Disney vs community

[-em]

So had an interesting conversation that I wanted more views on..

so anyone who knows pins knows how rampant scrappers/unauthorized/counterfeit however one chooses to describe them are on cast lanyards/boards etc. my rough estimation would be that 80-90% of pins on lanyards etc at any given time are courtesy of guests who traded their ebay lots..

That being said is it disneys 'responsibility' even though they have provided ample variety of 'trader pins' for sale to HAVE to pull the scrappers from each and every lanyard KNOWING each time they do the cycle will repeat itself endlessly, or since the 'pin community' has chosen to knowingly invest(sellers/buyers alike) in scrappers that 'they made their bed now have to lie in it' is you choose to buy cheap crappy pins so therefore don't be mad when all you find is the same everywhere? So until the community itself takes a stand against scrappers Disney doesn't have to..

I know now in an ideal world Disney should 'bend over' and make sure every guest only gets 100% legitimate pins even when the guest is giving fake crap they paid pennies for but that's not good business sense at all...

thoughts-

-em

 

[pinbum]

News Flash this just out Scrapper seller gets 8 years.I saw this on the news yesterday...3rd strike your out scrapper man...

 

[Abyssinian28]

Shrug. It's almost a pointless puzzle. Understanding that's there's pretty much no way to end scrappers (with the possible exception of having them made here in factories, and even then, a few bad employees could smuggle them out), then the question is (as you've put it)...does Disney eat the scrappers, or do we?

Disney is never going to eat that much profit. They would get rid of lanyard trading before they would eat all those incoming pins.

The real way for Disney to control the situation would be to get ebay to stop selling them, but I assume they can't stop eBay from doing so, or they would have already. And as much as I would love to see big scrapper lots shut down that way, I wouldn't want to lose eBay as a secondary market for individual retired pins.

If this is purely a hypothetical question of "who should", then Disney should. They're the business, it's their idea/system, they're presenting the product on a lanyard for a guest, the things they're offering should be Disney pure. If the system is flawed, that's not the guests fault. Many of them don't know what they're even doing. In reality, though, it would be a logistical and financial nightmare for Disney to monitor. It's why I pretty much don't do lanyard trading unless I know what I see is authentic (freshly refreshed, a lanyard at an event with a AP/PP, etc).

As far as the community goes...the community is not an official entity- it's a loose gathering of individuals that share a hobby. We don't all agree or even have the same goals or interests. A body like that shouldn't or couldn't be responsible for monitoring or eliminating a problem like counterfeits (which is a larger problem with pretty much every product out there, not just pins). Especially when that problem starts at the company's place of business.

Pin trading would have been much easier to pull off in the pre-internet days...at least, when it comes to scrappers and lanyard trading at Parks.

 

[hopemax]

I wish that at least there was uniformity in "refreshing" availability. When my Mom worked in the Emporium, there was a window she could visit daily. In upper Frontierland, it was basically never, and a Mickey's Gift Station they had a drawer but the refresh of the drawer was infrequent. The Resorts seem to be good. So if CMs who did care had better access in some places it would be nice.

 

[speedwaystar1]

I think Abyssinian summed it up pretty well
The only thing I would add is that even if they were made in the US the scrappers would still be an issue , it's not particularly difficult to get counterfeits made in Asia from the designs (reverse engineering) , you just might shift the focus from cheap HM pins to the more expensive LE pins , and no one wants that .

 

[Abyssinian28]

I think Abyssinian summed it up pretty well
The only thing I would add is that even if they were made in the US the scrappers would still be an issue , it's not particularly difficult to get counterfeits made in Asia from the designs (reverse engineering) , you just might shift the focus from cheap HM pins to the more expensive LE pins , and no one wants that .

Yeah, I had considered that, too. It's just a *slightly* harder process than just grabbing the bags full of scrappers and walking out the door with them. :lol:

Disney has really created a unique counterfeiting situation with trading...it's one of the only hobbies where you're giving product BACK to the company (or, if you're the next guest who comes along, them), so they're getting some of the counterfeits back themselves. Weird.

 

[minniemeg]

The way I look at it-is pins that I swap with CMs are usually HM and I just assume that they are going to be scrappers and they just go in my keeper collections.

Pins that I trade with other traders are pins that I have bought at the parks so I know that they are legit.

But honestly the scrapper in my HM collection really don't bother me at all.

 

[Purplemandms]

I've been meaning to tell this story for awhile, but keep forgetting to.

So I was in the library last semester, and I brought some of my pins to trade with a friend who I had just discovered was also into pins. After we finished trading, we did some calculus studying, and while I was going through a problem, a couple girls come up to me and ask if I can help them with a pre-calc problem. So I did, and afterwords one of the girls asked if we were into pin trading. I told her yes, and she said that she was part of the DCP and worked as a CM for a year, and then proceeded to tell me, and I quote:

"You know you can just go ahead and buy a bag of like 100 online for really cheap. They're not technically real pins, but no one cares."

And I was floored. Like, I certainly care. Six year old me, who just started trading, would care. Eighteen year old me, who was reviewing her collection (after joining this forum) and found out that about a quarter of her pins were fakes REALLY CARED. And even now, half of my pins are marked with a "snapper warning", so they're as good as useless now. I haven't even told my parents, who invested all that money in those rack pins I squandered away at the parks.

Now I understand that what that former CM said isn't reflective of all cast members. Nor do I think that this is even reflective of even a fraction of cast members. However, I do think that the experience kinda emphasized that Disney is in this for the money. If the scrapper sellers on eBay can hook people on pin trading in the parks, where they will by the more expensive rack pins while on vacation, then actually the scrapper sellers might be inadvertently making money for Disney. And it just makes me sad. But I do agree with Abyssinian when they said:

They would get rid of lanyard trading before they would eat all those incoming pins.

And I would rather have to deal with the scrappers than have no pin trading at all. One thing about pin trading when I was younger is that I truly appreciated it as a hobby, and I had a lot of fun with every pin I traded for, even it turned out being a scrapper. If I saw a pin I wanted, they gave it to me. And that made me happy. Now that I'm older of course, I'm kicking myself in the face, but the cast members were doing their jobs in circulating the pins. It was about making that moment magical, and they did.

I do think that scrappers will vanish any time soon, but what we can do it educate the public about these pins. Education is the best means of reform, and if we continue lobbying for the boycott of scrappers within the community, I think that will be the fastest and most efficient way to reduce their presence in the parks. Will it get rid of scrappers entirely? Of course not. Will some jerks still buy them, knowing full well they are scrappers, and trade them? Duh. But using our efforts to educate the fraction of the community who will listen to the message "SCRAPPERS ARE BAD" will have a much greater affect then pestering the Disney company ever will, in my opinion.

Eesh sorry for the long post. ;-;

 

[Rvaya]

@purplemandms: Thanks for sharing the story!

Scrappers/Fakes, they are all the same to me. If the pin has a warning I try not to even add it to my wants. If I can't see the trade in person for a pin with a warning I don't want to do the trade 99% of the time.

When talking to the CMs at DLP the guys at the pueblo trading post try hard to be vigilant but I've seen fakes on the board. I've often wished they would make the CMs more responsible for what's on their lanyards. But as it was said they are never gonna eat that money.
Aside from finding a way to shut them down and education I don't see a real solution.
I've heard CMs say they've been told to make a trade even if it was a fake because the visitor was making such a big deal. And if the visitor honestly doesn't know about the real issue then I can understand their frustration too.

Maybe even more education in the park in the manor of pamphlets near pin trading locations telling people what to look for? But then that's just money they eat making the pamphlets.

I think serious traders all got tricked with their first trades. Those who have just done it a couple times probably don't dig at all to see what they actually have and why.

 

[PinFanatic]

The way I see it is that scrappers are not going to go away any time soon. When we get traded pins by Guests we HAVE to take the pin offered as long as it is a Disney pin. We cannot say no to a Guest simply because we believe the pin may be a scrapper. This has only fed the frenzy of people going to eBay and purchasing large lots of pins for pennies on the dollar. To my knowledge Disney has never released a "how to" guide on spotting and identifying scrappers, and probably never will. The logistics of having Cast Members analyze each pin at each pin trade would be exceptionally hard to put in place, as it would, among other things, increase frustration among Guests. The majority of Guests would not be happy with a Cast Member telling them that they cannot take their pin because of it possibly being a scrapper, and most would be offended that a Cast Member is analyzing a pin the Guest offered up in trade. It is a two-edged sword that Disney cannot make everyone happy when it comes to pin trading, and that is worst part of it.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Maybe even more education in the park in the manor of pamphlets near pin trading locations telling people what to look for? But then that's just money they eat making the pamphlets.

I don't think Disney will go the education route either. Pamphlets in the park? How would you like to bring your kids to the park with a bag full of pins from eBay and then pick up a pamphlet that basically says "you are a problem here"? I think for me that would put a sour mark on my entire vacation.

I really think the only way Disney can alleviate the scrapper issue is what they're doing now behind the scenes: litigating against the big counterfeiters and not dealing with factories in China that "betray" them.

They could also destroy all scrappers from lanyards every night, but I don't believe it's simply a profit issue for them. Consider this...

Disney designed CM pin-trading with the assumption of a set inflow and outflow each day. Every day, X new HMs are added to CM lanyards, and every day and average of Y trades are made with CMs. Guests want these HMs and the only way to get them is to trade a pin to the CM in exchange. Many repeat guests bring pins from their last trip but pins are still bought (booster sets etc.) to trade with CMs. It would seem that Disney would make far more profit if they tried to maximize Z, the number of pins bought in the parks to trade with CMs. A pin bought on eBay is a pin never bought off the rack in the parks, so they're definitely losing a lot of sales because of the scrapper issue.

Stopping scrappers before they enter the parks would generate the most profit for Disney, and indeed that's what they're trying to do. Most of us think they either aren't doing a very good job, or aren't doing enough, but who are we to know what goes on behind the scenes at corporate?

However, a lot of people think the best idea would be to destroy scrappers from CM lanyards at the end of every day. This would create a feedback loop. The number of trades Y in the parks wouldn't change much, but Disney would need a larger and larger supply of legit pins X as scrappers flowed in. It would actually increase the desirability of eBay scrapper lots because CM lanyard refreshes would always be 100% good pins. This would bring in yet more scrappers into the park, requiring more legit pins to compensate until X is pretty much equal to Y. That's like Disney giving away Y pins every day. An insanely expensive situation.

So I believe the choice here is between losing a lot of money while keeping the scrapper situation contained, and losing an incredible amount of money while scrapper sales explode. Disney can't implement a policy of destroying scrappers off CM lanyards. It would only cause the scrapper market to grow.

 

[Purplemandms]

However, a lot of people think the best idea would be to destroy scrappers from CM lanyards at the end of every day. This would create a feedback loop. The number of trades Y in the parks wouldn't change much, but Disney would need a larger and larger supply of legit pins X as scrappers flowed in. It would actually increase the desirability of eBay scrapper lots because CM lanyard refreshes would always be 100% good pins. This would bring in yet more scrappers into the park, requiring more legit pins to compensate until X is pretty much equal to Y. That's like Disney giving away Y pins every day. An insanely expensive situation.

So I believe the choice here is between losing a lot of money while keeping the scrapper situation contained, and losing an incredible amount of money while scrapper sales explode. Disney can't implement a policy of destroying scrappers off CM lanyards. It would only cause the scrapper market to grow.

This is a very interesting and valid point. But it only makes me further wonder that if Disney is actually able to go in and shut down scrapper production, how many potential future traders will they use? It's much easier to get a person hooked on trading with a bag of cheap pins than have them use the starter or booster packs in the parks. If scrapper production were to cease, would Y decrease? Without scrappers, how many new families or individuals actually come into trading?

I suppose that a conspiracy theory (just a conspiracy theory, this argument has little grounds,) would be that Disney allows a certain amount of scrapper production in order to get people hooked on trading in the parks, where they then buy the more expensive pins/get hooked/wait in line for the releases/go to PTNs etc.

Without the existence of scrappers, and their cheap price, would Disney loose potential customers on pins? Disney's own "starter packs" are pretty expensive. For one starter pack at WDW (which contains about four pins) you could probably buy close to 50 scrappers, or maybe even more. How many people would even begin the hobby if they new how expensive it can actually be? Now obviously a quick solution for this would be to lower the price of starter packs, but I don't think that Disney would ever be able to compete with the absurd cheapness of the pins, because at least the starter packs have some amount of quality to them. But it is an interesting idea.

 

[markheardjr]

I like how France does it. The CM's can say "No" if it's fake. They like to chose and they are selective. Also there is a board for Rack & LE pin trading 1 for 1. I'd like to see more rack & LE lanyards on CM's where you must trade those. I know there are fake rack & LE pins too, but its not as bad as the scrappers hidden mickey and cheap mystery pack pins. And the rack pins are larger so it's easier to identify fakes. Or at least if feels like your fake rack pin is worth the $5-$14 dollars you shelled out for your non-HM pin. They can do a vinylmation pin only lanyard while they are at it since 99% of those are fake anyways.

I kind of think Disney should just scrap HM's all together, but obviously it is a major starting point for tons of pin buyers. The pins are extremely cheap to make and easy to store on walls so they are making hand over fist. There is no incentive for them to cancel them or try to stop scrappers. They aren't interested in selling $3 entry point pins to people.

I'd be very interested to see the actual ordered edition sizes of hidden mickey's over the years. Has it increased or decreased? I'd bet Disney has cut the edition sizes in half for real pins and they just let the scrapper market take over to get new consumers hooked.

 

[PinFanatic]

I'd be very interested to see the actual ordered edition sizes of hidden mickey's over the years. Has it increased or decreased? I'd bet Disney has cut the edition sizes in half for real pins and they just let the scrapper market take over to get new consumers hooked.

I can tell you that at my location we received a shipment of 4,500 of the new Hidden Mickey Wave A pins. These are meant to last quite a while and we usually will get a second shipment of 3,000 about half way through to when the next Wave is normally released. This year, however, with the delay in shipping the new HM pins I am not betting on getting a second shipment. Keep in mind, also, that I also have to supply the new HM pins to the Front Desk, Custodial, Engineering and Recreation. While not many of the Cast Members in those lines of business wear lanyards (particularly Custodial and Engineering which are mostly for the leaders to wear), it does cut into the supply I have for my Merchandise Cast Members. I would say of the 7,500 or so pins we normally get about 6,000 actually go to the Merchandise Cast at my location.

 

[LuvSimba]

I don't blame Disney for the fake fiasco. I put 80% of the blame on pin traders. Everyone looking to get something for nothing. I don't care who anyone is, if you know you're getting an item that normally costs $7-9 each for $.25 each, there is something wrong. Ignorance is no excuse. I don't care what the item is. If it's that cheap, it's not real. Anyone want a brand new Coach purse, with tags for $25....

The pin hobby was going strong before fakes entered the market, so I doubt Disney is happy about the whole fake thing. And I highly doubt that people purchasing fakes, buy real pins. Most are looking to 'trade up'. Either to trade to other collectors, for their collection or to sell.

I spend a couple days a week at WDW, mostly enjoying the parks, but I do a lot of observing. Since there aren't a lot of decent pins on the CM lanyards, I have taken up the 'hobby' of watching pin traders, up close and personal. 9 times out of 10 and that's being kind, the trader will give a CM a fake. Sometimes, without even taking it out of the little baggie it came in, from China. These people have a huge bag full of those nasty critters. These people are, regulars (locals or people who are regular pin traders and come to the parks several times a year), down to families on a vacation.

One guy, not to long ago, wanted to trade with me (I keep a nice, simple selection on my lanyard, rack pins, pwp and authentic boosters). So, we walked to an ice cream cart, that was not in use at the time, so he could 'dig out' his pins. In his soft sided cooler, when he unzipped it, I saw a half gallon bag FULL of fakes. He tried to hide them, but I saw them. Under that big bag of fakes, were a few real pins for trade. He pulled out his cardboard of pins, nothing more than the same things I had, but all obtained from trading fakes for authentic pins. I wouldn't trade him after seeing the huge bag of fakes.

And I can't tell you how many times people have all but mowed other guests down to trade with me, thinking I was a CM. All because I have real pins on my lanyard. Or because they think I am 'new meat'...lol I like that term, that someone else here coined.

Disney has taken baby steps to try and keep the counterfeiters from copying the new hm (by not releasing photos or information until almost release date), and by adding the serial numbers to rack, booster and LEs. Tho, I'm sure the counterfeiters don't care, people keep buying that crap day, after day, after day....

And for those that think it's OK to steal from Disney, knowingly buying and trading fake pins for real ones, you are committing a crime! You are the problem.

 

[Rvaya]

How does this serial numbers thing work?
I got a pin in the mail once that after looking it over I wasn't so sure it was real and it on the back has a serial number. I had to that point never seen these numbers on any pins.
Is there a way to check your serial number somewhere to make sure it's real? That would be awesome. To me since I hadn't seen it before it made me think it was fake. But more and more I see newer pins or mystery packs pins that have these too.

 

[LuvSimba]

I don't believe there is anyway to check the validity of a serial number. I don't know if pinpics adds the # to their data base listings or not (their information is vague, at best). The ink looking #s have changed on different runs of pins (same image tho). Can't tell you if they change on the embossed styles. I don't know if the counterfeiters would bother with serial numbers or not, just an added headache, imho. They want to 'make' pins as cheaply as possible. Adding something else, weather embossed or stamped on, would add to the cost of production.

 

[markheardjr]

And I highly doubt that people purchasing fakes, buy real pins. Most are looking to 'trade up'. Either to trade to other collectors, for their collection or to sell.

Here is where you are wrong. I would be willing to bet that most people started on hidden mickeys and bought a lot on eBay. Then they found out from CM's or other traders that their HM's are fake and they can only trade with CM's with that junk. The people want a LE or LR from a trader so they start buying LE's & LR's at the parks and other places. But it usually starts with hidden mickeys and the scrapper veil is lifted.

 

[hopemax]

The pin hobby was going strong before fakes entered the market, so I doubt Disney is happy about the whole fake thing. And I highly doubt that people purchasing fakes, buy real pins. Most are looking to 'trade up'. Either to trade to other collectors, for their collection or to sell.

I think I disagree with this too. I think people buy the fakes, launder for real pins, then maybe trade some, but mostly sell them...then they take the money they make from that to finance their purchases of real pins. Especially, LE/mystery boxes...which some they keep, but also sell.

 

[Lavendersunrise]

My husband and I took our 4 month old son to Disney in Sept (2014). We decided we wanted a collection for him, so we started trading. We bought 600 dollars worth of pins to trade. We had NO clue that the pins on cast members lanyards were junk.

I was very disappointed in the entire process. I totally understand why parents would buy Ebay pins and just trade them out. Buying real disney pins for trading is a horrible investment.

That being said, I think trading scrappers is wrong, but honestly, if my son (when he is older) wanted to start pin trading...I would be very torn. How can anyone justify spending money on real pins when Disney can't police their lanyards? If Disney is willingly giving me crap, why can't I give them crap?

 

[LuvSimba]

Here is where you are wrong. I would be willing to bet that most people started on hidden mickeys and bought a lot on eBay. Then they found out from CM's or other traders that their HM's are fake and they can only trade with CM's with that junk. The people want a LE or LR from a trader so they start buying LE's & LR's at the parks and other places. But it usually starts with hidden mickeys and the scrapper veil is lifted.

I don't think I'm wrong, since I do a lot of observing in the parks, again on a regular basis (maybe it's different in CA, I don't know, I just know when I was at DL/DCA, they had the same junk WDW does on it's lanyards). I see the same faces at WDW, over and over and over, trading fakes for anything real. I see these same people selling on FB or trading at PTN. Where the money goes after that, I don't know. But I see equal amounts of families with fakes trading for anything, they don't seem the least bit interested in buying anything, even if I mention to them there are real pins to be purchased at the outlets for a discounted price. They usually say they just wanted something cheap for the kids to do. How many of those types actually go on to become a real pin trader is hard to say....

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Quote Originally Posted by LuvSimba View Post


LuvSimba: The pin hobby was going strong before fakes entered the market, so I doubt Disney is happy about the whole fake thing. And I highly doubt that people purchasing fakes, buy real pins. Most are looking to 'trade up'. Either to trade to other collectors, for their collection or to sell.

hopemax: I think I disagree with this too. I think people buy the fakes, launder for real pins, then maybe trade some, but mostly sell them...then they take the money they make from that to finance their purchases of real pins. Especially, LE/mystery boxes...which some they keep, but also sell.
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Hopemax, isn't that what I said in my last sentence, in my original post. ie..laundering, 'trading up'? If they are doing this on a regular basis, which is why I mentioned it, and then buying real pins, they are still cheating the system and keep on doing so. Their pattern continues.

From the amount of 'traders' I see at the parks trading fakes, vs the ones that eventually make it here (or FB, IG, where ever) saying, oh, I'm new, didn't know better, or they are mad they bought fakes and then traded for fakes at the parks, are few and far between.

My statements are just based on my observations in every aspect of the hobby over the last decade in a half. I don't claim to know everything about the hobby, it's a constant learning process. Fakes/scrappers are just a huge pet peeve of mine.

 

[markheardjr]

I don't think I'm wrong, since I do a lot of observing in the parks, again on a regular basis (maybe it's different in CA, I don't know, I just know when I was at DL/DCA, they had the same junk WDW does on it's lanyards). I see the same faces at WDW, over and over and over, trading fakes for anything real. I see these same people selling on FB or trading at PTN. Where the money goes after that, I don't know. But I see equal amounts of families with fakes trading for anything, they don't seem the least bit interested in buying anything, even if I mention to them there are real pins to be purchased at the outlets for a discounted price. They usually say they just wanted something cheap for the kids to do. How many of those types actually go on to become a real pin trader is hard to say....

Disney doesn't care about the families that come with fakes and buy maybe 1 or 2 rack pins on their annual trip. They want to hook in the pin collectors like us that spend thousands of dollars a year once we get hooked in. To them, allowing the scrapper / HM stuff is a gateway to getting the collectors into pins. There are 2 kinds of pin people. Those families that only trade on their annual trip, maybe buy 1 or 2 pins. And then the collectors & annual passholders that come all the time.
The families you see in FL still have the little baggies with the individual pins wrapped. I think FL toursits tend to be more mid-westerners looking for the cheapest trip. Moms sit and try to find cheaper ways to vacation and buy lots. And yes, FL has sharks and people that trade scrappers for real pins and then sell it.
California tourists tend to spend a bit more money and buy rack pins, more higher end spenders, because it is more expensive to come here. The families that come often have lanyards with more rack pins. Yes, there are tons with the baggies, but I see it way less here than I saw in FL. The shark problem is even worse in CA than it is in FL though. CA is chock full of people looking to make extra money under the table. The parks are small and close together and it only takes a few people to run around and see every lanyard in both parks and all 3 hotels. You could to the whole thing in under 4 hours probably. I see the same plain clothes touristy looking people run around with their little crown royal bags of scrappers looking to offload.

 

[Rvaya]

My husband and I took our 4 month old son to Disney in Sept (2014). We decided we wanted a collection for him, so we started trading. We bought 600 dollars worth of pins to trade. We had NO clue that the pins on cast members lanyards were junk.

I was very disappointed in the entire process. I totally understand why parents would buy Ebay pins and just trade them out. Buying real disney pins for trading is a horrible investment.

That being said, I think trading scrappers is wrong, but honestly, if my son (when he is older) wanted to start pin trading...I would be very torn. How can anyone justify spending money on real pins when Disney can't police their lanyards? If Disney is willingly giving me crap, why can't I give them crap?

I think at that point if you're nervous about trading at parks especially with the lanyards on CMs I'd just invest in the pins that are focused in what you want to collect. So pick a favorite movie or character and start buying them from sellers that you can trust by looking at their previous sales, and with people like here on DPF who you can at least trust more than the average "stranger".

It took me a long time to be able to see the scrappers cause I didn't know exactly what to look for. I've learned a lot but especially for kids I'd just get them the exact pin that fits their collection and not think of buying pins that are just gonna be traders down the line possibly. It's too risky until they are old enough to really trade on their own and understand fully what they are doing.

If that helps at all n_n Just my thoughts.

Oh and just stay away from Hidden Mickey pins all around