nonsense, and ultimately "learning her lesson," so to speak. But there's no clear trajectory from point A to point B. First she's singing wistfully about how absurd her ideal world would be, then 15 minutes in she's complaining about how irrational the caucus race is. She breaks down into tears and sings about how she should have "stopped to reason," then moments later she's totally on board with helping paint roses. She flip-flops back and forth between being a good sport/taking things in stride (even enjoying the absurdity at times), and adamantly resisting the insanity with frustration and impatience. I personally found her to be an endearing character, but she was definitely written very unevenly.
     
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  10. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    I fully expect y'all to make an effort for me when Hunchback rolls around! None of that bare minimum, "I'm just here for the medal" crap, you guys. ;)
     
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  11. Addicted to Alice Pins

    Addicted to Alice Pins My name is Ann, and I'm here to enable you!

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    ISN'T THAT LIFE, NUTMEG??????

    Or maybe it's just me. Like, literally. You've written a concise yet thorough description of me. Ha ha ha.
     
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  12. NutMeg

    NutMeg The Nefarious N.M.G.

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    Pft girl don't give me that cinema verite BS. Movies aren't supposed to be like life... movies are BETTER than life! xD

    But hey, I did say I find her endearing! <3 Also, I'd be lying if I said I didn't relate to her just a little bit. Especially at the beginning, when she's crawling through the rabbit hole and acknowledges out loud what a poor decision she's making, yet continues forward with zero f***s given. I was like:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Addicted to Alice Pins

    Addicted to Alice Pins My name is Ann, and I'm here to enable you!

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    This is how I relate to Alice. Although I don't *really* eat to escape my problems; I just eat, haha. (I always want to say "just ask Merly," but I am ever ladylike and refined in his presence. Ha!)[​IMG]

    PS: I haven't watched Hunchback since I saw it in the theater. If someone tags me as a reminder, I'll find a way to watch it during its featured week.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  14. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    I wonder if they meant this as a "be careful what you wish for" kind of thing? Though, honestly, the times where she had a negative reaction to what was going on around her seemed to pale to the amount of times that something bizarre happened and she acted like it was just an ordinary happening. I remember thinking a few times while watching, "Why aren't you reacting to this? A WHITE RABBIT JUST RAN BY AND SPOKE TO YOU AND SANG, that should be WEIRD to you!"


    Oh, also, Confession Time: Ug, I wasn't looking forward to Peter Pan week. Sorry Pan fans, but this is my least favorite Disney animated movie (well, Dumbo may top it actually). I've never been a huge fan of Peter's character in anything but Hook (though it's better here than the abomination of Pan in Once Upon A Time), and Tink is one of my least favorite Disney characters (though I will admit that what I've seen of the new incarnation with her and the rest of the Pixie Hollow gang makes me like her slightly more). Plus all the racism really sours me towards it.
     
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  15. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Pan is definitely one that didn't age well in the social graces department. But I think one aspect of the story is that we aren't really supposed to ~like~ Peter. It's much more about Wendy and mothers/mothering, at least as far as I'm concerned.

    Maybe this watch, choose something specific to may attention to throughout the movie, like facial expressions or music or something. Give yourself a quest to watch for. :3

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  16. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    I'll try to find a redeeming quality on this watch through. ;)
     
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  17. watzshakinbacon

    watzshakinbacon B for Belle or B for bacon?

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    HAY! Do I get an extra credit badge for the bonus (short films)? or is that a different kind of badge.. hehe
     
  18. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    You have it. Anyone who did the bonus has both Reluctant Dragon and Ichabod Crane icons under their name.
     
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  19. LittleBird

    LittleBird Well-Known Member

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    Those badges are so cute! I will try to earn a few before the year is out. :)
     
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  20. watzshakinbacon

    watzshakinbacon B for Belle or B for bacon?

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    TOOK A STUDY BREAK TO DO SOME PETER PAN HOMEWORK haha

    1. What is your overall impression of the film? Some possible talking points include: what you did or did not like about it; what about the film has stuck with you; what did you find different on this viewing; how would modern audiences respond to this (for the older films)… The list goes on. Hahah!
    I enjoyed this movie more than I expected. I know there's a lot that's politically incorrect, and lots of females getting jealous, etc. The first thing I noticed was there was a cel in the beginning of the credits.
    [​IMG]
    I didn't do too much research on it, but I guess Disney had tried to make PP earlier but their deal with the hospital wasn't good enough. I guess they were able to work it out, so it's nice that Disney was able to do something for the hospital.

    Anyway, overall, this movie brought back a lot of memories. The doo-do-dooooo flute melody and the "Follow the Leader" song are especially memorable. My mom was sitting with me while I was watching this, and she said how my younger brother, 2 childhood friends, and I would sing this while they would follow me around haha

    There are definitely many things that I'm not a fan of now (as an adult and in this current day/age), some of which I mentioned earlier
    • portraying females are moody and intensely jealous
    • indians/ aborigines being called savages and portrayed as unsophisticated
    • smoking and drinking in the film (I know the older films didn't regulate this)
    • kids basically being lured out of their home by some stranger who stalks them at their window lol

    2. Choose one specific character to analyze. You can explore how a character acts, what they say, how they dress, etc. to explain what they may represent or their function and meaning in the narrative. Try to avoid obvious "plot" stuff (ex: the Evil Queen is a villain, so her purpose is to be bad...), but explore unique and specific elements about the character (ex: the EQ is surrounded by images of peacocks, further suggesting her obsession with vanity). You may also use these elements to explain why you connected or disconnected from the character.
    How did adults end up in Neverland? How did Captain Hook end up there? Anyway, Hook's hand gets fed to the crocodile by Peter Pan, and that is obviously a traumatic experience for anyone. He embraces his new disability and prob changed his name to Hook because of it. Anyway, so he then becomes obsessed with exacting revenge on Pan. However, he does this at the cost of his crew. In one of the first scenes, the pirates are restless and say they should be looting other ships or slitting throats. Instead, they're chasing a boy around the island. Clearly, Hook has lost his sense of responsibility as a captain. In any case, he's still very much a pirate/ criminal. He has no problem taking hostages. He took Tiger Lily to Skull Rock. Next, he uses Tinker Bell (a jealous female) to betray Pan.

    4. Choose one song to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? What purpose does this song have in the film and does it succeed in that purpose?
    "You can fly!"
    The song is very light and happy. Peter instructs the kids to think of happy, wonderful things and they can fly! I think it's funny that Michael says "Jiminy" when he's flying (a little throwback to Pinocchio.. I guess he also flew?). The song starts with Peter singing, then the children joining in, and later when they're on their way to Neverland, a chorus starts singing to kind of narrate their progression. I guess the lyrics kind of match the feeling that when one is so happy, one can feel like they can fly. The song succeeds in making the transition from real world to fantasy world. It must be such a fun and happy time for the children, especially Wendy, since she has to grow up tomorrow.

    This is does a bit of foreshadowing in that Peter Pan seems to have no problems/ troubles. He can fly without even thinking, which shows that he has no worries! Maybe it's not until he got Capt Hook's hand eaten and the troubles start..

    5. Choose one specific symbol in the film to analyze. A symbol is typically something inanimate, an object, rather than a character. So don’t say “Brer Bear represents dumb people,” as that’s more of a character analysis than a symbol. Rather, think about specific objects (jewelry, clothing, houses, food, weapons, etc.) What does this symbol mean and how does that meaning impact the film?
    The clock is a great symbol to examine. It not only signals Captain Hook when the crocodile is coming, but it's literally ticking and tocking with the passage of time. Apparently, no one grows older in Neverland, but somehow time passes (there is day and night). However, with the clock approaching, it signals that death is nearby as well.

    Speaking of clocks, Peter Pan and the kids fly to Big Ben on their way out of London. They land on its huge face and end up at 7:15 (? or 8:15?) and the bells ring! WHY?? Doesn't it only ring on the hour? Maybe someone in London can explain that to me.. If it does only ring on the hour, then maybe the fact that they're going to neverland puts time all out of wack..

    10. What single pin do you think best represents this film for you? Why? Give us the pin number and post a picture!
    #126989 the new jumbo
    [​IMG]
    This pins shows Peter and the kids flying away from London. It encapsulates their journey to Neverland to defy the aging that come with time.
     
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  21. watzshakinbacon

    watzshakinbacon B for Belle or B for bacon?

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    Right you are!

    @MerlinEmrys
    [​IMG]
     
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  22. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    Big Ben has four small bells that ring on every quarter hour...
     
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  23. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Indeed. In fact, I think most big, old public clocks do, right? I seem to remember the courthouse in Savannah doing it...

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  24. Purplemandms

    Purplemandms Like the candy!

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    [​IMG]
     
  25. watzshakinbacon

    watzshakinbacon B for Belle or B for bacon?

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    Ahh thanks for that, I was like.. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?!
     

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