Need everyone's opinion about what to do

[broncobilly83]

This is something I really did not want to post about, but I think I have gotten to a point of no return in the situation and need some input from other pin collectors here

Last year, I started helping out another pin collector by getting them items from the parks and DS.com and sending them overseas, and in return, they would send me things I asked for that were not readily accessible to me

Things were going well for a while, and then starting in December, they started getting a little hinky:

I was sent a package worth roughly $460 USD, and in turn I sent them 2 packages worth $335 USD. Now a difference in value was nothing bad usually since it usually balanced out in the end. But once 2012 started, the difference shifted greatly

Between the months of January and March, I was sent one more package worth $137 USD, and I sent 3 packages (1 January, 2 March) valuing $670 USD and I was still being asked for new releases, such as the Tangled POMH, which I have since acquired but not sent. I had to keep chasing the person via e-mail for some type of response, sometimes going 2 weeks without any response, but I see them log in here and sometimes post.

Since December, they have sent me items totaling $597 USD (the number they gave to me was 480 Euro) and I have sent them items worth $1005 USD. That is a difference of $408 USD and when I ask about the pins I asked for, I never got any responses, until I finally got a response that they "stopped a long time ago getting the ones I asked for". When I pointed out to them that I have more items for them that I have already paid for in addition to the difference I was owed; and that I needed them to send me stuff I had asked for, I was told I was only "owed" about $125 USD worth. When I pointed out why I thought the math was incorrect, I got no response, over and over, and now I was told

Stop...................... nothing more i prefer to stop now

Meanwhile I am sitting on over $200 USD worth of items I got for them, including POMHs and Vinylmations and I do not know what to do at this point. I would like to think this is a simple miscommunication and can be resolved, but I feel like I am being used and forgotten

HELP! :soapbox:

 

[erudolf]

I don't think letting trades like that to continue for a long period of time is ever a good idea, even if it were between friends. You never know what the other person is thinking. They could be thinking you are even and you could be thinking you are owed or vice versa. Plus, values change over time. So, if you wait too long to settle up the values could change drastically and someone could end up feeling hurt or cheated in the end. It is ok to have an arrangement of "you get me stuff and I'll get you stuff" but it is wise to work out actual mini trades and agreements periodically so that everyone is on the same page. So, that's for future advice.

For now, I'd contact them one more time laying out exactly why you feel you are owed and then propose a fair solution. They may have stopped getting you the pins you wanted, but tell them you would accept "this, this, that, and one of those" as a settlement and then you can be done with each other.

Ultimately, if the person refuses to work with you there really isn't anything you can do because there was no agreement set in stone. I think the only thing you could do at that point is leave negative feedback.

Good luck!

 

[broncobilly83]

For now, I'd contact them one more time laying out exactly why you feel you are owed and then propose a fair solution. They may have stopped getting you the pins you wanted, but tell them you would accept "this, this, that, and one of those" as a settlement and then you can be done with each other.

Ultimately, if the person refuses to work with you there really isn't anything you can do because there was no agreement set in stone. I think the only thing you could do at that point is leave negative feedback.

Good luck!

Thanks for the ideas.

They had posted a list of things they were looking to trade recently, so I asked what was left, and when I asked for specific things out of what was left, this is when I got hit with "I only owe you about $125 USD", as I asked for about $180-$190 worth of stuff

As for feedback, I am hesitant, as if this is just a misunderstanding, then I want to try and avoid hurting their reputation. That is why I posted the situation in the hopes of someone thinking of something I might not have thought of.

 

[erudolf]

Maybe you could agree on getting a third party to independently value the pins and help settle how much exactly is owed???

 

[Bellecat22]

As we all know, sometimes life gets in the way of hobbies, but when that amount of money is involved I would be a little uneasy. Ask this trader to talk to you via, IM, Facebook, PM something so you can have a conversation. Sometimes the details get lost in an email. Then if you don't get the answers you are looking for, cut your losses and sell/trade what you have for them and don't look back.

 

[broncobilly83]

Maybe you could agree on getting a third party to independently value the pins and help settle how much exactly is owed???

We had always quoted prices based on what it cost to get, like if I got a Vinylmation off of DS.com for them, it was the price, plus tax, and shipping if applicable. If they got me something from a show, it was the cost of the pin from a show, etc. That is why, like with the Tangled POMHs, I was going to ask value wise exactly what it cost me to get for them, not the current going rate. I thought we were both trying to be fair doing it that way

As we all know, sometimes life gets in the way of hobbies, but when that amount of money is involved I would be a little uneasy. Ask this trader to talk to you via, IM, Facebook, PM something so you can have a conversation. Sometimes the details get lost in an email. Then if you don't get the answers you are looking for, cut your losses and sell/trade what you have for them and don't look back.

I completely understand that, and that was their reason for not e-mailing me for almost 2 weeks, but then when I see them post here, and I am left hanging, that feels like they are avoiding a bad situation. I have tried PMing here, and I do not do Facebook. I prefer e-mail as it keeps track everything that is said, which helps to reference previous items, etc.

 

[C.Fr3dricks3n]

I would not have gone as far as it did money wise but I would make a trade as if nothing was wrong and what would be sent me would be the value of what was owed but not send theirs. Just me opinion as they sound like they knew what they were doing?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[broncobilly83]

I would not have gone as far as it did money wise but I would make a trade as if nothing was wrong and what would be sent me would be the value of what was owed but not send theirs. Just me opinion as they sound like they knew what they were doing?

Normally I would not either, as my package to them in January made us about even, and then it was the 2 in March that put me that far ahead. I thought a package would be en route to me March-April, but when nothing, and then I kept asking over and over, that is what got me going on all this.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Sounds like they're ducking and hiding.

The broken English in the replies...are they French? I would maybe look for a fellow pin trader that is fluent in French, and see if they'd be willing to intervene on your behalf. That helps to make sure it's not a communication issue, and it also helps to put additional pressure on them.

Unfortunately, they sound "over" it, and since they're in the plus, they can justify it to themselves that it was just too much of a hassle and quit out, when really, they're just taking you for a ride. They might not have set out to do so originally, but maybe they just saw it as a plus. It's possible they also ran out of money to buy your stuff, and they just didn't want to tell you so they could get their stuff...

You could always threaten to send a "friend" to their house, since you have their address. Heh.

I dunno, man- the only other thing I'd say is ask them how they came to the $100+ in owed money. Ask them to lay it out for you. But my guess is that they'll just clam up like they have been.

 

[Merryweather]

First of all, I am so very sorry that you found yourself in this situation. A friend of mine used to say "The way to hell is paved with good intentions" So, I do not doubt that both of you started it with good intentions, but things must have changed for him somewhere along the way.

My guess is that he stopped keeping precise accounts and when he realized how much ahead you were in pin-funds he felt uncomfortable and started maybe denying.

If your agreement was made via DPF, maybe the mods can help you to communicate with the other party. To get him to see your side and your math, he has to be open to communicate in the first place - which sadly he is not for the time being.

I know who he is from previous clues and our PMs, and I know how you went after the pins this person wanted. I sincerely hope that you can work it out. If things do not work, it will be a big ouch!, but all you can do is to cut your losses and move on. Best of luck.

 

[tinkerbelle1956]

sounds like the same person that took me for a ride and still waiting to ssettle up . I also lost money . I was buying POMP's and DSF pins . I told him I could no longer afford to do it any longer and he said, he found someone else that he had been dealing with . Now he has not been online .

 

[bjean]

Wow Broncobilly! I feel for you!! It does give a person pause to think that someone has deliberatly cheated you AND that they have also done it to others! There can lots of reasons as others have already mentioned; however, part of being "honorable" in the pin trading world is being honest! And keeping in touch with the other party is paramount! Given this, I truly believe that you are owed an explanation ... even if the end result is that he doesn't agree with your calculations, he owes you a response and his reasonings.

For several years I had a Belgium pin trader that I sent lots of pin packages to and he sent me lovely packages from Disneyland Paris! We became friends through our trades and he will always be someone I think and care about. I never kept track of the value of the pins as I was like you and had great trust in this pin trader. (And because I always wanted to be ahead of him, I sent more than he sent me ... but that was my choice to do so). Sadly we've lost touch; his health became an issue and he was no longer going to DLRP or events and wasn't able to continue sending me pins and things from DLRP. I sent him a final package (my choice to do so) in friendship ... I never heard from him again ... its been several years now since I've heard anything about him ... I hope and pray that he is well!! My package was not returned; however, the letters I sent a few months later were. I count myself very blessed to have had his friendship for the years that I did! I still miss him! Take care and I hope all works out well for you!! *bjr

 

[disneypirate]

Every transaction an individual enters into is essentially a business transaction that requires mutual trust and a lot of written agreements. However, it is easy to lose sight of this in pin trading because is tends to be more of a fun hobby so the written part is never undertaken. Over the years I have had pin trading agreements with people from Japan, England, WDW and France, and in every situation I encountered some sort of disagreement with the other person because of the monetary valuation of the pins exchanged. Working through these disagreements is made even more challenging because of different cultural values, language and exchange rates, not to mention edition sizes and the amount of time somebody has to wait in line for a pin. None of my relationships exist any longer having ended mainly because an agreement could not be reached, or because one party or the other couldn't get over the feelings of being cheated. At this point I would express to the individual that you do not feel the trade relationship is equal and that if he/she would like to continue to trade that you would appreciate it if they would bring the numbers back into equality before continuing.

Meanwhile, if you are sitting on PODM pins I don't think you should feel too bad. There are a whole lot of people on these boards who might like to talk to you about buying them.

 

[broncobilly83]

Thanks for the support and PMs everyone. I tried one more time to reach out to them this morning, and I have seen them online here this afternoon so either they did not see the e-mail, or they are ignoring. If that is the case, then I guess I will have to take it as a loss and I have learned my lesson

The funny thing is, I have asked over and over "If my math is wrong, please explain why?" and I never got a response. I went by their number as to how much they sent, and the numbers I quoted were real easy to research since it is MSRP on almost every pin/vinylmation.

 

[tinkerbelle1956]

alright, not the same member I dealt with then because he is in hiding . :lol: Ummmm, I take that back, he was on the forum this afternoon too .

 

[Disneydan]

I wasn't going to post.... But after I saw this article I had to share it:



FULLERTON An Anaheim man will spend a year in jail after pleading guilty to importing $2 million worth of counterfeit Disney pins from China that he and a co-conspirator planned to sell online as genuine collectibles.
Robert Edward Smyrak, 52, pleaded guilty Wednesday to felony manufacturing and sale of counterfeit goods, according to court records. In addition to jail time, Orange County Superior Court Judge Nicholas Thompson sentenced Smyrak to three years' probation and ordered him to pay restitution.
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Co-defendant Larry James Allred, 57, of Walnut, still faces trademark counterfeiting charges, as well as sentencing enhancements for two prior strike convictions for rape in 1975 and multiple kidnapping and rape convictions in 1978, said Orange County Deputy District Attorney Chuck Lawhorn. Allred is next scheduled in court Oct. 12. He remains in custody on $1 million bail.
The case was investigated by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Homeland Security Investigations and the Anaheim Police Department.
According to the District Attorney's Office, Smyrak – who worked at a computer company in Orange – and Allred sent legitimate pins to a manufacturer in China to be replicated and had the fake pins shipped back to them. Smyrak and Allred were accused of receiving approximately 80 shipments of counterfeit pins with an approximate value of $2 million.
In February, U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers and import specialists intercepted a parcel at Los Angeles International Airport addressed to Smyrak containing more than 150 pounds of counterfeit Disney pins. Smyrak and Allred were arrested April 14 by the Anaheim Police Department.
Smyrak's attorney, Skip Feild, told City News Service that many of the pins that were confiscated had been legitimately obtained by Smyrak, whom Field described as an avid Disney collector. Smyrak hired Allred to help him with the business, which they thought was legitimate, Feild said.
The attorney disputed prosecutors' allegations that the duo had sent pins to China to be duplicated. Instead, he said, Smyrak had responded to ads from shippers in China who sell at a discount pins advertised as the products of an overrun or slightly damaged.
“He's your typical person who loves Disney and Disney products,†Feild said. “It's not like he was selling these things out of a dark alley. He was selling them on eBay. He got them at a good price from China and was running a business and in comes ICE and the police saying it's all bad stuff.â€Â
Feild also doubts the pins were worth $2 million. “This stuff is junk metal,†Feild said. “A lot of the pins are like the freebie giveaways Disney offers at the cash registers on special occasions. With every good Disney story there's always a bit of fantasy and this is it.â€Â
Lawhorn, the prosecutor, said Smyrak admitted his role in the illegal scheme on videotape during an interview with authorities shortly after his arrest, and that his guilty plea Wednesday wasn't ambiguous.
Smyrak's ex-girlfriend, Cynthia Lynn Pratt Vedder, also was arrested in April and was charged in May with felony manufacturing and sale of counterfeit mark for being involved in a similar operation, District Attorney's Office spokeswoman Farrah Emami said. Vedder is due in court Monday for a pretrial hearing.
A hearing is scheduled for Nov. 16 to determine how much restitution Smyrak will owe Disney, Lawhorn said.
City News Service contributed to this report.

 

[broncobilly83]

Update - I heard back, and I do not think they are still understanding my point

They told me

You don't want to understand prices of things....!!!. I told you many many times, but you don't want to understand, prices are different when you buy a simple limited edition on a shop and go on a Pin Trading night or event buy the entrance, stay on line buy only one or two only...
When you ask me limited edition from Disneyland park, prices for prices i was completly agree, you too..... When i go to buy limited edition 600ex for you and trade for the original price, booth are agree...? You do the same for me, but for pin trading night, pin trading event it's not the same...!!!

They never said that until this chain of e-mails about PTN/PTE pins different prices, but I tried to point out again, that is not the point I am making. As they are reading this thread as well, maybe if I stress the point here again, they might understand it

They told me - We sent you 480 Euro worth of items - Their number to me in a recent e-mail

Until now for my side, i send you for 480 euros of pin's jumbo, pin trading night, limited edition, open edition ..... and i don't included the shipping......!!!!!

I told them - I sent you 810 Euro worth of items

That is a difference of 330 Euro or about $408 USD

I still do not see where they owe me 100 Euro worth based on the numbers they gave me?!?

 

[erudolf]

Update - I heard back, and I do not think they are still understanding my point

They told me


They never said that until this chain of e-mails about PTN/PTE pins different prices, but I tried to point out again, that is not the point I am making. As they are reading this thread as well, maybe if I stress the point here again, they might understand it

They told me - We sent you 480 Euro worth of items - Their number to me in a recent e-mail

I told them - I sent you 810 Euro worth of items

That is a difference of 330 Euro or about $408 USD

I still do not see where they owe me 100 Euro worth based on the numbers they gave me?!?

It seems to me that this person is trying to tack on any costs such as event entry fees or waiting in line relating to the PTN/PTE pins. Unless that was discussed up front I think that is bogus. For their entry fees not only did they get pins for themself but also got to partake in the other trading and activities there. I don't think it is fair to pass that cost along, especially considering that they probably would have been going regardless of your arrangement.

But that is just my guess at why the two of you aren't on the same page as far as pricing goes.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Yeah, it sounds like they're charging you for event entry fees and such.

You should get them to pay for Mickey's Circus for you to "even it up"...lol.

 

[markheardjr]

If I'm buying/trading with a friend or a "hook-up" at another park I trade/buy for at price. You can't start factoring in all the extra of you get problems like this. If I get a Tangled POMH pin, DSF Jessica, etc..., I expect something really good in return, or a future super hard-to-get pin in return. Once you try to add values in you can get these peaks and valleys of who owes what. Also, if it's say, DLRP vs. DLR, obviously the DLR trader will have more pins to choose from and therefore trade away. The DLRP person has few pins so they are most likely going to owe if they want most new releases.

I tend to shy away from these kinds of big multi swaps. I have one contact at WDW and we've had pretty good success lately with holding and trading for similar value pins but we always just look at the original cost. If a pin, like the Tangled PODM pin, Avengers, or now Brave, which ave a huge inflation prices on day 1, we probably won't look at swapping. I would entertain the request and see what I could do. As the relationship builds and trades continue I don't mind a lopsided one here or there if they really really want it. Karma is always nice to have on your good side!

 

[broncobilly83]

Final Agreement Reached

 

[caligirlUCR]

Glad to hear it! :0)