Scalping is part of any collectible hobbying!!!

Nathan95 said:

This point had been brought up several times and i just still don't fully understand it. Who exactly are the "true collectors". To my understanding it seems like the "true collectors" are those who have no access to places like WDW, DLR, DSF, WDI, Etc and that the SoCal traders take from them. Are there no "true collectors" in SoCal?

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Woohoo!! I'm a true collector!

I would tend to agree with the original poster. Very well articulated.

I view all of this (pin trading or any hobby) as an ecosystem. You are going to have all sorts of different levels within the structure. Like it or not, all those different levels are needed for the hobby to survive. Yes. Even the flippers, resellers, sharks... whatever you want to call them are essential to the longevity of the hobby. Why? Because they are probably the primary means for people to buy a popular pin, if they were unable to directly acquire them. Sure. The prices are high, but so would be the amount of pins you would have to trade in order to acquire these pins. So... in my view, this is all perfectly natural. There are good people, "bad" people, and all the inbetween people.

Is it ok to complain about the "bad" people? Sure. Is it unfair to constantly lump an entire group into the "bad" category because they won't give away their pins at cost? I think so.

I believe someone recently did a very nice job of outlining what it really cost to get these pins and why they would sell them at a particular price point just to break even. That should be the baseline for a fair price. I also don't agree with people who really raise the prices sky high, but I accept the fact that it may be market value at that point in time and it is difficult to find many pins lower than the current market value. It is what it is. If you don't like it, feel free to complain about the high prices and refuse to buy them.

I think that some people take exception to the complaining, when disparaging words are used, and feel like they are being directed at the group as a whole. It's a sad and vicious circle of complaint and justification, which eventually escalates into the constant drama and fighting.

Me? I don't care all that much about the pins and try to help people who are not local. I never promise that I can get a pin and only promise that I will try. Do I really care about the eBay prices or the prices in the selling forum? Not all that much. I think some of them are outrageously high, but I don't say anything because I am speaking loudly enough, with my wallet, by not buying them at those prices.

I guess what the OP is saying and what I'm saying is that there isn't anything you can really do about the high prices and tearing into people on this forum isn't going to make it go away. In perspective, pins are a luxury item and I could walk away anytime I wanted to, but it's really the people and relationships that are developed that make me keep coming back. It's a shared experience, this urban camping, and I sometimes don't understand the big deal about all the heartache and stress that people who have never been seem to project upon this activity.

Best of luck, everyone!

Didn't read the whole thread but personally, I like the demand on the secondary market. I like that there is value in the pins I like and that Im not just over paying Disney for pieces of metal. I try and get as much stuff as I can directly from Disney since I don't like paying the mark up but I love the fact that it is there should I want it. No body likes paying more but if its a choice between not getting it or paying more, I'll pay more for something I want.

The monopoly analogy just doesn't apply here. A monopoly exists when a single entity has control of the supply of a commodity and there are significant barriers preventing anyone else from competing. That is not the case here.

This also isn't about price-fixing...it is pure supply and demand. There are plenty of LE300, LE200, etc. that you can buy on ebay for not much more than the original retail cost. Even assuming that just a handful of people are able to get their hands on an entire release, they can't get together and say 'let's charge $400', because if the pin is Donald Duck on a skateboard ain't nobody gonna pay that. Some pins immediately skyrocket in value because the number of people who want them far outweighs the number of pins - supply and demand....and then more people want it precisely because it's so hard to get, etc. etc. If you don't like the prices, don't get on the Rapunzel or (insert currently-popular character or theme here) bandwagon.

As for the cost of pins and taking into account gas, parking, food, etc... (takes deep breath and prepares to run for cover)...it's a red herring. This next bit may not be popular but please read it all before jumping: if you spend a lot of money for gas and parking, camp out for 48 hours shivering in the rain and the cold, etc., you are doing it because you have made a decision that obtaining that pin(s) justifies that time and expense. You may be doing it purely as a favour for another collector, in which case of course it's fair that they also reimburse you for your expenses and trouble. You may be doing it because you want the pin yourself, and you get some extra to sell to subsidize your own purchases and expenses. You may be doing it simply because you know that you can sell the pin(s) for far more money than you will pay for them. My ultimate point (and it really did take me a long time to get here) is that there is nothing wrong with buying a pin for any or all of these reasons. Justifying the price of a pin based on gas/parking/camping/etc. is a red herring because YOU DO NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY TO ANYONE WHAT YOU CHARGE FOR A PIN...so why get into an argument about what is a 'fair' price for all those things? The 'fair' price is the market value.

Let's keep in mind that we aren't talking about groceries or phone service. These are little bits of pretty metal. They are luxury items, in the sense that you do not need them. You are not entitled to obtain them for a 'fair' price based on some convoluted equation to measure the actual 'cost' of a pin. The 'fair' price is the market value. Period. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

With all due respect, I also don't understand the argument that sellers of pins should not sell here on the forum. We are all adults and we can make our own decisions. Sometimes I buy from DPF members and sometimes I don't, because sometimes the price is what I'm willing to pay and sometimes it isn't. If a DPF seller is charging the same price as ebay I go to ebay (assuming it's a reputable seller), because I don't have to pay the fees and I get the protection of paying as a "purchase". To suggest that you shouldn't "s--t" where you eat implies that selling a pin for market value is a disgusting/shady/dishonourable act. It isn't. I see absolutely no reason why a "pure collector" can't be friendly with someone who sells pins - why on earth not??? If a member sells here, or tells other members about their ebay listings, how exactly does that adversely affect the community? This is a forum for people who are interested in Disney pins. Some of those people are sellers. They do not have an unfair advantage, since any seller can join the forum and any buyer can go buy their pins elsewhere.

Interestingly, this issue never comes up in the context of someone selling pins for $20 or $30, or selling an older pin for its current market value. It only comes up when pins are selling for huge amounts of money shortly after release. ...so it isn't really about pure collectors vs. sellers.

A monopoly does apply to the single source of the pins as well as the issue of price fixing. not that it was the point it was a loose analogy to explain that because its such a small amount of pins, they are being purchased by a small group of people and they do all pretty much decide what they will ask for them. The valentines pins flopped for a variety of reasons but the resellers predicted that they would go for enough to justify the three days camp out, we'll they were wrong of course. There is no social connection on eBay. The relationship is very clear as buyer/seller. Here people are both making friends (or are they) as well as securing customers and that blurs the lines.

The point about trying to explain away the costs of buying I agree is ridiculous. If people could not make a fortune on he pins they would not camp out to buy them, they would not drive so far if the cost of gas is 5x the price of the pins. They would buy them at 5-10 bucks over retail instead. Yes collectors do camp out but the necessity to do so is combo of more interest in them in general and because of the resellers. There are several veteran collectors that tell tales of the days when le pins would hang on the racks for weeks, if they would have been praised like they are now the lines would have always existed.

Still feels like you are reading into my statement, hopefully we can agree to disagree and not have this spin out. If everyone really is entitled to their opinion, to make their own view known, it would be nice to not be jumped on for voicing mine.

It wasn't my intention to jump on anyone and I apologize if it seemed that I was. I enjoy a spirited discussion and we should all be able to debate without things becoming personal.

If you mean that Disney has a monopoly on the pins, well that isn't the meaning of monopoly. That's like saying McDonald's is a monopoly because they're the only ones who sell Big Macs.

Price-fixing implies the ability of a small number of entities to effectively set the price of a given product - the Valentine pins in fact show that they do not have that ability.

As for the seller vs collector issue, the mere fact that social connections are mixed with commercial connections, and it 'blurs the lines' between buyer and seller, doesn't explain why that is inappropriate. In other words, you can't effectively argue that sellers shouldn't mix business with friendship because sellers shouldn't mix business with friendship - there has to be some reason why that is inappropriate. For example, if I choose to socialize with my hairdresser or my butcher, what is the harm? At the other extreme, a psychologist shouldn't engage in a romantic relationship with a patient - not because the 'supplier' should not socialize with the 'buyer', but because there is an inherent power imbalance that can arise from the doctor-patient relationship. Here there is no power imbalance, because I am perfectly free to buy the exact same pin elsewhere.

The other problem with the collectors vs sellers argument is that it assumes DPF is intended as a place for collecting/trading only. This is a community that happens to include some people who only collect and trade, and some people who also sell to other members. I absolutely agree that you have the right to prefer a community that does not include selling to other members, but that does not mean that this community is flawed and should change because it does not conform to that preference. Each person is free to decide whether they want to be a part of the forum and to what extent they participate. I hope that you stay, because it sounds like you have a lot to offer, but you have to decide whether DPF is the place for you based on what it is, not what you wish it to be.

I love Transformers! I grew up watching the show and playing with them.

My jaw has dropped at some of the pin price mark ups but I really don't fault anyone for trying to make money. If you can get someone to pay you 300 bucks you should do it. You don't owe it to me or anyone else to go through the stress and trouble to obtain them and sell them at cost...and yet some people do, which is awesome and it blows me away every time I see it! Maybe all you guys are a lot closer to people on here than I am, but I would never expect someone who only knows me online to do me a favor (especially one that means they'd be out a big profit). Maybe I don't understand because I still get excited about pins that I can get cheap/easy. We are very happy with our little growing collections. I was a little nervous when one of my boys started collecting Stitch because I know a lot of those pins are pricey and I want to get him that new PTD pin but I haven't had the opportunity to get it yet and that's okay because I got him the Stitch Admission ticket pin through a trade and a Hidden Mickey T-Shirt with Stitch on it from a seller on here for like 2 bucks and he was thrilled. There is no desperate life or death need for any pin unless I choose to see it that way.

I appreciate the kindness of people selling things cheaper on here but I don't expect everyone to do that. I appreciate the kindness of people being willing to trade with me even though I only have a few references so far. We are all big kids here and we can wait for what we want if we aren't able to pay what someone is asking on release day. The only "scalping" I have a problem with is the people who buy up all the Skylanders or whatever coveted toy is at Christmas and make parents choose between paying a ridiculous amount or disappointing their kid at Christmas. I can wait for what I want but don't mess with my kids! LOL Luckily, we have a great relationship with our GameStop guy so we don't miss out on too much. And even in that situation I can really only blame Activision for only releasing a handful of certain ones at a time. Now that a Pokemon game like Skylanders is coming out I can only imagine the scalpers getting ready to come out of the woodwork. And of course my boys will want them allllllllllllllll. :facepalm: I know I will be running around crazy trying to get them and if they let me buy more than 1 I will have to get 1 for my niece. I can't imagine the stress of being expected to also get some for people I know in a forum or face everyone being mad at me. Everyone griping about how no one will get them pins at cost is just going to make the members who could do that feel bitter and unappreciated so they stop doing it altogether. If someone expects or acts entitled to an act of kindness it takes the joy out of it for the giver. Yes this is a community but no one owes anyone anything. We all have our own friends and families to look after first and for many that includes making a buck (or 300) off this hobby when they get a chance. I may not be willing to pay what they ask but I will never think less of them for it.

+1000 Molly
well stated!!

Nathan95 said:

This point had been brought up several times and i just still don't fully understand it. Who exactly are the "true collectors".

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Nathan brought up a very good point. I would like to see this term discussed and explained a bit.

In my understanding, true collectors are just that ... purely collectors. They try to buy as close to retail as possible, and then hold on to those pins. In an ideal world, they probably would avoid scalpers as much as they can.

Also, if you limit your activity to only collecting, there should be no trading or pin flipping involved. In that sense, not many of us are really purely collectors, because we trade too - fair or sharky, we still trade.

I am interested in other's definition of a "true collector" now, but please do not make me regret asking this