Should there be a no tied leader board rule?

So i had an interesting chat with someone and points where made, so fist off please don't go off topic and no rude or offensive comments. Lets keep this civil and polite.

What do you think? Should there be a new rule forbidding auctions to have tied spots? By the time you post a leader board you should have had time to think and value each bid and pick from the two by what ever proses you may use.

What do you think?

I think it's up to the person auctioning....I know that some people consider "tie-ing" people so others will offer more pins...but if no one does then eventually the person auctioning will have to choose a winner anyway...so, I wouldn't worry about it <3

I think that works EXCEPT when you get close to the end of an auction and people are wanting the leader board updated as they bid. So I guess I would agree with the rule for all but maybe the last hour of the auction.

I don't see a problem with ties on the leaderboard. There have been times I like 2 bids equally so I have them tied. At the end, you are going to have to pick just one bid.

I would agree. No tied leader board. I wouldn't say that it "forces" somebody to increase their bid, but in reality, that's what the auctioneer is hoping and asking.

In a real auction there aren't tied bids, but these are opinion-based auctions and sometimes people can't really decide until time is up. I personally don't believe in tie leader boards as I'm sure whoever the auctioneer is has a great sense to who's actually in the lead, but as mentioned earlier, by putting tied leader boards they open the auction to more bids.

They also may be opening it up to different bids. For instance, I really liked the bids that I was getting from two different participants in an auction I did earlier. However, one of them had a grail pin of mine that it was going to be tough for me to give up. That doesn't mean the other person didn't have a pin that could have been offered that I haven't seen yet but I would like just as much or even better.

I don't run auctions so I've never had to choose between two and with some auctions (like Darris') where each bid has at least one grail pin you'd love to have, it gets even tougher to run. However, I do think there should be a no tied for 1st place rule because as said, that just forces those people to bid a lot more. Even worse if they don't update that tied leaderboard for about 1.5 days, during that 1.5 days the 2 people start bidding back and forth being worried when they really are bidding so much more than they need to. If the tied leaderboard happens in the last few hours as well it becomes hectic and kind of unfair for those 2 who are tied because they start to bid so much in hopes of getting the pin and end up probably giving up way more than they have to >_< Just my 2 cents

kupo1121 said:

I don't run auctions so I've never had to choose between two and with some auctions (like Darris') where each bid has at least one grail pin you'd love to have, it gets even tougher to run. However, I do think there should be a no tied for 1st place rule because as said, that just forces those people to bid a lot more. Even worse if they don't update that tied leaderboard for about 1.5 days, during that 1.5 days the 2 people start bidding back and forth being worried when they really are bidding so much more than they need to. If the tied leaderboard happens in the last few hours as well it becomes hectic and kind of unfair for those 2 who are tied because they start to bid so much in hopes of getting the pin and end up probably giving up way more than they have to >_< Just my 2 cents

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+1

I think I'd be on board with the no ties for first place rule. Even if the auctioner has the best intention and is truly undecided, I think a tie for first *feels* like a ploy for more pins and turns some people off.

I compltely agree with the no tie for first.

I understand people thinking that the tie for first is a ploy to get the bid higher. Sometimes it is really hard to make a decision on really good bids. Sometimes your spouse likes one offer better and you like another one better and at the end you have to make a decision.

People need to remember one thing, nobody is forcing you to bid in the auction. Nobody is forcing you to up your bid if you are tied.

To me, if I am tied with somebody it lets me know I am right there and I can up the bid if I want or let it ride and take my chances.

For us it is what it is. If you like it, bid. If it bothers you, don't.

My opinion for what it is worth (I know, not much)

I have neither held nor bid on an auction but I have watches a few of them play out here. IMO I completely understand two bids being so close that it is difficult to decide an from I have seen/heard the seller is not obligated to post a leader board a often as some do. I have also seen them end with the seller needing time to decide because he bids are so close to them, which in essence is a tie but because time was up it HAD to be thought through more carefully.

On the flip side I can see as a bidder why that could be distressing, is it a cry for more bids? Yes of course but not anymore so than simply putting someone else's bid above yours. If I was in a heated bidding war, I would not like to see a tied situation either. If saying there are no ties allowed caused the seller to carefully weigh the bids before a leader board was posted, some would cry that the leader board takes too long so I am not sure what which holds more importance, fast leader boards or no ties?

M.

I think, personally, that when it comes to first place and second place, it isn't bad if you did this:

1. Person A
2. Person B
*spots 1 and 2 are EXTREMELY close

since that basically denotes a tie, BUT if neither party bids anymore, at least we know A will win. What if, in the case of a complete tie, neither side bids again...well, you have a problem since you just said it was a perfect tie and yet your picking a winner? If you pick a winner, that shows right there that the tie wasn't real and you could have just thought about it more and said the example above. I just feel like a first place should always be known, even if 2 and 1 are neck and neck, think about it in terms of what if nobody bidded anymore, who would you choose. You'd have to pick one so pick it before you make the leaderboard ^_^

We recently ran our first auction and we had several ties....and feel that is okay with people to be tied within reason.

For instance, we share a screename, so when we mentioned people were tied it was because Jesse liked Pin Trader A's bid more than Pin Traders B's bid and I liked Pin Trader B's bid more than Pin Trader A's bid...but we both saw why each of us liked the other more. So we tied them. It isn't a ploy. Sometimes it's hard to choose, sometimes it's obvious.

PinHunters said:

For instance, we share a screename, so when we mentioned people were tied it was because Jesse liked Pin Trader A's bid more than Pin Traders B's bid and I liked Pin Trader B's bid more than Pin Trader A's bid...but we both saw why each of us liked the other more. So we tied them. It isn't a ploy. Sometimes it's hard to choose, sometimes it's obvious.

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This is also a great statement, sometimes it just is. I'll tell you for sure right now that if I had an auction and one bid was:

- Little Mermaid Stained Glass pin

vs.

- Beauty and the Beast Stained Glass pin
+
- Jessica as Cat Burglar

I'd have such a hard time deciding because that'd be my grail versus my 2nd and 3rd most wanted pin of all time (not including Stitch Invasion Snow White pin since that would probably take the win no matter what it was up against seeing as it is the rarest pin I have on my wants list BY FAR)

However, you guys will have to eventually decide anyways if nobody bids more on it so the way I see it, why not figure it out early?

I can understand the appeal of a "no ties" rule, but I don't think we need one:

As some have already said, there are valid reasons for saying that 2 or more bids are tied.

There is a concern that a tie might encourage over-bidding but, as has already been said, no one is being forced to bid more than they think the pin is worth.

Having a leader board with one bidder in the lead, and another as a close second, could lead to the same over-bidding.

I don't believe that the rules even require leader boards, so any ranking, even with a tie, is helpful to the bidders and more than the auctioneer is required to post.

kupo1121 said:

This is also a great statement, sometimes it just is. I'll tell you for sure right now that if I had an auction and one bid was:

- Little Mermaid Stained Glass pin

vs.

- Beauty and the Beast Stained Glass pin
+
- Jessica as Cat Burglar

I'd have such a hard time deciding because that'd be my grail versus my 2nd and 3rd most wanted pin of all time (not including Stitch Invasion Snow White pin since that would probably take the win no matter what it was up against seeing as it is the rarest pin I have on my wants list BY FAR)

However, you guys will have to eventually decide anyways if nobody bids more on it so the way I see it, why not figure it out early?

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True, at the end of the day someone will have to decide, but the ties aren't necessarily in 1st place. AND Someone can bid and outbid the tie put them all down a spot.
Like we said though, it's hard, but we're two people so we discuss why we like them or how they will fit in our collection so yes, one of us is going to cave and decide to go with the other, but at that moment we agreed that we're at a standstill. It doesn't mean, hey, add more pins but rather if things stand, the win could go to either one of you...

I personally dislike tied bids and I have seen some ties that I am preeeeetty sure were sketchy to say the least

docfish2u said:

I understand people thinking that the tie for first is a ploy to get the bid higher. Sometimes it is really hard to make a decision on really good bids. Sometimes your spouse likes one offer better and you like another one better and at the end you have to make a decision.

People need to remember one thing, nobody is forcing you to bid in the auction. Nobody is forcing you to up your bid if you are tied.

To me, if I am tied with somebody it lets me know I am right there and I can up the bid if I want or let it ride and take my chances.

For us it is what it is. If you like it, bid. If it bothers you, don't.

My opinion for what it is worth (I know, not much)

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+1

I just feel like you aren't hurting anyone by making them tied. I share trades/wants list with two other people so its hard to decide sometimes with different combinations of pins. I like not having to stress out about making a 100% final answer leaderboard right away. One auction that I tied two people it took me a few hours to honestly decide which one i liked better and I like having the freedom to do so. I would hate to have a leaderboard and have no ties and then when I'm announcing the winner think more decide I liked the second place persons bid more. Just because the rules said I couldn't tie anyone. That would just suck for the first place person.

the reality is that having a no tied for 1st rule is pointless. Why wouldn't the auctioneer(here you go tie bid pin bumpers I'm literally spoon feeding you the loopholes )
(Kupo just using you name for example)
They can simply put.

"Oh wow Kupo1121 and StoneColdBoo316 both great bids dang sorry I'm going to have to think about this before adding a leaderboard"
or
"(1hour before auction end)
LEADERBOARD
1.Kupo1121 with awesome 2013 hidden mickeys
2.Stonecoldboo316-with the 5 podms its so close!
3.SallySingleton-with princess rack pin"
Either A I go add to win or they dont give a leaderboard before closing and 2nd place someone wins after adding nothing new"

or
"
1.Kupo1121
2.Stonecoldboo316 -wow so close considering switching for first!
3.SallySingleton "

Having run many auctions and bid on just as many if not more. I like being able to use the tie. There are many times I look at an auction I am running and I think oh I like bidder 1 best then look at it a couple of hours later and think mmm now I like bidder 2 best. The tie allows me to list them both in the lead and lets the people bidding know how close it is. It does NOT force anyone to bid more, that is the bidders choice. There has also been times when it was good for me to know I was tied so that if I wanted to bid just a little bit more I would have it hands down. I am going to bid or not bid what I want regardless of whether or not someone listed me in a TIE or not. If I really want a pin I may bid more or I may leave it to chance and think... if it was meant to be it will be. For people to say that the person auctioning something off is forcing people to bid more and more when they don't really have to is absurd in my opinion. The auctioneer is already aware that there pin is going to a new home. They have no choice. Even if the person bids something totally out of what the person is asking to be bid, I think if anything should change it should be that. The person running the auction should be able to deny a bid if it does not have anything to do with what they are looking for. If a person has stated no hidden mickeys they should be able to deny a bid of hidden mickey's if one is made. That is where I think the auctions are unfair not in whether or not someone lists the auction as a tie. If I list two in a tie but I am leaning one way I will list it that way so that the person that I am not leaning towards knows they are really close but I am leaning the other way. I do not see a problem with that.

I couldn't agree more with quite a few statements it can be a very difficult to decide sometimes especially when a dpf account is being shared or different Grails and most wanted pins are offered but there's also some great alternatives mentioned above me so hopefully more auctioneers consider those alternatives before a leaderboard is posted. I do post ties, and I do hate to do it because I know most people think that it means 'bid more' when we really mean 'we can't decide/ agree' lol but like others have said its all your choice!

PinHunters said:

Like we said though, it's hard, but we're two people so we discuss why we like them or how they will fit in our collection so yes, one of us is going to cave and decide to go with the other, but at that moment we agreed that we're at a standstill. It doesn't mean, hey, add more pins but rather if things stand, the win could go to either one of you...

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I always thought that maybe I'm of the opinion of not having ties because of 2 reasons:

1) I love ranking things, I'm a compulsive ranker if that's a term and when I do rank, I NEVER tie things...I just can't, I don't believe 2 things can be completely tied if you think about it for hours and hours and hours, one will come out on top UNLESS you are comparing 2 items which are nearly identical. With bids it's never like that.

2) I'm a lonely pin trader in my household haha I don't have to deal with opposing collections ^_^

However, in the end, I think it should be thought over a lot before the leaderboard is posted to avoid a tie. If you are going to decide after the auction ends, you could decide now before the auction ends...that's at least how I look at it ^_^

StoneColdBoo316 said:

snip

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YAY! Examples haha I was getting so confused with some of the things that I'm really glad there is an example

On the example though, I actually really like it and think it is much more fair than saying "they are tied." Here is why:

*In this circumstance, let's say that that nobody adds anything new just for sake of making things easy in this situation, though adding pins wouldn't really complicate it.

Given what we have, if nobody else added anything to their bids and the auction ended, I would know that since I was in first I would win the auction since I was placed as #1. If this was the last leaderboard, the auction ends and you are pronounced the winner, I can call that as unfair since I was given no reason to add more pins. However, given the same situation of me being in first place and you being in second, what if the leaderboard looked like this:

1. Kupo/StoneCold
2. Sally

And yet deep down the auctioneer couldn't decide but was leaning towards me and I have to add more pins to become first despite the fact that I was going to win all along, that almost seems unfair to me in this circumstance.

I know that deep down sometimes deciding who is first and second is really, really difficult because with some of these auctions, the bids are all grails for the most part haha However, in the end, I feel like having a tied first place can be related to shill bidding on Ebay.
Let me make it 100% clear that I am in no way saying that people who put people tied for first are as bad as people who shill bid on Ebay, let me explain ^_^

Okay, as I was saying, in both cases (shill and first place ties) the seller/auctioneer don't mind it but the bidders do. The reason being that the bidders don't know the true intentions of the auctioneer. While I'm sure most of the members on DPF are not of this mindset, we cannot prove that these "ties" aren't to get more pins out of those in first place (I am not accusing anyone, I really don't want this to turn into an argument, I love how civil it has been thus far). Likewise, we can't really prove if a seller is shill bidding on their auction. However, in both circumstances the actions can (not always because in both cases the person in first may give up) result in whoever is in first place having to put more out then they should have to get a pin which wasn't worth the amount it sold/completed the auction for.

That is my main problem with ties in that they may cause that. In the end, as StoneCold pointed out, no system is perfect, there are flaws in both, and as others have stated before, DPF has no rules on ties or really on leaderboards either lol so I feel like this topic is by no way forcing anyone to run auctions any certain way. However, this is just food for thought, that's all. I'm in no way saying people who have ties are evil or saying that they need to be implemented, this is all just brainstorming ideas ^_^

kupo1121 said:

Snip back lol

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But As much As I see how what youre saying Fair nothing stops from if an hour before they post leaderboard but although he put me second to get more from me I don't add anything even if I was offering what he ACTUALLY wanted and it ends without another leaderboard he can post declaring who was in 2nd place the winner and just say
"I changed my mind" you see what I'm saying? I personally dealt with some frustrating tied leaders so I see where the unfair feeling stems from.