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Warning!!! They're Back...

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I think the majority of us feel this is just an overrun pin that ended up on the secondary market. I think it didn't get a hologram on the back because Disney already had their edition size. This was just a left over pin. I wonder why they quit using the hologram. I thought it was a wonderful idea. If you notice there are no marks or residue on the back of the pin to indicate that something was once adhered there. It is the only logical explanation. Over runs have made it into the secondary market for years but were only brought to light when the poor quality scrappers hit the market (IMO). If you are willing to pay a good price for an overrun pin so be it. Without the hologram I don't feel it has any value but if you just want it for your collection more power to you. As I have said many times I have counterfeit/scrapper pins in my collection because I could not afford the real one when the opportunity presented itself to get the lesser pin. I will never fault anyone for adding a pin to their collection the only way possible within their means. It does hurt the Pin Market but it is what it is. It is never going to change so those that only collect as a way of making money are going to stop collecting eventually. AS I said before JMHO.
 
So I messaged the seller

"Hello,I wonder if maybe you can get more of this pin for me? I like to trade pins with people and right now baseball season is big,so people would trade me lots of pins for this one.
Would it be possible to maybe get 10~15 of them for me? If so maybe could you do a small discount? like maybe $1000 for 15 of them?

Thank you so much!"

here is his response

"Hello,
8PCS on hand and a small discount for you.
Please know that Hologram missing

Thanks"
 
Hey, just a heads-up. The Stitch as Dalmatian and Stitch with Pinocchio are back on sale at eBay with no hologram and a China address. Just how many of these pins does this guy have, anyway?!?
 
Ughhh, everytime I see those pins listed I get super excited at the chance they may be real... then I see the missing hologram and the sellers location. Sucks. I love how the seller has 100% feedback with just one neutral. Guess people haven't caught on.
 
I have talked to a lot of people about missing holograms, and the general consensus usually runs something like this:

To make an official LE pin of any size, Disney usually makes 2-3 times the size of the LE number. Ergo, if the pin is to be LE 1000, they make 3000; LE 100, they make 300. Then Quality Control gets a hold of them and looks over the entire triple sized run of pins. The best ones are kept, the rest are scrapped. It would be real, REAL easy to just sort of accidentally misplace those scrappers in someone's purse, or bag, or anything. If you have any sort of pin book, you know that filling it with 200 pins is nothing. That person walks out of the factory with 200 scrapped LE 100 pins in his or her pocket to sell when they want. And it doesn't mean those scrappers are of terrible quality, most of them we wouldn't even be able to tell ourselves; it just means they weren't the BEST. Then, guys like our dear eBay friend sell them to unsuspecting traders later on.

This is the logic we (Me, my wife, and several old school pin traders from DLR) came up with that makes this seem the most likely scenario:

1. It is a well known fact that Disney produces more-than-necessary sized runs of pins for quality control purposes to ensure that the ones that are officially sold by Disney are the best pins possible; see http://disneypinforum.com/showthread.php?205-Scrappers-Vs.-Counterfiets-%28and-how-to-tell%29 . They then supposedly destroy those that fail inspection.

2. We know that these scrappers go somewhere, and most usually NOT into the trash bin where they belong.

3. Thanks to hologrammed DA and LE Euro/Paris pins, we can see how the QC process works. LE Euro pins are numbered, and will have something like 1326/2000 on the back as sort of a serial number. I personally have received a scrapper of one of these pins (and I was pissed as hell too). How did I know? The number was missing. It just said ____/2000. After showing it to others and thinking about it carefully, it became painfully obvious as to what had happened. When they make those LE Euro pins, they go through the same QC process, but the serials are added AFTER the perfect pins are selected. Why would you put what number the pin is in the series if there was still a chance it would not pass QC? So, when that run of 3000-4000 LE 2000 pins are made, they pick the best 2000, number them, and scrap the rest. Scrappers would never have received a serial number.

Similarly, why would they put a DA hologram on a pin that failed inspection? Putting holos on all 200-300 pins in an LE 100 run would only be a huge waste of money on Disney's part. The run is first inspected, and only those 100 that pass inspection would receive that hologram sticker on it, then hit the market. The scrapped pins would never have had them in the first place.

All that said, this guy has to be selling scrappers, outright. Not counterfeit or fakes; they look way, WAY too good for that, but most definitely scrappers. Our eBay friend from China most likely worked in the factory or got them from someone who did when and where these pins in question were made, pocketed the ones that were supposed to be destroyed, and has waited to sell them slowly as he needs money.

Sorry for the dissertation; I know I'm long winded. I just hate these guys that much.
 
Jabberwocky said:
That sounds incredibly wasteful and economically impractical. Far more likely that there's a 20% overrun for quality control purposes. There's no financial sustainability with a 200% overrun on every item made!
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't think there is any way they are making that many overruns. It just doesn't make sense. If they did do that many, I'd expect every pin to be perfect quality and we all know that isn't the case. I also don't believe they are checking every single pin and picking the best. They may be checking every 10th pin or something like that. There's just no way they are checking every one....if they are, they are really bad at it.
 
erudolf said:
The word "scrapper" has become so synonymous with poor quality but that isn't necessarily the case.
Click to expand...

Indeed, "Scrapper" has become the "Kleenex" of Disney pins.

There are many sources of "Scrappers"
1. Overrun - Disney orders 10k of a pin and the factory runs the machines for 50k. They box up 10k with the mold and send them to Disney. They sell the other 40k on the black market. These are frequently impossible to tell from the originals unless you buy directly from Disney.

2. Re-Run - Disney orders 10k of a pin and the factory runs 10k. They box 10k and send them to Disney and say they destroyed the mold. They then put the mold back in the machine later and rerun it to sell on the black market. These are easier to tell as they may not get the colors the same as the first run or minor mistakes are made on backs or nubs.

3. Mold Re-manufacture - A new mold is made from an existing pin and the factory runs are sold on the black market. These are easiest to tell as there are frequent errors, waffle not right, missing nubs, wrong colors, errors on front and back.

4. Scrap - The original source. During Q/C pins are kicked out for defects during a legitimate manufacture run. These are supposed to be ground and re-melted as scrap (where the term comes from). They frequently are not destroyed but are sold on the black market. These are also easier to spot as they already have defects such as edges, missing paint, paint dimples/bubbles or misaligned back waffles or printing.

5. False Scrap - These are good pins that are falsely purposely kicked out during Q/C by unscrupulous Q/C. They are otherwise good quality pins and are as good as "authentic" pins straight from Disney. This occurs both at the factory and the employee level.

6. Theft - This occurs more often at the employee level than the factory level. Factory workers steal pins off the line prior to the count and final packaging. Again, since many of these are stolen post Q/C, they are hard to tell from authentic pins because they would have been delivered to Disney if they weren't pocketed first. Some, are stolen pre-Q/C so may have defects or may not. Some theft is of the scrappers(#5) prior to destruction, again yielding lower quality black market pins.

7. Shipment Theft - This one I think occurs less frequently though I suspect it happens more than Disney admits. The shipment is stolen either during transit, during customs, or possibly at Disney itself. Again, nearly impossible to tell from real Disney pins because they would have been in Disney stores except for being stolen first.

There may be others, these are just the ones I know about.
 
I know everyone has there own opinon but.... Why go round and round over a name.... I call it NOT THE REAL pin. So if its fake...scrapp or any other way you want to call....it still is Not The Real Pin. only the pins that disney wanted out are The Real pin. I own a card shop and all hobbys now have Not Real. So there is no reason to try and talk about a name. We all want The real pin from disney.. And that is that


ps.... for the na sayers.... Even over run....is Not The Real pin...... cuz disney didnt mean for it to b out.... seems real clean and clear to me... and im just the new guy...lol
 
Ughhh, now Stitch with Dodger, Stitch with Lady and Tramp, and a few other DA pins are listed. How many of these pins does this guy have?!?!?!
 
mybabykelly said:
Ughhh, now Stitch with Dodger, Stitch with Lady and Tramp, and a few other DA pins are listed. How many of these pins does this guy have?!?!?!
Click to expand...

Lol it depends, how big were his pockets while he was in the factory? All seriousness, this drives me NUTS!!!
 
I will say that I bought a DA stitch with nana pin from a seller on the "bay" and it had the hologram, looked really good, and I believe is real
 
And there is another seller that continues to sell the Stitch Costumed Series Dalmatian pin after I told them it was a fake. The picture itself shows all of the scrapper traits. I also told them I was going to report them and they switched to their other ID. Unibear, I wonder if you noticed, because we discussed that pin and seller a few months ago. Anyhow, they continue selling this LE 100 pin, which is not an overrun, but a definite scrapper, since I have seen both side by side. Sadly, people keep buying it.

On a happier note, congratulations to thekaratekid for getting a good DA Stitch with Nana pin. That is a terrific pin!
 
mybabykelly said:
Ughhh, everytime I see those pins listed I get super excited at the chance they may be real... then I see the missing hologram and the sellers location. Sucks. I love how the seller has 100% feedback with just one neutral. Guess people haven't caught on.
Click to expand...

Odds are the parties buying these Ebay pins are uneducated newbies, who have not found our site yet.
 
Geoff said:
I have talked to a lot of people about missing holograms, and the general consensus usually runs something like this:

To make an official LE pin of any size, Disney usually makes 2-3 times the size of the LE number. Ergo, if the pin is to be LE 1000, they make 3000; LE 100, they make 300. Then Quality Control gets a hold of them and looks over the entire triple sized run of pins. The best ones are kept, the rest are scrapped. It would be real, REAL easy to just sort of accidentally misplace those scrappers in someone's purse, or bag, or anything. If you have any sort of pin book, you know that filling it with 200 pins is nothing. That person walks out of the factory with 200 scrapped LE 100 pins in his or her pocket to sell when they want. And it doesn't mean those scrappers are of terrible quality, most of them we wouldn't even be able to tell ourselves; it just means they weren't the BEST. Then, guys like our dear eBay friend sell them to unsuspecting traders later on.

This is the logic we (Me, my wife, and several old school pin traders from DLR) came up with that makes this seem the most likely scenario:

1. It is a well known fact that Disney produces more-than-necessary sized runs of pins for quality control purposes to ensure that the ones that are officially sold by Disney are the best pins possible; see http://disneypinforum.com/showthread.php?205-Scrappers-Vs.-Counterfiets-(and-how-to-tell) . They then supposedly destroy those that fail inspection.

2. We know that these scrappers go somewhere, and most usually NOT into the trash bin where they belong.

3. Thanks to hologrammed DA and LE Euro/Paris pins, we can see how the QC process works. LE Euro pins are numbered, and will have something like 1326/2000 on the back as sort of a serial number. I personally have received a scrapper of one of these pins (and I was pissed as hell too). How did I know? The number was missing. It just said ____/2000. After showing it to others and thinking about it carefully, it became painfully obvious as to what had happened. When they make those LE Euro pins, they go through the same QC process, but the serials are added AFTER the perfect pins are selected. Why would you put what number the pin is in the series if there was still a chance it would not pass QC? So, when that run of 3000-4000 LE 2000 pins are made, they pick the best 2000, number them, and scrap the rest. Scrappers would never have received a serial number.

Similarly, why would they put a DA hologram on a pin that failed inspection? Putting holos on all 200-300 pins in an LE 100 run would only be a huge waste of money on Disney's part. The run is first inspected, and only those 100 that pass inspection would receive that hologram sticker on it, then hit the market. The scrapped pins would never have had them in the first place.

All that said, this guy has to be selling scrappers, outright. Not counterfeit or fakes; they look way, WAY too good for that, but most definitely scrappers. Our eBay friend from China most likely worked in the factory or got them from someone who did when and where these pins in question were made, pocketed the ones that were supposed to be destroyed, and has waited to sell them slowly as he needs money.

Sorry for the dissertation; I know I'm long winded. I just hate these guys that much.
Click to expand...

i know this is old, but someone bumped it to the top. I really agree with Geoff's statement, it seems to be the only logical explanation regarding scrappers
 
Geoff said:
I have talked to a lot of people about missing holograms, and the general consensus usually runs something like this:

To make an official LE pin of any size, Disney usually makes 2-3 times the size of the LE number. Ergo, if the pin is to be LE 1000, they make 3000; LE 100, they make 300. Then Quality Control gets a hold of them and looks over the entire triple sized run of pins. The best ones are kept, the rest are scrapped. It would be real, REAL easy to just sort of accidentally misplace those scrappers in someone's purse, or bag, or anything. If you have any sort of pin book, you know that filling it with 200 pins is nothing. That person walks out of the factory with 200 scrapped LE 100 pins in his or her pocket to sell when they want. And it doesn't mean those scrappers are of terrible quality, most of them we wouldn't even be able to tell ourselves; it just means they weren't the BEST. Then, guys like our dear eBay friend sell them to unsuspecting traders later on.

This is the logic we (Me, my wife, and several old school pin traders from DLR) came up with that makes this seem the most likely scenario:

1. It is a well known fact that Disney produces more-than-necessary sized runs of pins for quality control purposes to ensure that the ones that are officially sold by Disney are the best pins possible; see http://disneypinforum.com/showthread.php?205-Scrappers-Vs.-Counterfiets-(and-how-to-tell) . They then supposedly destroy those that fail inspection.

2. We know that these scrappers go somewhere, and most usually NOT into the trash bin where they belong.

3. Thanks to hologrammed DA and LE Euro/Paris pins, we can see how the QC process works. LE Euro pins are numbered, and will have something like 1326/2000 on the back as sort of a serial number. I personally have received a scrapper of one of these pins (and I was pissed as hell too). How did I know? The number was missing. It just said ____/2000. After showing it to others and thinking about it carefully, it became painfully obvious as to what had happened. When they make those LE Euro pins, they go through the same QC process, but the serials are added AFTER the perfect pins are selected. Why would you put what number the pin is in the series if there was still a chance it would not pass QC? So, when that run of 3000-4000 LE 2000 pins are made, they pick the best 2000, number them, and scrap the rest. Scrappers would never have received a serial number.

Similarly, why would they put a DA hologram on a pin that failed inspection? Putting holos on all 200-300 pins in an LE 100 run would only be a huge waste of money on Disney's part. The run is first inspected, and only those 100 that pass inspection would receive that hologram sticker on it, then hit the market. The scrapped pins would never have had them in the first place.

All that said, this guy has to be selling scrappers, outright. Not counterfeit or fakes; they look way, WAY too good for that, but most definitely scrappers. Our eBay friend from China most likely worked in the factory or got them from someone who did when and where these pins in question were made, pocketed the ones that were supposed to be destroyed, and has waited to sell them slowly as he needs money.

Sorry for the dissertation; I know I'm long winded. I just hate these guys that much.
Click to expand...

This is the best explanation I have read of why ANY ANY ANY pin can be a scrapper, that looks identical to a real, Authentic pin. Good job Geoff!
 
^-^ Glad I could help. Talked to a couple pin artists a while back. They said that for any pin they make about 20% more than necessary. So while my original numbers were off, the process holds true.
 
Disney--and other companies who rightfully complain about fakes/counterfeits/etc--were foolish in the first place to outsource production of such items (pins, shirts, cds, etc) to China. The manufacturing plants cannot be monitored as well as if they were here, and the government has no interest in enforcing copyright and trademark protections. Had the plants been in the US, all these issues would be far less likely to arise. This does not excuse the scammers in any way, but what is to be expected when a company hires a manufacturing plant in a country that basically encourages these illegal actions? Disney et al. knew what they were getting into. And they obviously don't mind all that much because that haven't relocated back to the US--their bottom line allows this to continue.

I know, sounds like I'm blaming Disney. I'm not. But they've decided it makes good business sense to allow it. So sad for fans.
 
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