At EPCOT today and

[erudolf]

Erudolf - You're literally comparing theft to profitable trading. I'm not sure that's the comparison you were trying to make, but yeah. Honestly, I think if someone is at a Disney park on vacation and is already paying hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars to be there, taking a -10 on a single pin isn't a huge problem. We can definitely agree to disagree, though.

Personally, I'm basing my opinion on my own perspective - if there's a pin I really want, I'll -10 for it. I'm relatively new to the hobby, and my budget for pin trading (and everything else in life right now! haha) is pretty small, but yeah. It's ten bucks.

I'm not comparing the two examples in order to say they are the same exactly. I am comparing them to show that the victims of a major crime in this instance are actually less impacted then the people taken advantage of at the trading able.

And you're right, if the people don't care that they are getting ripped off, then fine. And if you don't mind paying $10 for something you know you can get somewhere else for $4 just so you can have it right away, then that is fine too. But you are making an informed decision. Just the fact that you have found these boards and are posting puts you lightyears ahead of the average tourist in terms of pin knowledge. Many of them don't even learn about pins until on their vacation. They aren't seasoned collectors. They are defenseless animals that just stumbled into the lions den. Do we really want them getting taken advantage of on their first outing and getting a bad taste for the hobby right off the bat? Who goes to the most magical place on earth and expects to be swindled? Without new traders and collectors the hobby will die.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Blah. I was just working on a general pin book, and was thinking about going out to EPCOT. But I would really hate to be thought of as one of THOSE traders...

I mean, I pretty much only take pins that I consider normal priced (so I don't have to deal with the elevated value pins I have), and I would never shark anyone. I also don't deal with scrappers, since 98% of the pins in that bag were purchased by me from Disney directly.

BUT...I would be asking for purchases from the store, since I'm looking for some specific new releases.

Meh.

 

[RIDisneyPinGuy]

[video=youtube;XSyu3HpvI5s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSyu3HpvI5s[/video]

 

[MaeBlum08]

If I were a tourist who spent $100+ on pins that I got home and started researching because I really got into pins on vacation to find that I could have gotten them for $15, I would be on fire. I probably would write letters and emails to Disney also; I guarantee that is what is happening. People get home and realize that their vacation was NOT as magical as they thought and they were taken advantage of by people who Disney has allowed to trade on their property. Bottom line: Disney is responsible for what happens on their property and when people find out what is actually happening, Disney loses business in the long run. Do they need the pin sales or the family of four to buy the tickets, food, other toys, and stay in the hotels for a week at a time?

 

[walrus]

my biggest problem is the Sharks I see at the tables now have all counterfeit Hm pins.
not most or some but all. they are paying pennies for crap and making money on the hobby.
there is one trader I have seen almost every trip, sometimes hes in a wheelchair, sometimes not, he steals handsful of pins (I have told cast members)
rips people off and such. and hes not been banned for life from property? what is up with that?
I tell people trading that they should get way more for their pins especially when I saw them trading the hidden vinylmations for one counterfeit HM

I got told I was an a----le I responded with, at least I trade real pins, oh and fair trades.
she stammered at me and I told every single person who started trades and went to buy that they were getting ripped off
the shark swam away.
wish they all would.
also as a side note, I have offered trades for purchased pins,
I gave 20 HM pins, for a 45 $ set of nightmare pins.

 

[Abyssinian28]

If I were a tourist who spent $100+ on pins that I got home and started researching because I really got into pins on vacation to find that I could have gotten them for $15, I would be on fire. I probably would write letters and emails to Disney also; I guarantee that is what is happening. People get home and realize that their vacation was NOT as magical as they thought and they were taken advantage of by people who Disney has allowed to trade on their property. Bottom line: Disney is responsible for what happens on their property and when people find out what is actually happening, Disney loses business in the long run. Do they need the pin sales or the family of four to buy the tickets, food, other toys, and stay in the hotels for a week at a time?

Well, on top of that, they wouldn't really even lose the pin sale.

I think those of us in the "community" forget...we're a small portion of overall pin sales. It's true that we're an *important* small part, because we're repeat buyers and we're big ticket buyers. But still, a lot of tourists think that "Pin Trading" is what you do with cast members on lanyards. They might only buy once, but they usually buy a lot, and at full price (most of us know better by now *coughoutletscough*). And, in the end, they overwhelm us with sheer numbers.

Honestly, if I were a Disney executive, I would yank the tables and leave trading for the lanyards and PTNs. MAYBE set up a small section in the parks for an hour of trading a day (sort of like what they do at World of Disney).

 

[wdwjuan]

Honestly, if I were a Disney executive, I would yank the tables and leave trading for the lanyards and PTNs. MAYBE set up a small section in the parks for an hour of trading a day (sort of like what they do at World of Disney).

I agree!

I would like to see them move pin trading to a location to an area away from the stores like how people trade at the Plaza away from the stores at DLR.

 

[thejessta]

I would like to see them move pin trading to a location to an area away from the stores

I like that idea!

 

[Gloomy]

I would like to see them move pin trading to a location to an area away from the stores like how people trade at the Plaza away from the stores at DLR.

I'm not sure what this would really accomplish. To me, this just seems like it would put predatory traders even further from the reach of a supervising cast member. If someone's willing to drop $100 on pins, they're probably willing to walk a bit to get to / from the retail location as well. In this case, there's just no one for the retail-working CM to find and then hurl threats at, because now they're on the opposite side of the park. It seems like a step in the opposite direction of where this should probably go. Just my opinion.

I think those of us in the "community" forget...we're a small portion of overall pin sales. It's true that we're an *important* small part, because we're repeat buyers and we're big ticket buyers. But still, a lot of tourists think that "Pin Trading" is what you do with cast members on lanyards. They might only buy once, but they usually buy a lot, and at full price (most of us know better by now *coughoutletscough*). And, in the end, they overwhelm us with sheer numbers.

Thing is, if they just sanctioned and monitored the practice of getting people to buy pins for immediate trading, we could be worth even more money to Disney than we are now, with no damage done to the newbie / casual pin buyers. There's nothing like having your customers doing your marketing for you, for free. Speaking from experience, it's totally awesome.

And honestly, I wouldn't underestimate the overall value of our demographic. As a newbie to this stuff, the sheer volume of pin products that people shell out $100+ for (retail) still shocks me. It's definitely wise for the more hardcore members of any hobby to realize they're a minority, but in this hobby? It's a minority that's worth a surprisingly big wad of cash.

Honestly, if I were a Disney executive, I would yank the tables and leave trading for the lanyards and PTNs. MAYBE set up a small section in the parks for an hour of trading a day (sort of like what they do at World of Disney).

If they went back to doing nightly PTN-style events, this seems viable. But right now, with DLR apparently getting one PTN every quarter or something, it would feel like a pretty big kick in the teeth. With everything that's been stripped from this hobby over the past five years, I don't think that continuing to remove support for pin trading, while lowering quality on pins (slipping DSF production quality / lame Disneystore.com design), and trying to bleed the hardcores a bit more (three-tiered rarity structure of 2011 PTN pins), is really the right way for them to go. I'm really surprised they've let it slip this far as-is.

-JD

 

[JAllenWood]

Just to shift gears, another thing that can help solve this problem is simply speaking up. Flat out, if you're watching someone mize 100 bucks off tourists over and over, ESPECIALLY if they're pretending to be someone's sick grandmother, just go ahead and ruin their business. Let the victim know before they make the trade, "Hey, you know that's not exactly a totally fair trade, value-wise, right?" If they don't seem to care, then that's fine. But you'd be surprised at how often someone will respond and ask "Really? What are [x items] worth?" and then change their decision appropriately. There's no law that says we as traders have to put up with that stuff, and the tourists can always return the pins (I think - correct me if I'm wrong on that bit).

-JD

Until Disney engages in more proactive policy-making regarding 'predatory trading' (as JD suggests), I think it falls on us traders and collectors to try and protect the integrity of the hobby from the real 'sharks' out there. I think what JD suggests here is exactly the proper thing that WE can do to combat their preying on the ill-informed collectors and traders. If you clearly see someone being taken advantage of, speak up and stop them. I love what walrus did! Kudos!

 

[Tiki]

Maybe it is just me, sitting back away from it all, But why in the world do people feel that Disney is obligated to set up tables for people to trade on Disney property in the first place? Personally I would prefer cast member lanyard trading only on any Disney property, Would get rid of ALL pin related BS that goes on every day at every park. Why should Disney make spots available when we all know first hand that sharks are just waiting for fresh bait to eat.

Once a month pin trading at off site locations, ie Paradise Pier hotel is more than fair.

 

[Tiki]

 

[jdl]

I can understand what everyone is saying, but as a fairly new trader I see both sides of it. If i'm looking for a pin to complete a set (usually a hidden mickey series) and someone has the pin I need. What's wrong with me getting the pin that person wants and trading it to him/her??? We both get something we are looking for...

 

[walrus]

Thanks Jallenwood. just too bad there is not someone like me there all the time.

To Tiki , I have been able to meet people from the old online forum at the tables. Also Ferret and I have made friends at the tables. So Having a spot where you are not filling tables in a dining area, depriving people from a place to sit and eat. or clogging some bench space somewhere is great. We live 3 hours out of Orlando and cannot make most PTN (or Lou Mongello meets) due to work schedules. So twice a year when we get the chance to spend a week at WDW its nice to have the trade tables at Epcot and know if nothing else we can put our books down and talk with people and maybe trade some pins.

to Jdl if you know what you are in for that's fine. I see huge amounts of counterfeits going out for real pins paid for with real cash. that's not fine
I own scrappers, fan made and outright counterfeit pins, I know what they are and valued them as such. These people on their vacations are not as versed as we online are, the Dirtbags taking advantage of this fact are just as bad as mail in gold buyers, Hotel Roadshow gold and antique buyers, and dirty politicians. Who likewise take advantage of people who are unaware of what they have.

I would gladly have it that the trading tables are nowhere close to a pin shop, or very large signs painted on the tables traders asking for pin purchased will be asked to leave. I would give up what I consider fair trades for purchased pins to keep the trading fun and fair for everyone.

 

[jdl]

Walrus,

I get what you are saying. I'm new to pin trading and until just recently I was unaware of counterfeit/bootleg pins. We have a very small collection (less than 150 pins) and during our recent trip to WDW, my daughter and I were looking for the Andy Warhol Hidden Mickey series. There were some traders hanging out at the Epcot Pin station and they had two pins that we were looking for. I didn't have any pins that they were looking for, so we ended up buying a Chip & Dale pin and doing a two for one trade. My daughter who is 8 was happy, so I was too... But with anything it's buyer beware. I can totally understand your desire for a "pure" trading experience.

 

[sahdrob]

I would like to say, when my son first got into pin trading, I was “afraid” of the traders at the tables with all their books. The reason being, I was not a knowledgeable person about “worth, value, ease of getting.” I did let him look at the pins, and some were polite, some were snooty, but there was one lady that was very friendly with us and helped a lot. We had only looked at others bags and boards, had seen pins he wanted. As a new trader he only had pins that we had purchased at the park/traded for, nothing of “value”. She had one of the pins he wanted to complete his monorail set, hidden Mickey’s, and asked what he had in his bag (the small one). She looked them over, me knowing I had seen almost everything he had in her collection, and picked one I know she had (boo) so he could finish his set. I remember her for doing that for my son and making it a good experience. After returning home and doing research I fount us very lucky to have meet her and now I am a pin trader also. When we have returned to Disney, I have started finding the cast member that looks like they work the pin station a lot, and will ask them about the people there pin trading. They know the ones that are there making a living at it, ones that are wanting more than there pins are “worth”, and the ones that are there for the fun of it. The cast members can, and will tell you which ones to avoid. Just talk to them. It’s the best way to avoid the sharks.

 

[sahdrob]

BTW. Because of the experience my son had with that trader, my policy is. If it’s on my lanyard and a kid wants it, it’s theirs for whatever they want to give me in trade. It’s there to be traded anyway and I just might make someone’s trip.

 

[cheriexx]

If I was a pin trader with a massive collections in books, bags or folders, and I had a pin someone needed for their collection surely it would be no big deal to trade it for whatever was available? Chances are their collection is so huge, in a week's time they wouldn't remember how or where they got the pin, or that they even had it at all! Having the books out and saying "All these pins are for trade!" and then refusing to make an offered trade because someone doesn't have anything you fancy? Isn't that rude and against the spirit of our community?

These kinds of things make me nervous to trade in the parks and resorts! I'll stick to online trading for little while longer, rejection is much easier to brush off when you can just delete an email!

 

[broncobilly83]

I guess what I am not grasping throughout this discussion is why Disney potentially will make honest traders "suffer" with the removal of the tables, instead of putting their foot down and enforcing some legitimate rules to prevent these sharks from taking advantage of newer people. I mean, any business can refuse to do business with any customer, most times reasons do not even have to be given. If they are trying to make the hobby as inviting as possible to the widest range of park visitors, writing and enforcement of some basic rules to stop sharking should be at the top of their list instead of removing the tables

 

[Gloomy]

Bronco - Totally.

 

[erudolf]

They can write all the rules they want. It is enforcing them that is the problem. And what rules are they exactly supposed to write? The traders' pins are not their property. They can't control what trades they make and they certainly can't stand there and say "that's a fair trade" or "no, you can't do that, that isn't fair". Since "value" is objective then "fair" is also and if they were going to try and police trades they would be opening a whole host of problems, not to mention wasting a head count babysitting traders. People would start saying that the CM just didn't like them so they were ruining their trades, etc., etc. It just isn't feasible for Disney to enforce it. I think they have already arrived at the only possible solution which is to not have trading. Trading in the park and at DTD was a privlidge, some traders abused it, and now everyone will have to suffer the consequences.

 

[MaeBlum08]

They can write all the rules they want. It is enforcing them that is the problem. And what rules are they exactly supposed to write? The traders' pins are not their property. They can't control what trades they make and they certainly can't stand there and say "that's a fair trade" or "no, you can't do that, that isn't fair". Since "value" is objective then "fair" is also and if they were going to try and police trades they would be opening a whole host of problems, not to mention wasting a head count babysitting traders. People would start saying that the CM just didn't like them so they were ruining their trades, etc., etc. It just isn't feasible for Disney to enforce it. I think they have already arrived at the only possible solution which is to not have trading. Trading in the park and at DTD was a privilege, some traders abused it, and now everyone will have to suffer the consequences.

100% agree.

Tables are a privilege, not a right. If they have to be taken away to keep people from getting scammed then so be it.

 

[Gloomy]

I think I outlined which rules they should write in my previous post. I don't think enforcing them would be difficult. Yes, it would require a CM to supervise trading, but if it's a choice between spending some more money supporting the hobby to increase pin revenue, or taking something away (again) and losing pin revenue, I would hope Disney wouldn't continue their downward spiral of support for pin trading.

The first time somebody faking a disability to rip people off got booted from the park with their pass revoked, people would smarten up. All Disney needs to do is put in place a few simple policies, post a couple signs, and fire a warning shot. These aren't brave individuals we're talking about. I guarantee they'll scatter like pigeons for fear of losing their brisk business in the scrapper-funded sale of choice HM's / other stuff they pluck off lanyards.

-JD

 

[erudolf]

The first time somebody faking a disability to rip people off got booted from the park with their pass revoked, people would smarten up.
-JD

I can see the headlines now...."Disabled woman sues Disney for discrimination"..... Kicking people out isn't that simple. And I've seen some of these people and some of them are real a--holes. They would not back down and go quietly. The last thing Disney wants is a big ordeal in front of their stores.

And honestly, I don't think the traders being outside the stores bring in enough revenue to make a difference. In fact, a case could be made that they hinder it. I've watched some tourist come by and they think it is flat out crazy how many pins some people have. And, some traders look like they literally rolled out of bed and went straight to trading. No shower, no change of clothes, nothing. In some cases it is an eyesore. Plus, if I were Disney I sure as heck wouldn't want people camped out in front of the store showing off all sorts of pins that the people can't buy in the store. You really don't want your customers looking at the merchandise saying, "gee, these aren't as cool as the ones in the books we saw outside..."

 

[wdwjuan]

So I might be trading at Epcot tomorrow afternoon. I'll be making some great deals, so stop by if you are in the area!
I'll be anti-sharking.