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Sharking vs. Getting a good deal(part1 in a series on pin morals)

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Sharking vs. Getting a good deal(part1 in a series on pin morals)
StoneColdBoo316

StoneColdBoo316

Gimme a RAWR YEAH!
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Let me start by saying this is NOT a rant, based on a bad experience or directed at any particular person it's simply an observation because I am very curious .

At the trade tables and forums I am always hear people complaining "oh , I don't trade so and so because they are sharks" or giving me the advice " look out for that person because they shark" but those very same people boast about the great deals they get from some random trader that walks up , or will make very lopsided offers . Also how come its not considered sharking in cases of purchases like some may chastise those who accept heavily lopsided trades offers from beginners but if they found a Tangled marquee for 12$ because that's what they remembered paying then all of those people would buy it at that cost happily and be very happy about it rightfully so too but I just wanted to know opinions and ideas please share inquiring mind would love your input
 
I'm not the kind of person to tell you who to avoid at the trading tables, but there are people that I choose to stay away from. With that said, I agree with you that people should be fair both ways when making a trade with someone. I try my best to make fair trades when I'm in the parks, and if someone makes me an offer I don't feel comfortable with, I'll call them out on it. And it doesn't matter if I'm making the better trade or they are. I'd feel bad walking away from a trade if it was really lopsided. It's almost like stealing! When it comes to trading a pin that I purchased, I look at what I paid for it, how much it is going for, and how well it trades. I've gotten expensive pins cheap on eBay and traded for other expensive pins, but I don't think its being a shark. Sometimes we get lucky when buying or finding pins for myself.

When trading, just think about the fairness of the trade. Just because you know more about a pin, doesn't give you the right to use that knowledge to cheat someone out of a good trade. You wouldn't want someone to do that to you, would you?
 
I can see where you are coming from and from what I can tell your views and mine are very similar but I just can't get past the if purchasing luck comes into play why doesn't trading luck(keep in mind I'm not disagreeing with purchasing pins cheap because I've done it too so ) but isn't it luck if I find a podm at a traders pin for pin or if someone has it for sale on eBay for 1$ aren't they both the same amount of luck of finding someone who doesn't know what their pin is worth ?


Keep in mind I'm not defend or attack any of the acts mentioned this thread is simply for my curiosity as to the mentality and though process that separates the acts or scenarios
 
As with the above reply, i dislike telling people to "avoid" certain people. Both my husband and I try to not rock the boat or accuse others of sharking or being a heavy reseller. Do we know people who are? Yes, but we won't actively verbally attack them to other people. Niether he or I ask for lopsided trades either. We strive to be as fair as physically possible in all our trades, both online and face to face. With that in mind lets discuss my personal opinion of the difference between a "shark" and a lopsided trade.

a shark by most pin traders standards is someone who deliberately goes out of their way to try and get a HEAVILY lopsided trade from other people. A shark uses pin knowledge against a less experienced trader. A shark ((I have seen this)) implies or outright lies about a pins value to force a more unfair trade.
Example:
you say, " I really like this DA LE500 Tinkerbell, do I have anything in my book you like?"
Shark looks through your book and says, "The only thing in your book worth that DA is this Up Marquee."

Now, thats an exaggeration, but you get the idea.....

A lopsided trade, same situation.
you say, "I really like this DA LE500 Tinkerbell, do I have anything in my book you like?"
The other trader looks through you book and says, "The only thing I really like in your book is this Up Marquee, lets see if we can find a few other pins to make it even?"
You look through and find a few other things, but none are exceptional, even though all of them would go into your keeper collection. You then tell the other trader, "I like these 5, would you trade 3 of them?"
The other trader, knowing that even those 5 are not worth the total of that marquee, offers you all 5 for the marquee. You both walk away happy, because you just added 5 pins to your private collection, and the other trader got the UP marquee for their trade book.

general rule is, if both traders are happy with the results, it is a fair trade. If you came on here with this story, as the person getting the marquee, people would call you a shark. And if your were the one who gained 5 pins, folks might say you got sharked. Everyone judges so harshly when they hear about a lopsided trade. BUT, if you and the other trader are happy, who has the right to call foul?

Now, obviously there are going to be other opinions,:rolleyes: which is exactly what i think you are seeking here, calm thoughtful opinion. I hope everyone who chimes in on the topic keeps that in mind. :angel:
 
I actually really appreciate this post. I'm a newbie when it comes to trading. Have only done about 3-4 trades via DPF and Pinpics. I'd love to try to trade in person with someone either at the DSF or Disneyland. :)
 
this is a very sore subject these days. The question you would have to ask is would you sell your designer villians that you paid $250 for for retail when you could get $1000 for them. There are some of us that need the money so we sell our extra pins when needed. then there are those that just buy as many of HTF pins only to sell them. the difference is that the buyer knows the original price and we are the reason these people can rob us to get pins we want. that is our faults.
as for sharking, i think many many people these days are trying to uptrade. I havent traded deeply since 2007 but it was so different back then. people traded more freely. I sent out 550 trade offers this past week or so and got 3 replies. 2 of these were accepts for my super desired pin got their similar wants/trades pin. One trader actually countered offering their 6 pin lock set which i believe is not LE for my 6 WDI wait time signs le 300. they could be newer or they could have been testing the waters to see if i was manipulatible. I personally feel that if i am asking you for a trade, i dont mind trading a better pin for the one i want. I am asking you, i want the trade so my offer should be appealing to you.

I think there are still many of us out there who will tell a trader that their offer is lopsided and in our favor. i know quite a few traders that if i offer a trade, it better be in their favor if i even want a reply. so i just avoid them. then you will get the opposite, you tell the trader their pin is better, then they turn into the shark and want the moon for their pin.

if trading isnt fun with someone, dont trade with them. and stop paying $500 for a darn pin!!!
 
Psycho pixie- I with a few others discussed your stance and although my and their personal perception of what is a shark slightly differ (which most people's idea of the subject varies someway or another )from your we agreed you had a very logical take on what makes a fair and overall we agreed with it also I appreciate that you helped me push the point that I'm looking for differing points and opinions in a calm manner .

GhostTrain- your reply in th first paragraph didn't seem as applicable to this thread as much as one of my upcoming ones so please keep an eye out and build upon that because I have much interest in your stance here .
 
hmm tough subject. I remember when I was a newbie and I jumped head first into the concrete of UP and that was before I knew prices can reach sky high, back then $100 was sky high (how times have changed) anyway I found that I couldn't trade UK pins for any of them or people asked waaay to much for them but then I didn't know the term Shark for some time to come.

I would say many of the older traders could be called a shark when they have HTF pins or pins they paid such and such for and are only looking to get what they paid back or them so the term is all relative to each trade that is made in my opinion. I may have been called a shark at some point when I have asked for pins for certain ones I have had in the past but then I only ask for what I paid for them in terms of number of pins, wants vs trades and original cost etc.

But like I said I think its all relative to each individual trade that takes place but I agree with Pixie and saying if both participants in the trade are walking away happy then who is to judge and point the finger and call shark.
 
random funny related pic.

funny-shark-mantee-friend.jpg
 
I agree that if both parties are happy it is a fair trade. I recently got a request for a pin and they offered a DSF LE300. I didn't feel comfortable so I offered another pin for it and the trader was very grateful.

I can't say that I call people out on their unfair trades, but I do say no thank you and move on. I have also noticed that trading has become slow but I suspect the holidays are a big reason. Out of town, saving money, etc.

If only that would keep people from paying $500+ for a pin as mentioned above! I love my collection, but would not pay that. And how do you send a trade request for a pin that is known to have sold for over $1000 multiple times?

Anyway, back on topic. The best thing to do is to know your pins and the pins you want to the best of your ability. Keep pinpics on your phone if you can when going to an event (even if it is just to check if its a scrapper...I won't make that mistake again. I don't believe the person knew it was fake, but its my fault for not checking anyway). Don't be afraid to say no if it seems unfair but the best part is to jump in and learn as you go! We are here to help and share our stories and tips.
 
This is a very interesting subject, and no doubt will have as many opinions as there are people reading the thread.

I agree for the most part that if both sides are happy, then it is a fair trade.

My only problem, and IMO this is my problem because it is how I feel, is when one later feels taken advantage of after the trade. Specifically, in the few times I have made a fair trade, only to see that pin turned around and used for more profit later.

I used to be overly generous in trades, mostly because it really makes me happy to make someone else happy. I would make lopsided trades in the other person's favor, because I imagined that if they were sending a trade request, they really wanted the pin for their collection, and I was happy to be able to bring a smile to their face. I assumed it would go into their collection and be enjoyed.

But a couple of times (and this was many years ago) I saw my trades immediately turned around for profit, via evilbay and sale requests on the boards.

Now, I morally do not have a problem with a free-market system, and do not have a problem with someone being a middle-man and turning a profit when they have found a way to make one. But these were profits made off of my generosity, and thus I really felt taken advantage of. Once again, I am not stating that this is wrong to do, I am merely saying that for myself, it made me feel bad.

So I simply stopped making trades involving potentially higher value pins. Honestly, it was easier to just buy the ones I wanted off of evilbay. That way the transaction is up-front, and the "value" of the pin is established by putting it out there for all the world to bid on.
 
This does, however, remind me of a comment that a relative made years ago (before the Internet), about the antique business. She was an antique dealer.

We were talking about the tv show the Antiques Roadshow (on PBS), and she made the comment that she hated it. She said it "ruined" the antique business. I asked her why, and she stated because now everyone knew what their stuff was worth, making it impossible for her to buy it at an undervalued price from individual owners and sell it for a profit.
 
What really burns me up is when someone wants a very hard to get pin of mine they say it is a grail or for their kids etc etc so I work out a trade most times in their favor just to help a fellow trader out and then I see they put it up on ebay a week later. This kinda of makes you jaded. I still try to help my fellow traders out but I am a lot more picky of who I try to help. So for me that is the definition of a shark.
 
I think a shark is someone who lies about pin value to someone who isn't as knowledgable on the subject. Someone who KNOWS they are being dishonest and doesn't care. Plain and simple.

Re-sellers are *NOT* sharks as I think the term "pin shark" is typically used in regard to trading. Re-sellers are... re-sellers and you can love them or hate them but I'm willing to wager that at least 70% of us on this board have bought an LE pin at a higher price (either here or on Ebay) at some point that we may not have gotten very easily through trades. So in that sense, re-sellers are not terrible. As others have stated, high price is usually based off us, the buyers, and our demand and what we are willing to pay. On the other hand, it's easy to say, "Stop buying at high prices!" to people on here but if it's a pin that is say LE200 and in high demand, usually someone WILL end up buying it anyway because they have the money and to them the price may not seem so bad. Remember everyone has a different idea of value for the most part. While you may think that a pin that sells at $50.00 is too high, someone else may view that as no big deal. I, as well as other pin collectors that I know, have bought a pin for a semi-higher value simply because it was one that doesn't go up for sale often and I had the money at the time and it was worth it to me to own it and end my searching/hawk-eyeing Ebay/hassle for that one pin so I could move onto something else in my wants collection. For me, I paid that extra amount because it was also a matter of convenience and having the funds. Probably some impatience too if I should be completely honest :) If that makes me a bad person then so be it I suppose. :dunno:

In any case, I don't hate on re-sellers for the most part, people do this in every hobby and they only re-sell because there is the demand. That's just my opinion. However, I can see where someone would feel taken advantage of if they sold/traded someone a HTF pin on a generous basis just to have the person immediately turn around and sell it for a CRAZY price. I can't say as that would make me very happy either.
 
When I think about this topic, there's an interesting line I find myself approaching, but first and foremost:

if a trader lies, deceives, or misleads another person about the value of a pin to gain an advantage, that's a shark
if a trader knowingly trades a counterfeit pin to another trader, that's a shark (and a scum)

Now, my condundrum. I'm very involved in bioethics, so I find myself pondering larger questions, like how far one needs to go in a trade to ensure it's fair. If someone approaches me with an LE 500 and wants a new (but authentic) HM for it, do I need to educate them? Even more perplexing is that we are attempting to teach our two boys to be honest and ethical. It's refreshing to see that they are always uncomfortable making a trade like this unless we tell the other person what they have at first. So, I'm succeeding in fatherhood, but failing in pin trading, lol.

Is there an obligation to educate? I think there is, but it's certainly not clear-cut, and I wouldn't call someone a shark for not doing so. I think someone who does can feel good about themselves, but that doesn't mean one who doesn't should feel badly. Trader beware.

What about those who acquire many LEs with the intent on selling them for a profit? While it might mean others may not be able to add to a collection for a reasonable price, that's capitalism at its finest. When I buy LEs, I do buy extras with the intent of trading them for my tougher wants (although this has minimally worked out, lol). I think that someone who convinces a cast member to sell the final 6 PODMs, and the person behind them who has been waiting in line for 5 hours gets nothing, is doing something icky, it's not sharky.

Anyways, feel free to disagree, agree, or most likely, ignore me, but that's my 2 cents.

Now, if anyone has some of my toughies for trade, PLEASE TELL ME!
 
For me personally, I label someone as a shark if they are aggressive and not very comfortable to deal with. As long as someone is nice and pleasant, I don't care if they offer me a hidden mickey for an Auctions 100, I won't get offended I will just say no. I will still like the person and not have an issue about it. It's the people who are aggressive and go after you and your pins. I have had this happen before where I am trying to trade and I start to feel attacked and uncomfortable and when I try to say it's not going to work out with the pin they want and try to work something else out, they get huffy and upset and angry at me for saying no to them.

Those are "sharks" to me. Mean, aggressive pin traders who want it their way or the high way.
 
jjgasman said:
When I think about this topic, there's an interesting line I find myself approaching, but first and foremost:

if a trader lies, deceives, or misleads another person about the value of a pin to gain an advantage, that's a shark
if a trader knowingly trades a counterfeit pin to another trader, that's a shark (and a scum)

Now, my condundrum. I'm very involved in bioethics, so I find myself pondering larger questions, like how far one needs to go in a trade to ensure it's fair. If someone approaches me with an LE 500 and wants a new (but authentic) HM for it, do I need to educate them? Even more perplexing is that we are attempting to teach our two boys to be honest and ethical. It's refreshing to see that they are always uncomfortable making a trade like this unless we tell the other person what they have at first. So, I'm succeeding in fatherhood, but failing in pin trading, lol.

Is there an obligation to educate? I think there is, but it's certainly not clear-cut, and I wouldn't call someone a shark for not doing so. I think someone who does can feel good about themselves, but that doesn't mean one who doesn't should feel badly. Trader beware.

What about those who acquire many LEs with the intent on selling them for a profit? While it might mean others may not be able to add to a collection for a reasonable price, that's capitalism at its finest. When I buy LEs, I do buy extras with the intent of trading them for my tougher wants (although this has minimally worked out, lol). I think that someone who convinces a cast member to sell the final 6 PODMs, and the person behind them who has been waiting in line for 5 hours gets nothing, is doing something icky, it's not sharky.

Anyways, feel free to disagree, agree, or most likely, ignore me, but that's my 2 cents.

Now, if anyone has some of my toughies for trade, PLEASE TELL ME!
Click to expand...

I'd say that as a responsible pin trader, yes, you should educate/mention value in the instance of an LE trade. Here is a situation that I think someone would be labeled as a "shark" and is also an example of being deceitful. Let's say (this is all hypothetical) that a ten year old girl approaches you with her parent. You chit chat briefly and they mention that they visit the parks once a year and buy pins while they visit. The little girl sees that you have an Ariel HM pin that she really wants since Ariel is her favorite princess. So she opens her book to trade and you see the Tangled Opening Day 2010 pin in her traders. If you see that pin and know it's value going into the trade (on average worth about $150-$200) and say to her "Well, I want this one. How about your Tangled one for my Ariel HM? That'd be fair I think," well then you'd be lying through your teeth and taking advantage of someone's naivety for your own personal gain. This is sharky behavior in my opinion and sadly, this sort of thing does happen (not this exact pin trade scenario but I've heard similar stories).

Now, if you saw the pin and said, "Well, I really, really want your Tangled pin but I gotta be honest with you both, that's a really rare, hard to find pin. It sells for pretty high normally, somewhere around $150 to $200 but if you want to trade it, I'll let you have it's worth from whatever I have in my collection" that's fair and honest.

Even with LEs, when trading in the past I've told people about the LE value up front to ensure a fair trade. I traded with my friend once and I traded an LE 1000 for a CM exclusive pin. He said to me, "You know that your pin is worth way more than mine, right? Just checking!" and I told him that I knew and still would gladly make the trade and thanked him for informing me. If the person trades for something worth less than their pin and you inform them of value and offer more but they are happy to do the trade as is, then you both walk away happy. The trade may be lopsided sure, but no one was sharked or lied to and both people walk away totally happy with the trade (as is the case with my friend and I).
 
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