PinPics - New Format / Big Site Changes!

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

The issue is that, from my understanding, US copyright law treats compilations of data and the underlying data as different entities and thus treated differently. If someone put up a website identical in code, layout and data to PinPics that would be a copyright violation. But facts are not themselves copyrightable. Anyone can independently, build their own database of Images (their own or submitted), with Release Origins, Release Date, Price, Edition Sizes, UPCs, number of posts, text of backstamps, and other details one can collect about a pin, and they can use resources such as other websites to research this type of factual information. There have been cases that have worked their way through the courts and why law websites describe database copyright violations as a hard thing to prove. It's really only examples that are literal copies, including typos and duplicated erroneous information that have been successful. For example this description: Lists, Directories, and Databases Under Copyright Law The other pin sites are clearly different in the way they organize and present the factual data, and are usually very clear about not copying Descriptions or Images from other sites, where it is theoretical easier to prove the necessary creativity.

Also, I found this regarding the use of proprietary numbering systems. The examples I normally see are about Parts Lists, but PinPics numbering system would seem to qualify. The first is in regards to trademark protection, and I don't think PinPics has any trademarks, but if they did. Part Numbers : Trademark, trade secret and Intellectual Property Rights in OEM Part numbers And also this case: Toro Company v. R & R PRODUCTS CO., 600 F. Supp. 400 (D. Minn. 1984) where the Company, Toro, agrees that the other company has a right to publish a table with their number in one column, and Toro's number in another, for cross-referencing purposes. Their objection was the numbering system was identical except for sticking a character in front of it. AFAIK, no pin database says pin 112 on their site is the same as pin 112 on Pinpics, and all the way through with all the numbers. But in any case the court denied Toro's claims of copyright and upheld the other companies use of duplicating the numbers.

Also, also, when I did a bit of research in the past there are similar cases concerning Deep Linking, one website linking to another's pages, and that is also generally seen by the courts as permissible, and there have been cases such as Ticketmaster suing others. It is encouraged by some law sites to gain permission, and don't do it, if a TOS prohibits it. But the reasoning seems a case of etiquette and not legality. Connecting to Other Websites and an example of how it's interpreted by a group who might need to know what is permissible ALA | Hypertext Linking and Copyright Issues.

This is why there is pushback, because other people's interpretations of existing copyright and trademark laws and court rulings do not align with PinPics statements. It may feel wrong to some people, but it doesn't mean something is protected content. It may absolutely lead to increased server costs, via increased traffic and that is one of the issues described as a reason why entities try and fight it. That's why those are the type of decisions one must consider when choosing to operate a website such PinPics. Or be a contributor. And all of this is a factor for users to decide how much effort they want to expend in PinPics' direction. I don't Zoom with my family, I don't have any interest in participating in Zoom chats in order to gain some sort of status of fairness to judge the quality of a product I use. If character and intent of business owners was the determining factor of a business success or failure, there would probably be a lot more businesses that didn't fail. But that's not how the world works. People judge products all the time if they meet their needs.

Thank you for keeping this discussion fact and information based Hope.

What you state makes sense to me.

 

[brattyjedi]

As for picking out TOS from 2002 . . . are you kidding?????!!!!!

This is the first thing I’ve seen in this thread that is a personal attack. Everything else is a discussion of policies and preferences on those policies. My apologies for trying to provide relevant information on the terms under which people shared their “content” to help provide understanding for why people feel betrayed when those terms are changed to something very different without their prior consent or options to remove their previously provided “content.”

 

[Jabberwocky]

All of you that have submitted content over the years we thank you.

You are not welcome to use any of my content.

You have no right to watermark my images that YOU DO NOT OWN.

Take all of my writing and my images off the site.

As I have asked over and over and over again.

(For those reading - they won't do it because I contributed way too much that they're afraid to lose and clearly are unable and unwilling to replace with their own original content. But longtime contributors knew it was a bad sign for the site when our names were removed from listings we had contributed.)

The irony is - if they'd actually approached the community who crowd-sourced the site and just ASKED for our permission to use our content, they might have gotten it from many. But the egregious "we own this even though you didn't give it to us and we won't let it go even if you ask us to" is what develops animosity. Taking first and not asking later doesn't generally earn a positive reaction.

 

[rik1138]

Since it was stated that Pin Trading Database is OK with this, that means that hypothetically - someone could go and copy all the pins in PTDB or P&P and add them to PP and there would be no issue whatsoever? I bet there would be an issue.

Has anyone asked? I believe their Terms do state you need to ask permission, you can't just take it on your own... They just originally said the data would be usable by anyone. And those that have asked, have been allowed to from what I understand...
Maybe they'd only allow images to be re-used if you promise not to watermark them or something... But you never know until you ask.
I would think the tricky part for any existing pin database would be merging the data in a way that didn't create duplicates...

About the Terms of Service from 2002 - That's 21 years ago! Times have changed and the online world has become unrecognizable from what it was back in the dark ages of 2002. People have changed, online security has changed and the amount of cyber crime has escalated beyond the charts back then. No comparison. Besides, that was multiple owners ago. I'm also getting the feeling here that a lot of the previous owner's problems and faults are being lumped in on the new owners. Any argument using ToS from 2002 is lost already. That was decades ago and many owners ago. The internet was different and the people were different.

As for picking out TOS from 2002 . . . are you kidding?????!!!!! That is 21 years ago, everybody. Those were written by the original owners of PinPics. We are now living in 2023. The site has been sold multiple times. If you're complaining and harboring this anger and negativity about something from 20 years ago, then there's really no help. You are angry at those original owners and their decision to sell out and stop maintaining the site in their way. The minute that PinPics was sold, the rules changed. The new owner called the shots. That owner has since sold up. The site changes again. So, you're angry that one of those owners sold out.

First of all, that was the OLDEST terms of service I could find. As of 2013, they were still the same, so it's only 10 years ago.
The anger is not about the owners selling the site, it's about the new owners suddenly requiring subscriptions to access the data in some way (they backtracked on it at some point I think, but that upset a lot of people). And I'm not sure about the legality of it all, but I'm not sure the original owners of PP technically sold the user submitted data to the new owners, it wasn't theirs to sell, and if anyone wanted out of the arrangement when the data changed hands, they should have been able to opt to do that...

A LOT of people chose not to agree with the new terms of service, and asked PP to take down all of their information, which PP ignored (possibly illegally).
It doesn't matter if it was 5 years or 20 years ago, the fact is there is a bunch of data created back under the old terms of service they technically have no right to display on their website at all...
There's a member here right now telling them to remove their copyrighted images, I guess we'll have to wait and see if PP honors that request...
The anger people are harboring isn't about the terms of service, it's about their request for THEIR COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL to be removed from the site being ignored, mostly due to them not wanting their information to sold for profit without their permission.
The new owners can make whatever terms they want, but they can't just claim they own the information previously submitted to the site, and the submitters should be able to have their information removed.
The goal of the original PP was to create a PUBLIC database of Disney pins. That was basically taken away, with no warning, buy the first buyers of the site.

My point in all of this was to demonstrate WHY so many people have issues with PP. A lot of it goes back to those days that the entire pin community felt screwed over by the new owners who only wanted to buy an existing database of users and then cash in on them by making them pay to continue to use the service. When the change in the terms of service was only months old, PP still ignored the requests of the copyright holders. What would you have said then?
Some people have issues with the site as it is now, but from what I can see that's just the functionality of the site itself, nothing to do with the database. But the current owners have stated that they were surprised about the backlash they received almost the instant they took over ownership. That actually surprised me as most people know at least some of the history of PinPics through it's past owners... But the current owners are HERE (on this forum), actively, and from what I can tell from their posts seem like genuinely nice people and want the website to work and be the main place for pin collectors again. That's already better than any of the past owners from what I gather (other than the founders) as most of them seemed to just be looking for a cash cow (I'm not sure how many times it changed hands...) And I totally get wanting to get the site making some money, if only to at least cover the cost of running it... I would never have an issue with some ads here and there, or even a subscription option that gave you something else (but keeping the main database free). I think overall, they are on the right track, there's just a lot of things to do to make it perfect(er)... Hopefully it will get there, but I think there will always be people that just feel burned by "PinPics", regardless of the owners, and that's a wound that may never heal for some of them...

And yes, if you submit information to a database that clearly says 'anyone can copy this data for any reason' then you should expect your data to be copied for any reason... If you don't agree, you don't post anything there. Now the terms of service state anything posted is ours and no one else can have it (from us) without permission. If you don't like those terms, don't post anything there. The fundamental 'don't use it if you don't agree' still applies. But when the terms change, existing users should be allowed to leave, and take their information with them. (unless the terms say Once you submit it, we have the right to keep it and use it forever, which the terms under the original owners did NOT say, and I don't think it even says now...)

 

[rik1138]

You are not welcome to use any of my content.
You have no right to watermark my images that YOU DO NOT OWN.
Take all of my writing and my images off the site.
As I have asked over and over and over again.
(For those reading - they won't do it because I contributed way too much that they're afraid to lose and clearly are unable and unwilling to replace with their own original content. But longtime contributors knew it was a bad sign for the site when our names were removed from listings we had contributed.)

I wouldn't be surprised if the first group that bought the site removed the information about who originally posted everything (as you said, it did suddenly disappear from the site, and as I mentioned previously, seeing your name on a pin entry seemingly forever was one of the main reason people rushed to put new pins on the site in the first place. It was like a badge of honor. )

But I do wonder if that information is even part of the database at all anymore...

 

[Randakinskywalker]

I was going to respond to this piece by piece, post by post, but I've been observing this thread through the snatches of free time I've gotten at work, and frankly, it just feels like it's a waste of breath. You're not willing to consider the community's input on this.

There are reasons I posted it publicly, instead of privately, which I guess makes me a bad person and an embarrassment to this forum, but oh well, I suppose? Wouldn't be the first time. I posted it publicly because there are other members of the pin community here that are smarter than me, that have been here longer than me, and can provide other viewpoints. I believed and still believe this should be an open discussion because at the end of the day, the website was built on content that you majority did not create and was intended to be public domain and was provided by the community. Legally, you may be in the right to do whatever you like with it (which is debatable in itself given the history of the site), but that doesn't make it morally correct.

Like I said, I'm not going to reply to every breakdown here because it's clear you're convinced you're not in the wrong here but to touch on a few things:

Trying to poke at my credibility just because I haven't chosen to add listings to your website doesn't mean I don't know the effort that goes into listings. I've added hundreds (at minimum of a thousand) pins to several other databases with my own content and time. I've spent countless hours correcting listings and data. I also don't particularly care who uses my contributions, so long as they do not watermark my own images, I'm credited, it's not used to sell pin listings, and people can freely take it from whatever site they find it on. Does that make me credible enough now or are my opinions not good enough because I haven't contributed to your specific site? You also mention that I apparently take, take, take-- but standing by the decision to take twelve years of content is apparently morally okay as well just because it's technically legal and you weren't the ones that did it.

The terms from 2002 actually aren't irrelevant, because it still stands that that was the pretense that twelve years of information was added under. It was added under the pretense that anyone, no matter whether they were a PinPics user or not, was welcome to utilize the content wherever they liked for non-commercial purposes. It was not about it staying free to view, it was that anyone could utilize the content however they wished. How much time has passed and how it's 2023 is the irrelevant part. And yes, legally (again, this could be disputed), through a shady altering of the terms by previous owners, you do have ownership of that content. But that doesn't make it morally correct to defend a decision by, in your own words, 'horrible owners' and you can't expect people to stand by it or you when you defend it.

What this boils down to is ultimately not the content. You're hyperfocusing on that and on the scraping but at the end of the day the pin listings are not the issue people have here. The issue people have is the choice that is actively being made to be okay with an underhanded tactic made by previous owners to punish their userbase for using the content exactly the way it was intended-- freely, and wherever they liked. It almost immediately skews you into a bad view and it should be obvious why. You're okay with keeping the exclusivity clause that was written into the terms after twelve years of work were donated for public domain use because it benefits you (or on the benefit of the doubt side, you haven't thought that deeply about it) to have content that you didn't have to create but would be painstaking and almost impossible to recreate by hand. And maybe you just didn't do enough research and got tricked by the previous owners into thinking they had the rights to all the content but unfortunately that would have to be a mistake you deal with in some way and you're not. It's almost like you don't believe in your own site enough. Because at the end of the end of the day, if pin content were shared freely, the only thing people would have to do is pick their favourite interface for the database they choose to use. And there would be people using every site regardless because everyone has different ideas of what features they like and what's the priority to them.

There's no proprietary content here to be stolen in those first twelve years, because of how the terms were written. If you'd like to keep the eleven years of content added to the site after the terms were altered, that's your preogative and I suppose your legality. But morally, the initial twelve years of listings should be returned to public domain because the members that worked hard on it were lied to and not asked for permission to alter the terms of use and it shouldn't matter if they're not still here to defend their work. It shouldn't matter that I'm not one of those people, because it's morally wrong-- Jabberwocky is literally sitting here telling you they're not okay with it and it doesn't matter to you, but you also apparently need to have contributed to have a say? Which is it? We've ignored this for long enough. The site should've sunk the moment that sort of dealing happened in 2013, but people were desperate for a database and willing to give it a second chance when the new owners came in, and the worst offense by the previous owners is being doubled down on. For our own good, apparently.

I'd also like to point out that Pin and Pop does have a completely separate clause regarding user submitted content, and that the clause being used to prove that they're trying to steal our content is in regards to things like their logo, website design, button and icon designs, etc. Stuff the site needs to function but that they do own. You're also cherry picking and ignoring the other examples that have been pointed out of databases with user contributed content that don't have this sort of clause. You don't need this clause, but you seem to want it.

I'm also with hopemax that consumers do not need to be getting personal with the owners to have an opinion on a brand or company. Actions and words and perception matters. And the fact of the matter is that if you'd like people to eventually pay for premium services to help support the site's functioning fees, you need to have a product that stands on its own without getting intimate with people and doesn't have ethical questions regarding its content. Or people will just find something else to support.

I'm done with this conversation because it's just going in circles. Multiple people have gone to lengths to show you why it's shady to keep claiming rights to public domain content that was stolen from the community but you seem unwilling to do anything about it. You want to separate yourself from the previous owners but you keep hammering in the stakes of, without a doubt, their worst policy change. Y'all can say and whisper whatever you want about me and how embarrassing it is for me to misbehave like this, feel free.

 

[pretty_Omi]

Just going to be yet another unpopular person, but the animosity displayed on this forum over the years, and the constant bickering over databases especially has greatly affected my desire to even be apart of this forum, or the hobby entirely... I barely peek in here to keep up on new releases anymore over anything.
The old Pinpics site was so broken it was barely usable, and they have greatly fixed that. The new site takes a bit of a learning curve, but it's like everyone has forgotten just how unusable it became after Pinopolis took over...
There's been such a bias against Pinpics ever since the original owners were forced to sell it. Sometimes I'm shocked that new owners even bother trying to keep working on the site. Before the big hack job here, remember when someone decided to try to ban us from even speaking about Pinpics on this forum? Cuz I sure haven't forgotten, and it also drove several of the other regulars away too.

There's constructive criticism, and then there's just grudges over things other people did a long time ago that folks seem keen to keep holding any new parties responsible for. I was excited to see the twins get involved since hopefully they'd be a voice more people here would be able to trust, but it seems like people would rather bicker and nitpick over little things and hold onto all that old anger.
I'm not going to bother arguing with anyone, I just felt compelled to say something, and how it all makes me feel about even being part of this forum. I'm sure no one will miss me when I'm gone entirely, which is likely to happen sooner than later.

 

[MollyAnne]

I just spoke with the creator of PinPics. They love what we are doing with the site and support us wholeheartedly. As well as supporting our terms. There one request when they sold the site was that the site as it stood would be free. It is free in its Classic form plus a lot of improvements that we have included.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MollyAnne]

She is even going to write up the history of PinPics that we are going to add to the site in our blog/article area! We are so excited for this……we appreciate her support!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jabberwocky]

And again, completely ignoring what I requested. Thus proving the point that they know what they are doing is wrong and are unwilling to do the right thing because they are unable to compensate for the material they would lose.

They can play "look, squirrel!" all they want to distract. But it's still wrong to utilize the labor and creations of others WITHOUT PERMISSION who have begged and pleaded repeatedly to REMOVE THE CONTENT.

If your site is as quality as you say it is, as noted, it will stand on its own. If you need MY content for your site to be successful, then that's your problem to be fixed with your own content creation. Rewrite descriptions in your own words. Use your own photos. Watermark your own content fair and square.

The moment this crew bought the site and (assuming their actual ignorance on its entire history) it was brought to their attention, honorable people would have simply said "We did not realize this was the situation. We will honor your wishes, although we wish you would reconsider." Never once did that happen. They just want to play victim and say they're being attacked by negativity. Guess what, they earned it from their own dishonorable behavior instead of stepping up from the start when the problem was brought to their (uninformed?) attention and they could have earned a positive response for doing the right thing. As I've said before, if they'd simply ASKED PERMISSION FROM THE START, I'm sure plenty would have said okay, you can use my content if you take off the watermarks and return attribution for that content. But no, they chose to ignore the problem and claim they're being attacked instead of solving it and thus made it a bigger louder problem as a result. I'm honestly mindblown at how tonedeaf this whole situation has been handled. This new ownership could have mended fences instead of breaking them down completely.

 

[rik1138]

I just spoke with the creator of PinPics. They love what we are doing with the site and support us wholeheartedly. As well as supporting our terms. There one request when they sold the site was that the site as it stood would be free. It is free in its Classic form plus a lot of improvements that we have included.

She is even going to write up the history of PinPics that we are going to add to the site in our blog/article area! We are so excited for this……we appreciate her support!

I think I'm starting to lean towards Jabberwocky on this one...
The original creators of PinPics have NOTHING to do with this. We all LOVED them, and everything they did (I think). It was the first group that bought it from them that started the problem.

But if this your first (and only?) response to everything that has been said so far.. 'I talked to the creators, they love us! We're going to blog about it!'
That's just COMPLETELY avoiding and ignoring the issue at hand.
How about a specific, and detailed response to Jabberwocky about why you are refusing to remove their copyrighted content?
I think that should be your next, and ONLY, response in this thread. That will tell us who you truly are...

When you asked for the original creators 'wholehearted support', did you show them the complaints made here? That people's public, copyrighted information was basically hijacked and requests for the removal of that copyrighted information are being completely ignored? They 'wholeheartedly support' those actions?
Hmm, maybe they knew the first buyers were going to lock it all behind a paywall and were all for it... Possibly shedding new light on the original creators as well, and their true intentions...
Interesting that she apparently said 'our one request was that the site remain free' when the exact opposite happened the instant they sold it... Maybe there was always a free aspect of it, but the first buyers starting putting everything except 'browsing the pins' behind a paywall...

 

[MollyAnne]

This is not my first response. I have responded several times. Just anything positive that is said some of you want to just pull it all apart and tear it down. For those of you that have been positive and supportive thank you. Since we acquired the site 10s of thousands of pictures have been replaced, 10s of thousands of descriptions written or rewritten on older submissions, 10s of thousands of titles fixed and so on. In talking to the original owners the same terms have been in place….that once you have submitted an image it is PinPics to use at its discretion. And if it is your original picture it is also yours to use at your discretion. Jabberwocky I do not know what happened between you and the owners before us. I am not going to be able to mend the wounds between some of you and the owners before us…….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MollyAnne]

I think I'm starting to lean towards Jabberwocky on this one...
The original creators of PinPics have NOTHING to do with this. We all LOVED them, and everything they did (I think). It was the first group that bought it from them that started the problem.

But if this your first (and only?) response to everything that has been said so far.. 'I talked to the creators, they love us! We're going to blog about it!'
That's just COMPLETELY avoiding and ignoring the issue at hand.
How about a specific, and detailed response to Jabberwocky about why you are refusing to remove their copyrighted content?
I think that should be your next, and ONLY, response in this thread. That will tell us who you truly are...

When you asked for the original creators 'wholehearted support', did you show them the complaints made here? That people's public, copyrighted information was basically hijacked and requests for the removal of that copyrighted information are being completely ignored? They 'wholeheartedly support' those actions?
Hmm, maybe they knew the first buyers were going to lock it all behind a paywall and were all for it... Possibly shedding new light on the original creators as well, and their true intentions...
Interesting that she apparently said 'our one request was that the site remain free' when the exact opposite happened the instant they sold it... Maybe there was always a free aspect of it, but the first buyers starting putting everything except 'browsing the pins' behind a paywall...

The site is Free as it stand in this Classic stage and that information will always be free. Really Classic+ with the enhancements we have made. The original owners of PinPics have a lot to do with this because when they sold it a lot of people got upset and rightfully so. I am not ignoring his request. The terms then and the terms now are the same in when you submit your information….that once submitted it is ours to use. That is the same on all of these sites. We are not making money quite the contrary we have invested a lot to bring this site back from the brink. The site is FREE to use and how it stands the Classic version it will always be Free. And we are adding an App in this Classic version. Well all I can respond to is what we are doing and have done….and it is not behind a paywall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rik1138]

This is not my first response. I have responded several times. Just anything positive that is said some of you want to just pull it all apart and tear it down. For those of you that have been positive and supportive thank you. Since we acquired the site 10s of thousands of pictures have been replaced, 10s of thousands of descriptions written or rewritten on older submissions, 10s of thousands of titles fixed and so on. In talking to the original owners the same terms have been in place….that once you have submitted an image it is PinPics to use at its discretion. And if it is your original picture it is also yours to use at your discretion. Jabberwocky I do not know what happened between you and the owners before us. I am not going to be able to mend the wounds between some of you and the owners before us…….

I just meant specifically about Jabberwocky's issue... (I think they just didn't like the idea of their content being used for profit, and wanted it removed, as did many people. At the time we all thought (myself included) we had the right to ask for the content to be removed if we no longer agreed with the site or it's direction).

But you know, I think I owe you an apology. I was under the impressions that submitters could request their information to be removed, but apparently even the old 2002 Terms and conditions stated the following:

Any content added to this site becomes the property of Pin Pics and can be used by Pin Pics without restriction. This includes any uploaded pin images.

That doesn't mean they own exclusive copyrights or anything, but when you upload something to their site, you are essentially giving it to them, permanently (if it was your copyrighted material in the first place). That was the terms you agreed to, even in 2002, when you joined the site... So it seems they do have the right to keep it and use it...

My apologies for overlooking that one...

 

[rik1138]

The site is Free as it stand in this Classic stage and that information will always be free. Really Classic+ with the enhancements we have made. The original owners of PinPics have a lot to do with this because when they sold it a lot of people got upset and rightfully so. I am not ignoring his request. The terms then and the terms now are the same in when you submit your information….that once submitted it is ours to use. That is the same on all of these sites. We are not making money quite the contrary we have invested a lot to bring this site back from the brink. The site is FREE to use and how it stands the Classic version it will always be Free. And we are adding an App in this Classic version. Well all I can respond to is what we are doing and have done….and it is not behind a paywall.

That was about the first buyers of the site. They started charging people to see images larger than 150x150 of any pin, they watermarked all the images, and I think they said even the trade system was going to be subscription only. That's when people started hating PinPics. I don't know how much they started actually charging for (I know at one point I could no longer see larger pin images without paying, but I don't know what else), but they either back tracked, or whoever bought the site next took that away...

Out of curiosity, how many people have owned the site now since it was first sold?

 

[linkata4]

That was about the first buyers of the site. They started charging people to see images larger than 150x150 of any pin, they watermarked all the images, and I think they said even the trade system was going to be subscription only. That's when people started hating PinPics. I don't know how much they started actually charging for (I know at one point I could no longer see larger pin images without paying, but I don't know what else), but they either back tracked, or whoever bought the site next took that away...

Out of curiosity, how many people have owned the site now since it was first sold?

Only once. I think there's more than meets the eye. The question is who can you trust?

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

 

[rik1138]

Only once

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

So, creators sold it to, who?, 'pinopolis' or something? And then current owners bought it from them?
I didn't realize the first buyers held on it to for so long, I thought they had gotten out quick... Maybe it was just that they stopped really doing anything with it...

 

[linkata4]

So, creators sold it to, who?, 'pinopolis' or something? And then current owners bought it from them?
I didn't realize the first buyers held on it to for so long, I thought they had gotten out quick... Maybe it was just that they stopped really doing anything with it...

Dm sent to you.

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

 

[hopemax]

The thing about blaming the situation on meany DPFers, and the corresponding dogpile, is that it shifts responsibility and discussion off the reasons why people don't use PinPics like they did before, reasons which are the responsibilities of the owners and the programmer. So this also sort of functions as the starting point of a report card list of what the priorities probably should be for a site redesign. These are the type of things I am judging PinPics on, and some are more important than others. I said pages ago, when the sale happened, that every single listing on the site needs to be touched and updated, and there certainly has been work on that, but it's probably not the most important thing to most other people.

1. Site uptime - this has definitely improved.

2. Finding your pin amongst the 100,000 listings - I still hear from people, casually, about the difficulty of this. See requests from others to find pins they can't find in the database.
a. Image quality - already discussed as why this has been problematic
b. Search
i. Titles
ii. Descriptions
iii. Filters
c. Speed at which updates can be made to your Owns, Wants and Trades
d. Speed at which new pins are added

3. Trade Assist
a. Compare Feature - discussed to death
b. Communication - sorry, version 2 is still clunky and not as convenient as the original email system. I understand all the reasons why PinPics needed to and had to develop an internal system, but it's not enough. People thought original PinPics was dated because of the visuals not the functionality, and the visuals of the forum messages are not elegant. Instructional videos will not change that.

4. Information Integrity
a. Images that are of unauthorized pins - this is a point of contention elsewhere on Social Media. Some people do not trust that images of real pins were replaced with pins that are counterfeits, because there are too many examples of people who know, for a fact, they own an authentic pin and it does not match the picture that is now there.
b. Errors or missing information - removing the full release dates, to replace it with a year, is a major negative to me. I've played enough with databases to suspect the issue is one of programming and the problem with storing incomplete dates. But these dates helped me determine what individual trips I acquired a certain pin on, and placing pins that are part of a series in their release order.
c. Changes in what types of listings are allowed - this is probably a "personal to me issue," but the rule of original PinPics used to be that items would only be added in the form that they were originally sold in, and breaking that down into their individual pieces. So a framed set, could have the frame and each individual pin listed. However, 5 individual pins that were only obtainable *separately* could not be combined into a single listing. IMO, it gives people the idea that once upon a time you COULD have obtained them all in a single purchase, even though that was never the case. So things like the TDS game prize sets being listed as their sets, really bothers me, because of informational integrity. Yes, there are people that prefer to trade them as sets, but the way to address this is through Trade Assistant functionality (even if it is harder) NOT the listings.

No matter what people think about the people, the rumors, if the site functioned *well* at all of these, those types of things would be landing on deaf ears because if there is one thing you can say about pin traders its that there are a whole lot of them that are motivated by self-interest, and people want a well-run pin site which is why people keep trying to make one. Many people migrated to Pin & Pop because their Inspection Process shows a dedication that is backed up through action, toward pin integrity (sometimes too much). Of all the sites, IMO, it is by far the fastest to make updates when you are working your way through 100s of pins (as long as you can get to one of the pins and then use their Series / Theme tools to get to the rest). And most importantly MAKE TRADES! (during their events). Lots of trades! People are so excited when they get their packages, and that kind of excitement gets the attention of others. I've always said PinPics was three things. An Inventory system, an Encyclopedia, and a Trading Platform, and despite all the work new ownership thinks they've done, where it is still failing most is as a Trading Platform. Some of that is compounded by failures in the other two... pins not in the database quickly, and fear of counterfeits... likely being the primary culprits, and the never ending frustration of uneven trade requests... but functionally, I bet people are frustrated with even initiating / responding to trades even if they technically know how to accomplish it, and can't even begin to describe what a better system might look like.

People don't want to be negative, even here. Frankly, I think a lot is being left unsaid about WHY people don't participate here as much as they used to, that has nothing to do with positive / negative vibes. But that's not for here or now. But people generally like to be able to provide examples of how things could be better or how things are really, really broken or missing before they criticize. And that's hard to do with web design, because most people know nothing about how easy or hard something is to code. So they can't suggest ways to make it better. So it's easier to just say, regarding a feature, "Everything, looks great! You've done so much!" And then proceed to not use it. Honest feedback is hard. Harder when the response is to attack the character of the people providing the feedback as not recognizing how hard people are trying to make things better, and sidestep their criticisms. I've heard private communications where people say they are scared to say something critical because they don't want to get banned. That's on the new ownership, if people are seeing the way they interact with people here and on Facebook, and make a determination to keep quiet. And a really hard thing to overcome.

I'm sure this will receive another, "I should have communicated this" to info@pinpics before now response either publicly or between the ears , but from my POV anyone who is committed to developing the best Disney Pin Trading site *shouldn't* need these things pointed out by a user to have them put on the "to do" list *and* follow up and verify that it was done. The response that the image issue was "supposed to be fixed," doesn't help my confidence levels. If it was on the list of things to address, it's the responsibility of the owners and the people they rely on for testing to verify that it actually got addressed in a timely manner. (DH is a QA manager, and WFH since pandemic, so I've been hearing a lot of this type of follow through discussions.) It's hard to get anyone else motivated to speak up about the things that management has not followed up on; just the nature of things and people.

I don't expect to make more posts here, I didn't even want to make this one, because I still feel that on some level the users or formers users are more invested in what happens to PinPics, than the owners. Which I'm sure the owners would vehemently disagree with it based on money and time spent on the fixes, but those aren't the only measures of investment. That's not the way it should be, and the only way to bring things back into the proper order is to be less invested, less vocal. But the direction of this last page, got the better of me and I had to make the point that focusing on the circus, does not address the functional deficiencies that PinPics still has, which IMO, plays more into the lack of a contributing user base (both in feedback and pin additions) than the circus.

 

[BellesEnchantedRose]

Deleted my previous comments as there is no point to having them up here. Everyone has their own opinion and this thread seems to be just going in circles. Wishing everyone the best.

 

[stratasfan]

1. Site uptime - this has definitely improved.

2. Finding your pin amongst the 100,000 listings - I still hear from people, casually, about the difficulty of this. See requests from others to find pins they can't find in the database.
a. Image quality - already discussed as why this has been problematic
b. Search
i. Titles
ii. Descriptions
iii. Filters
c. Speed at which updates can be made to your Owns, Wants and Trades
d. Speed at which new pins are added

3. Trade Assist
a. Compare Feature - discussed to death
b. Communication - sorry, version 2 is still clunky and not as convenient as the original email system. I understand all the reasons why PinPics needed to and had to develop an internal system, but it's not enough. People thought original PinPics was dated because of the visuals not the functionality, and the visuals of the forum messages are not elegant. Instructional videos will not change that.

4. Information Integrity
a. Images that are of unauthorized pins - this is a point of contention elsewhere on Social Media. Some people do not trust that images of real pins were replaced with pins that are counterfeits, because there are too many examples of people who know, for a fact, they own an authentic pin and it does not match the picture that is now there.
b. Errors or missing information - removing the full release dates, to replace it with a year, is a major negative to me. I've played enough with databases to suspect the issue is one of programming and the problem with storing incomplete dates. But these dates helped me determine what individual trips I acquired a certain pin on, and placing pins that are part of a series in their release order.
c. Changes in what types of listings are allowed - this is probably a "personal to me issue," but the rule of original PinPics used to be that items would only be added in the form that they were originally sold in, and breaking that down into their individual pieces. So a framed set, could have the frame and each individual pin listed. However, 5 individual pins that were only obtainable *separately* could not be combined into a single listing. IMO, it gives people the idea that once upon a time you COULD have obtained them all in a single purchase, even though that was never the case. So things like the TDS game prize sets being listed as their sets, really bothers me, because of informational integrity. Yes, there are people that prefer to trade them as sets, but the way to address this is through Trade Assistant functionality (even if it is harder) NOT the listings.

I can answer some of this, as I work on updating listings every day.

2b In the old days, there was no continuity or required information for titles or descriptions. I don't know what "guidelines" might have been posted, but looking at thousands of listings spanning all the years of PinPics being online, I speak from practical experience . . . titles and descriptions stink. Too many submitters obviously were just entering pins to get them listed and PinPics Mods didn't go over listings. This inhibits searching. So, a lot of the issues with searches are actually the fault of the human element in the past . . . bad submissions and no Moderator revisions. Too many of the old listings (and I mean 2020 and before) don't even have the basic hit words/key words in the titles, let alone descriptions. Any pin listing you see that you have better keywords or more information about, leave a COMMENT in the comment tab on the pin listing . . . those are gone over every day and the information added to each pin listing!

2iii. The filters are only as good sa the checked-off attributes for each pin listing. Most of these were created post-2020 by the new owners to make searching better. However, until all the pin listings (or the majority) are fixed up from previous years, the filters can only filter what the human element (being users) get fixed.

2c. - Not sure what you mean by this . . . O/W/T are up to each individual person and quite fast to do yourself, so not sure.

2d. Those of us really working on PinPics are working constantly to fill those black year gaps when the previous owners did nothing and the site was so poor and the working Admin was so rude that submitting a pin got you a 30 or 60 day ban. Right now, brand new pins are being added as quickly as they can be, and there are volunteers in CA and DLP who stay on top of new releases and add as many as they can get of all the new pins. HKDL and SDR are in the works to get regular additions. WDW and TDR/TDS so far are open, but if anyone can help with those pins, I know it would be good!

Really, adding pins to fill the black holes is something that all of us users who were getting pins in those years could work on adding them to the database. This is something that is up to the users in a bigger way that just the owners. I know the owners add pins almost every day, trying to fill holes. We all can do our part to work on filling the gaps, so if you have pins that aren't listed . . . the thing to do is sit down and submit them! Then you get to mark them as O/T/W.

3a. The Compare feature is now back, with the ability to compare your own collections to any member and also to compare any other two members to each other. If you are still unable to figure out the Compare feature, I'm more than happy to do a How-To with anybody, as this was something I felt strongly about and am super happy to have back! It is back to fully functioning.

3b. We have actually just put up a new message system in the last month. There were actually two other versions since March, not just one. I agree. I really didn't like them. The first was impossible, and that was replaced with the chat that was OK, but not good. We have now replaced it with a message system that allows direct image uploading, you can use formatting and carriage returns (making paragraphs) and there are no text/size limits. It also saved a boatload of money from the chat software, which I was totally floored about when we found out! So, try out the new message system, as it is much more user-friendly. The message system from the previous site version (pre-March 2023) was horrible . . . no formatting, no images were able to be included, no notifications were sent out. It was lower than the chat that was just replaced. This is from personal experience . . . I've sent out several dozen Trade messages every week, probably since 2017 when I got on.

4a. Again, this is something that has to be helped by all the users who see the issues. There are too many pins for the new owners to correct personally all at once. If any user sees a picture that they think is a scrapper/fake, take a new picture of your authentic and send it in with a note of explanation! All comments are read every day! Pictures are replaced every day. Since March, it is thousands and thousands of image that have been replaced. This is a very easy thing that users can help with, as you can start going through your boards/books/collections and taking nice pictures of any that have lousy ones on the website. Sis and I started this way and are almost done going through all of our own pins. Only have C&D and a few Mickey pins left to photograph. Easy goals for people, too, as you can work on one section of your pins at a time. And it so helps the rest of the users when the pictures are nice!

4b. You are correct, it is a software thing. Personally, I like whole dates, too, when it is known. If you can find the whole date and/or place of release, I always add that in the pin description and tell when and where it was released originally. Also, making note if it was exclusive to one store/place, etc.

4c. I think this is a bit of a personal thing. I like listing individual pins form sets . . . most often I don't want a whole set, so I want to be able to try and trade for only the pin(s) form it I would like. Example: the Harvey's UP set . . . sold in a box with the five pins. But, I only want Kevin and Dug. I listed them on PinPics as five individuals and the set. I only want two. A framed set . . . maybe someone only wants Moana out of it. So, I like that. I don't care for complete set listings . . . listing whole HM sets together, etc . . . .IMO, just clogs up the database. However, that is completely my own personal preference, because there would be someone who has the reverse idea form me and only wants the sets listed and no singles . . . so, totally personal preference, as you said. I don't think this is the fault of any of the owners, as I would guess each user has their own idea of what types of listings should be listed. I think, if anything, allowing sets and individuals to be listed is better, because at least the users have the say of what they want to trade that way!


Just a comment on Pin & Pop . . . I've used P&P, I've traded on P&P and I still watch the trade arcades in case something really appears that would be worth it. But . . . after using it, I find several points that are a major downside . . . the listings - since there is no staff going over listings, the amount of duplicates is horrendous and the listings are terrible as far as information and hit words! And the pictures are hard to browse through, even pin art is allowed to be added. Makes browsing and searching hard. Also, their pin inspection process . .. I was disappointed in it. What they picked on was nit-picky and what they didn't mention was important to me. So, I'd rather take the responsibility personally and go over detailed pictures form the other traders, if I really think something is wrong or the pin has been faked. Also, their shipping left a lot to be desired and no rules for time-frame as far as getting your pins there and how long to accept/decline. I found the people super friendly, and liked the re-trade option, but over all, I'd say a mediocre experience. And now with the trade tokens and how many more trades are being cancelled overall . . . it is very expensive. So, P&P is not a good top platform for me. Not saying I would never use it again, I still update my collections and look at every pin in the arcades . . . still waiting for some of my semi-grails to come on! Then I'd jump in again and try . . . I'm always game to try. I actually have accounts on a bunch of pin sites!

To be honest, I loved the trading forum on DPF when people still posted. It was my favorite way to trade, actually. I intend to try the new trading forum on PinPics, too . . . I like the personal thing of going on someone's thread and just browsing their pics. Or the open trading threads for sets/series. Still my favorite way.



About feedback . . . to be honest, I don't see that. I would say that I've made more severe criticism since March than anyone. Strongly, too. Really, I'm sure I'm part of the ghostly-pale-effect when the compare feature is mentioned discussed as being something they don't wish to repeat. Feedback is taken at the live Thursday meetings, too, and I know a lot of ideas from people have been actually fixed and/or created on the site. Since the site is so large and each user uses the site so differently, it really is impossible to have a couple people going over every function without outside feedback. While the Compare function is totally important to me, Molly never used it. Same thing goes for every feature. What is important to you might be nothing to me.

I would like to say at this point . . . if anyone reading this has feedback or would like to comment on a funtion/feature that is or is not active on PinPics, please send me a PM. I won't pass it on in a critical manner and you won't get banned for sending serious feedback, good or bad. Of course, don't start your comment like one I got about a pin title - "WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE EVER WATCH THE MOVIE BEFORE WRITING THIS TITLE? . . . Um . . . It was a simple mistake on which Dalmatian puppy was on the pin in a listing from before 2012! Ugh . . . Anyway . . . Please feel free to send me feedback and I would be more than happy to pass it on and/or try and explain or work on it.

To be honest . . . ther aren't many people working on PinPics right now, as there is no money coming in to pay for workers. So . . . while it may be a trite thing to get the answer "supposed to be fixed", it happens. How can two people handle everything in what each individual user terms a timely manner? Can't. There are issues being worked on every day and some take longer. And sometimes something is thought to be done and just isn't because someone doesn't follow through like it was thought they would. As an example . . . on the military forum where I'm an Admin, we had a serious notification issue arise in July 2022. Notifications for followed content stopped arriving in many inboxes. this is erious to a forum, as interaction plummets when notifications stop. DPF is a living example . . . the old PinPics site was, too. So, I'm working on this issue constantly since July 2022. One of the members got really upset and reamed me out in PM and was very upset many times on the forum. What he failed to see was that it we don't have Amazon or Microsoft's team of tech workers AND we don't have their budget, either. Actually, it was me, with help from Sis and no budget. The military forum makes enough in donations to almost pay for the hosting. It is totally funded by one guy who does it as a service to the hobby. Not many people in the world like him, that's for sure. And he has two really good jobs to make it happen. To cut to the end . . . we finally got it fixed yesterday. I think . . . hoping it really is! I'm not making any 100% statements until it has gone on a bit longer -grin- Had to pay a tech in the end, and have a monthly subscription to a software. So, the owner now has to foot a bill of over $1K and a monthly subscription. And my time for a year and a half was totally volunteer. Is the irate user going to help with this? No. People don't understand the time and cost of things. And I get that. But, it is the reality of maintaining a site. The notifications issue was huge to me . . . forums die when you don't have them, because you don't know to check. To be honest, I wasn't receiving notifications for the last year, either. It was annoying. And something that was that annoying to me, and it still took a year and a half of solid work on my part to fix it. This isn't to excuse any issues that need to be fixed, just to explain a bit of the BTS as to why they sometimes take longer than we'd like.


Anyway, while I don't know the BTS to everything, I do know a bit, and hope some of this explains or helps. And I'm serious about the feedback.

 

[MollyAnne]

So, creators sold it to, who?, 'pinopolis' or something? And then current owners bought it from them?
I didn't realize the first buyers held on it to for so long, I thought they had gotten out quick... Maybe it was just that they stopped really doing anything with it...

The original owners sold it to the person who owned the Acme License in the US. We purchased all of the assets of PinPics from him in June of 2021. We are the sole owners, my husband, my sister and me.

 

[hopemax]

I can answer some of this, as I work on updating listings every day.

snipped for character limit

I had typed out a long post, and then my internet crapped out and lost it, and I do not have the energy to repeat it.

These weren't questions.

Right now, I'm feeling like the posts I made about my concerns about PinPics when Molly Anne and family bought PinPics which included a suggestion to refer to the older posts here, concerning the period following when LANSAM bought PinPics in 2012 including my own posts, were futile, and I know you were a participant in at least one of the threads where I made them, because I just reread it. I feel talked down to, when I know what I've already posted in regards to the complexity of the challenges any new owners would be facing, and specific ways to improve things. And the crazy thing about it is Chris from Pin & Pop contacted me about the things I said at the time, and we talked a little and I've seen some of those things be included in updates. I've also seen some of the suggestions I've made over the years implemented at My Pin Central too (even though I have no plans to use that site, other than some research, for reasons). Did someone read them, or did someone else independently have the same idea, I don't know. But seeing some sites implement the things people have been asking for, demonstrates we weren't off our rockers for suggesting them.

For example, this is one of the things I said in 2021, "This is one of the reasons I've been a long time advocate of any new database using Keyword Tagging approach, instead of relying on Users for properly spelling something, or including all the characters on a pin, or listing all the movie associations. One of the benefits of a database system is the data integrity that comes from storing information as numbers in fields instead of just "text." It has to be correct once, and then everyone else selects from a dropdown or autofill. Keyword tagging also helps with things like searching for Si or Am or Nana or bringing up on the Chip (chipmunk) pins vs Chip (the teacup) or pulling up all "Walt Disney World" pins that SAY "Walt Disney World" on them instead of every pin that was ever released at Walt Disney World. Similar thing, but a field for Series. People want a quick way to find all the pins in a series, and while trying to normalize the name helps, typos or missing one entry where someone did it wrong leads to duplicate listings." Highlighting the points where I demonstrate knowledge of the problems with the old site, and pointing out that normalization of nomenclature won't be enough, and I'm sure PinPics Mods will learn in time with the volume of times they have to fix stuff. And no, I'm not expecting people to remember everything everyone said. But when you run into people who demonstrate knowledge, responding as if they don't, isn't helpful. Mansplaining exists as a term for a reason.

I feel that your eagerness to defend PinPics and "explain," completely blows right past the more general points I was trying to make, and so as a response, it is unsatisfactory and your answer to 4c completely misinterprets what I mean by set listings vs individuals. It's not pins that were sold together, like the Harvey's set you mentioned. It's pins that were *never* released *together* (only at the same time) combined into a single entry. It would be like if Harvey's released 3 separate pins on the same day, but then on PinPics they were photographed and listed together as one item. That is what has happened with the TDS game pins.

I don't really need explanations about why things aren't right. I have a pretty good idea, that is confirmed with each new data point. But the PinPics owners seem to be confused about why people are so hard on them, why people aren't helping more, and I'd also guess why their work so far hasn't been as well received as they had hoped (ultimately the point in buying PinPics in the first place, right). My attempts to address that, appear to be for naught. And so the message is received loud and clear about the futility. But for one final go... you listed your reasons why Pin & Pop does not work for you... I listed areas in which PinPics does not work for me, and probably others. And the reply feels like a combo of "your expectations are too high," and "it works fine / that's the way it is." If Pin & Pop replied to you that way, I'd guess you would be pretty disappointed in that sort of response too, and make you even less eager to use that site.

And ugh, this is far too long again.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I loved PinPics from the start although I lurked for a long time before I ever participated. I was proud to contribute to the community in its crowd-sourced wiki format. We kept information up to date and correct as a community.

I would guess a lot of current users have no idea that it was originally made in wiki format where everyone could make immediate additions instead of going through moderators who have no idea what's actually in their own database nor what information is correct or not. But it also contributed to the sense of community built around a site that all of us actually built. We were credited for every entry we made - these weren't PinPics' creations, nor the moderators, it was all of our work and research and content. It was our community resource and we wanted it to be the best it could be. It was a site built by the community, of the community, for the community. Not for the PinPics owners. Not for the PinPics moderators. For all pin collectors, always, in other words.

Once it was sold, it lost its accuracy and its purpose as a crowd-sourced database.

It also became monetized in multiple ways including paywalls and advertising. New owners claimed rights to material I never would have given. I have learned my lesson from this, which is also why I don't participate here as much as I would like to - I don't want more of my content taken and used in a way I did not agree to.

PinPics died the day it was sold. And nothing will ever resurrect it back to the incredible resource it was. I just wish my content had not been misused and misappropriated in the process.

 

[stratasfan]

I had typed out a long post, and then my internet crapped out and lost it, and I do not have the energy to repeat it.

These weren't questions.

Right now, I'm feeling like the posts I made about my concerns about PinPics when Molly Anne and family bought PinPics which included a suggestion to refer to the older posts here, concerning the period following when LANSAM bought PinPics in 2012 including my own posts, were futile, and I know you were a participant in at least one of the threads where I made them, because I just reread it. I feel talked down to, when I know what I've already posted in regards to the complexity of the challenges any new owners would be facing, and specific ways to improve things. And the crazy thing about it is Chris from Pin & Pop contacted me about the things I said at the time, and we talked a little and I've seen some of those things be included in updates. I've also seen some of the suggestions I've made over the years implemented at My Pin Central too (even though I have no plans to use that site, other than some research, for reasons). Did someone read them, or did someone else independently have the same idea, I don't know. But seeing some sites implement the things people have been asking for, demonstrates we weren't off our rockers for suggesting them.

For example, this is one of the things I said in 2021, "This is one of the reasons I've been a long time advocate of any new database using Keyword Tagging approach, instead of relying on Users for properly spelling something, or including all the characters on a pin, or listing all the movie associations. One of the benefits of a database system is the data integrity that comes from storing information as numbers in fields instead of just "text." It has to be correct once, and then everyone else selects from a dropdown or autofill. Keyword tagging also helps with things like searching for Si or Am or Nana or bringing up on the Chip (chipmunk) pins vs Chip (the teacup) or pulling up all "Walt Disney World" pins that SAY "Walt Disney World" on them instead of every pin that was ever released at Walt Disney World. Similar thing, but a field for Series. People want a quick way to find all the pins in a series, and while trying to normalize the name helps, typos or missing one entry where someone did it wrong leads to duplicate listings." (Highlighting the points where I demonstrate knowledge of the problems with the old site, and pointing out that normalization of nomenclature won't be enough, and I'm sure PinPics Mods will learn in time with the volume of times they have to fix stuff.)

I feel that your eagerness to defend PinPics and "explain," completely blows right past the more general points I was trying to make, and so as a response, it is unsatisfactory and your answer to 4c completely misinterprets what I mean by set listings vs individuals. It's not pins that were sold together, like the Harvey's set you mentioned. It's pins that were *never* released *together* (only at the same time) combined into a single entry. It would be like if Harvey's released 3 separate pins on the same day, but then on PinPics they were photographed and listed together as one item. That is what has happened with the TDS game pins.

I don't really need explanations about why things aren't right. I have a pretty good idea, that is confirmed with each new data point. But the PinPics owners seem to be confused about why people are so hard on them, why people aren't helping more, and I'd also guess why their work so far hasn't been as well received as they had hoped (ultimately the point in buying PinPics in the first place, right). My attempts to address that, appear to be for naught. And so the message is received loud and clear about the futility. But for one final go... you listed your reasons why Pin & Pop does not work for you... I listed areas in which PinPics does not work for me, and probably others. And the reply feels like a combo of "your expectations are too high," and "it works fine / that's the way it is." If Pin & Pop replied to you that way, I'd guess you would be pretty disappointed in that sort of response too, and make you even less eager to use that site.

And ugh, this is far too long again.

Sorry you felt talked down to, as that certainly wasn't my intention. As to knowing what anybody said back in 2020 and 2021 . . . sorry. I never had a good memory and having COVID twice since last November has left me with an extremely poor memory. Glad for those who do have them, but with me, that isn't the case. Back in 2021, I know I posted during that time, too. However, who posted what . . . I really have no idea. I certainly wouldn't ever say "that's the way it is" about any issue where I am trying to work something out. Not my way.