Pinpics Proposes Ebay Photo Use Ban

[kajtdd]

Please explain how you know that?

Because Lansam is a company, which to my knowledge has not filed to be a non-profit. Moreover, it has already announced it plans to charge for certain services.

Why does everybody seem to forget that their proposal is for "COMMERCAL" reasons and not for trading. I think it mostly means people who sell pins as a business, not any of us selling some extra traders here and there.

Whether or not you are trading or selling is irrelevent to the stated goals of making sure the person recieving the pin gets the one they "bargened" for. The policy as stated so far would include any person selling pins, even someone who does it occasionally and not at a "profit".

kajtdd

 

[kajtdd]

The key word is DONATE. Since when does donating something give you the right to dictate that is must be shared? If you donate a can of corn to a homeless shelter are you going to be outraged that they put it in chili rather than as a side because that is how you intended it to be used? This is just so petty to me and makes me want to quit more than anything LANSAM has done.

People place restrictions on their donations all the time. I can donate $1,000,000 to my college with the restriction it be used solely for the library or football fields. For many charities it is a common practice to make sure you get authorization that your donation either go into the general fund or earmarked for specific cause. There have been significant controvesies and congressionial investigations when people believe the money earmarked for a specific cause has not go to the specific cause but put to the general pool.

kajtdd

 

[Merryweather]

Except now Lansam is planning to make money off my personal work product on adding pins, descriptions and images to their Pin Pics database.

Because Lansam is a company, which to my knowledge has not filed to be a non-profit. Moreover, it has already announced it plans to charge for certain services.

Ok, going back to the original question: How do you know that their charged services will include YOUR previous contributions?

Maybe they will open a small shopping area on their site to raise funds. Maybe they will sell stuff for income. Maybe they would offer a fee based authentication service. Maybe they would organize and catalogue people's collections for them and charge for that. But these would not include any of YOUR pictures, descriptions, etc. whatever your precious contributions were.

 

[TiggerNut]

I have now moved from mild annoyance to disgust with this topic. This is just rediculous....people would honestly consider filing suit of pictures of pins....not even the pins themselves...PICTURES OF PINS!!! Unreal. Aren't there more important things in the world to be fighting for?

First off, maybe you don't feel as strongly as I do because I have been doing this for 12 years. But, it is about thousands of hours of my WORK that is being stolen. I value my time and do not want to repeat those efforts -when what is being done is against the stated policy when the pictures were provided.

As an aside, my Ebay business was started when I couldn't afford pins and was in school. My ebay business continues so I can take law cases for under privledged clients who would not be able to afford representation, if I didn't have another souce of income.

This effects my business and by default effects the lives of others, along with other friends who sell pins. This wouldn't be an issue if Pinpics left it alone. But instead, among their other nefarious efforts, they have decided to change something that doesn't need to be changed; and further they do not have the RIGHT to change it. If they try, they will be sued.

It is a greater issue of misrepresentation and copyright. Goes back to my original position -no one is forcing you to read the topic. Also, if you don't like stock photos on eBay, don't buy that item or from that person.

 

[Merryweather]

But, it is about thousands of hours of my WORK that is being stolen.

NOTHING is stolen yet, hence I do not think "being stolen" is the right phrase, it should be "might get stolen".

Isn't one of the basic rules "Innocent until proven guilty?"

Nothing has gone into effect yet, do not be in such a hurry to drop the axe.

This is a good time to remember why we are in this hobby in the first place: For the love of Disney and for finding those lovely pins.

I don't think any of our discussion running rampant lately is fitting in with the hobby, sadly me included. Please take a step back, calm down. There are many ways to change things we do not like. I would think we would be wise to follow a more Gandhi-like approach.

And now, I leave you with this:

 

[TiggerNut]

WINNING!

Just to clarify - LANSAM stated in their chat they planned to ban the use of photos on Ebay. Just because they haven't started banning the use -is no reason to sit idle.

 

[Merryweather]

WINNING!

Just to clarify - LANSAM stated in their chat they planned to ban the use of photos on Ebay. Just because they haven't started banning the use -is no reason to sit idle.

Nobody is telling you to sit idle. I am just saying that sometimes you can catch more flies with honey.

There are easier and more peaceful ways to reverse things that are not finalized. As simple as that.

If I say that "I am planning to buy a house" would that make me a home owner the very say day?
Same way, they were planning a ban, but it is not final yet.

 

[Stitch2814]

OMG they are just pictures people get over it. If we all wanted our photos back then we would have NO database what so ever and would have to start all over again. This is just pathetic and idiotic beyod belief.

Like I said before IF I went to pinpics and took my picture away from pinpics 89669 then there would not be a picture for that pin for a loooooooong time until someone in japan sent the photo again.

And I find it so strange how ebay sellers use pinpics photos but do not upload pictures themselves as they dont want there photos used on pinpics.

 

[TiggerNut]

And I find it so strange how ebay sellers use pinpics photos but do not upload pictures themselves as they dont want there photos used on pinpics.

Uh..that is MY Issue..I did contribute over 10,000 photos. Didn't I contribute enough? Shouldn't I be concerned I can not longer use my photos because Pinpics wants to complain to Ebay and have my auction pulled down because they put a WATERMARK on my photo.

 

[Stitch2814]

Your just one of how many ebay sellers who use pinpics photos. I was not singling you out. There are many ebay sellers who get pins up on ebay maybe half a day before they appear on pinpics and yet do you see ebay sellers allowing pinpics to use there images..No they dont. It cant just work one way.

And IMHO take a photo of the pin, I have a samsng galaxy S and that camera on the phone is great, and gets great quality so there is no excuse to not be able to take a quick picture. I sat and took pictures of 40+ action figures I could have used any old photo but then the buyer doesnt see EXACTLY what they are getting as to me that can create more hassle when the image is of a stock photo or someone elses off pinpics and then the item may be different.

 

[TiggerNut]

Well, again, it is a time issue. Scanning photos takes time...and if I have done the photo before, and the pin is identical to what I am selling..why do I have to do it again? I did it the first time and shared it with Pinpics. Now, I cannot even get my old photos back -as Pinpics watermarked them, and I don't have a copy anymore (I am referring to things from early 2001-2002).

It seems unfair that I did the work, and now cannot get it back because of the watermark.

Again, I just want fairness. Keep the rules the same as they were when the photo was given, make rules for the new stuff. Easiest way to handle it.

 

[kajtdd]

Ok, going back to the original question: How do you know that their charged services will include YOUR previous contributions?

Maybe they will open a small shopping area on their site to raise funds. Maybe they will sell stuff for income. Maybe they would offer a fee based authentication service. Maybe they would organize and catalogue people's collections for them and charge for that. But these would not include any of YOUR pictures, descriptions, etc. whatever your precious contributions were.

The proof of what they are planning to do is already been shown. Your speculation is just as valid or invalid as mine. Howeover, I would note that your statement does include my work product: "Maybe they would organize and catalogue people's collections for them and charge for that." THis would naturally mean they are use my discripitions which I added. I do not need to show every inference to "prove" that they are making a profit from the work product of the numerous contributors to Pin Pics. The burden in this sitution is by the prepondernce of the evidence, which means more likely or not.

kajtdd

 

[Merryweather]

]The burden in this sitution is by the prepondernce of the evidence, which means more likely or not.

kajtdd

If you wanna be right so desperately, then be right.

All I am saying is that you are getting riled up for things you don't even know.

I have no idea what their for-profit activities will include but if they are reading this, I am sure they will find ways not to include your "work products". Nothing is worth it really.

 

[latemetal]

Your just one of how many ebay sellers who use pinpics photos. I was not singling you out. There are many ebay sellers who get pins up on ebay maybe half a day before they appear on pinpics and yet do you see ebay sellers allowing pinpics to use there images..No they dont. It cant just work one way.

Ok, I have to step in here. When I sell on eBay, I do usually go for original pictures, but for me, its not becuase I want to show the original item, usually if I have a pin to sell, I usually have more than 1 so that isn't the issue, I go for what looks the best and shows the pin in the most accurate way. Most of my pictures are better than the ones on Pinpics, however, sometimes, the pictures on pinpics show the pin better and I use that picture and give them credit.

As far as not giving pictures to pinpics right away, I do this a lot for a few reasons, one, if I have the best looking picture on eBay, the better it is for me. Other sellers can not use my picture becuase I did not give them permission and if they try, I can have their auction removed if I wanted. Once the picture is loaded onto pinpics, it becomes freely useable by all sellers on eBay. I do not have a problem with this and support this. This is why a lot of times, I will only add or send in a better picture once I am sold out of a pin. At that point, it no longer has any effect on my business and still helps the community. To me its just good business sense to not give my advantage away to the other sellers I am competing against. Once I am out of the running for that pin, I don't care what people use my pictures.

 

[erudolf]

People place restrictions on their donations all the time. I can donate $1,000,000 to my college with the restriction it be used solely for the library or football fields. For many charities it is a common practice to make sure you get authorization that your donation either go into the general fund or earmarked for specific cause. There have been significant controvesies and congressionial investigations when people believe the money earmarked for a specific cause has not go to the specific cause but put to the general pool.

kajtdd

Donating a $1,000,000 is a heck of a lot different than donating a silly picture. When you donate money you are giving it away and no longer have it anymore. When you donate a piture, you are giving away pixels but you are still whole. If you weren't smart enough to save your own copies then shame on you. That's your own fault. This discussion would be totally different if you gave the information with the understanding that it WOULD NOT be shared and then they chose to share it. They are simply not providing the usage of the images from THEIR SITE anymore. If you feel so passionately about it, throw up a website and share your pictures with everyone yourself. And again, if you didn't take the steps to protect YOUR OWN WORK then that is your fault. Obviously you didn't care about it enough to store and maintain it on your own...

First off, maybe you don't feel as strongly as I do because I have been doing this for 12 years. But, it is about thousands of hours of my WORK that is being stolen. I value my time and do not want to repeat those efforts -when what is being done is against the stated policy when the pictures were provided.

As an aside, my Ebay business was started when I couldn't afford pins and was in school. My ebay business continues so I can take law cases for under privledged clients who would not be able to afford representation, if I didn't have another souce of income.

This effects my business and by default effects the lives of others, along with other friends who sell pins. This wouldn't be an issue if Pinpics left it alone. But instead, among their other nefarious efforts, they have decided to change something that doesn't need to be changed; and further they do not have the RIGHT to change it. If they try, they will be sued.

It is a greater issue of misrepresentation and copyright. Goes back to my original position -no one is forcing you to read the topic. Also, if you don't like stock photos on eBay, don't buy that item or from that person.

And there it is.....I think that the real reason you are so upset about it is because it affects your BUSINESS and not the hobby itself. Are you trying to say that you haven't profited from "your work" over the years? Didn't you say in another thread that you've made over A MILLION in ebay sales over the years? It sounds like you have profited off of "your work" and the hobby pleanty. Tell me, what does Pinpics get for all of the work they put into the site over the years??? All of the hardware, volunteer hours, maintenance, etc???? Where are their profits in all this? It seems to me that you are using THIER WORK far more than they are using YOURS.

Bottom line is you are still whole. You can still access and use all of "your work". The only thing you can't do is use the pic from their site on ebay. That's it. But, presumably if you are going to sell something on ebay then you have the item in hand and can take a picture of it yourself. So, yes, it will take more time...but unless you intend to sell those pins at or below cost then I don't feel sorry for you. You want the profit, earn it.

Just out of curiosity, what is the last pin you provided a piture for? What year was it realeases? Pinpics has thousands and thousands and thousands of pins that very very few people care about. So, I'm wondering, what pins are we talking about here?

 

[TiggerNut]

Just out of curiosity, what is the last pin you provided a piture for? What year was it realeases? Pinpics has thousands and thousands and thousands of pins that very very few people care about. So, I'm wondering, what pins are we talking about here?

The last pin I contributed was Tigger tornadoes - Pinpics 89504. It was deleted when this drama started. So, I don't think there is a true way to measure the interest on it. It was Wild World of Sports and the logo is still found on merchandise presently sold in the stores.

 

[erudolf]

The last pin I contributed was Tigger tornadoes - Pinpics 89504. It was deleted when this drama started. So, I don't think there is a true way to measure the interest on it. It was Wild World of Sports and the logo is still found on merchandise presently sold in the stores.

Ok. So it looks like it was added Added 2012-02-24 23:51:11. It has been over a month and only 8 people want it - so maybe those 8 people will be dissapointed that they can no longer look at a pin they will never own.

You know what else I find interesting....that pin was released in 2003 and you just now added it to Pinpics....WELL after the transfer of ownership to LANSAM was made....If you were so concerned about them, why have you continued giving them information?

 

[Merryweather]

....If you were so concerned about them, why have you continued giving them information?

I wonder ??

 

[latemetal]

If you weren't smart enough to save your own copies then shame on you. That's your own fault. This discussion would be totally different if you gave the information with the understanding that it WOULD NOT be shared and then they chose to share it.

So the fault here is becuase tiggernut put trust in PinPics? I can not see how you can blame someone for trusting a site that has the same policy for 12 years and then turn it on them once the new owner changes some of the core features of Pinpics. Shame on someone for trusting a system that has been around longer than 99.99% of all pin traders. Lansam combined has barely over 3 years experience of Disney pins between the three known members. It is clear that Lansam does not understand what they bought at all and the importance of it.

There is no difference between sharing something if they said it would not be shared and restricting acess when they said it would be available. Both are equally wrong. New policies that change core elements should only be enforced for new pins going forward.

 

[kajtdd]

If you wanna be right so desperately, then be right.

All I am saying is that you are getting riled up for things you don't even know.

I have no idea what their for-profit activities will include but if they are reading this, I am sure they will find ways not to include your "work products". Nothing is worth it really.

I am getting "riled up" because personal attacks are being made.

I am getting "riled up" because the statement that Lansam is not trying to "profit" from my and other contributors work is most likely untrue. Lansam has purchased Pin Pics as an asset they plan to use. Lansam has their expenses and is using significant resources to make whatever improvements they think is best for Pin Pics. However, Lansam is California Corporation and not a charity, and in my experience corporations are set up to either protect assets and / or make profits.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam’s stated intention for the no-eBay picture policy (to make sure the person getting the pin knows exactly which pin they are getting) is incomprehensible if applied as currently stated. Simply put, if Lansam does not apply to all secondary market resources (eBay, Pin Talk, Disney Pin Forum) and does not enforce it for all pin trades (including those through Pin Pics), people will never exactly what pin they are getting over the internet. However, the uniformed application of this policy will hasten and exacerbate the death of online pin trading. In my opinion it would cause significant barriers to have to take pictures every time someone wanted to make a trade over the internet and discourage pin trading.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam has now attempted on at least two occasions to limit the access of third parties’ work product.

I am getting “riled up” because Lansam still is soliciting third parties to add pins, comments and pictures to Pin Pics.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam is setting dangerous precedencies for the future of a hobby I have enjoyed for more than 10 years.

These are some the reasons I am getting “riled up”.

kajtdd

 

[charlesu]

As a photographer I have to chime in that I would never support a rights grab like this. That's what it amounts to. If there is nothing in the current TOU that says that the copyright transfers to PinPics, then the created of the image retains the copyright that was automatically created when their image was created.

However, this is a bit sticky in that the original artwork as created by Disney is copyrighted by them. A photo would/could be considered a derivative work and since only the original copyright owner can grant permission for a derivative work, then there would be no legitimate copyright for the image by either the creator/scanner/photographer of the image or PinPics. Only Disney would hold a legitimate copyright of the image.

Note too that all of their characters are trademarked so in theory, if Disney wanted to enforce it, I don't believe that we could use the images in any advertising without Disney's permission. This could include an ebay photo.

Now, neither of these issues are likely scenarios and both a pretty unenforceable. But you see how complicated this can get. Either way, PinPics cannot grab rights for previously contributed images. Nor, at least in theory, could they claim copyright on new images as they would be derivative works of the originals.

 

[kajtdd]

Donating a $1,000,000 is a heck of a lot different than donating a silly picture. When you donate money you are giving it away and no longer have it anymore. When you donate a piture, you are giving away pixels but you are still whole. If you weren't smart enough to save your own copies then shame on you. That's your own fault. This discussion would be totally different if you gave the information with the understanding that it WOULD NOT be shared and then they chose to share it. They are simply not providing the usage of the images from THEIR SITE anymore. If you feel so passionately about it, throw up a website and share your pictures with everyone yourself. And again, if you didn't take the steps to protect YOUR OWN WORK then that is your fault. Obviously you didn't care about it enough to store and maintain it on your own...

It doesnt matter if its $1,000,000 or $10.00 or $1, I have the complete right to make my "donation" conditional. My work product was provided based on the TOU at the time, which to my understanding included allowing me and other people to use it for eBay if properly given credit to Pin Pics. To change those those conditions now, upwards of 10 years later, is not fair. Finally, please restrain from personal attacks.

kajtdd

 

[latemetal]

Ok. So it looks like it was added Added 2012-02-24 23:51:11. It has been over a month and only 8 people want it - so maybe those 8 people will be dissapointed that they can no longer look at a pin they will never own.

You know what else I find interesting....that pin was released in 2003 and you just now added it to Pinpics....WELL after the transfer of ownership to LANSAM was made....If you were so concerned about them, why have you continued giving them information?

Since when does when the pin was released have anything to do with when someone gets it, unless they said they got it when it originally came out. Yes, it was after the transfer of PinPics to Lansam but a key fact that you are forgetting that Lansam tried to keep the identities of its true owner secret. After research, it came out that they were hiding pretty serious information and that is where the conerns about them came from in the first place.

 

[erudolf]

So the fault here is becuase tiggernut put trust in PinPics? I can not see how you can blame someone for trusting a site that has the same policy for 12 years and then turn it on them once the new owner changes some of the core features of Pinpics. Shame on someone for trusting a system that has been around longer than 99.99% of all pin traders. Lansam combined has barely over 3 years experience of Disney pins between the three known members. It is clear that Lansam does not understand what they bought at all and the importance of it.

There is no difference between sharing something if they said it would not be shared and restricting acess when they said it would be available. Both are equally wrong. New policies that change core elements should only be enforced for new pins going forward.

Ugh, yes. Pinpics is not your personal photo storage place. And if she wants them that bad, they are still there! She can go get them and save them herself!

Since people seem to like the hypothetical "what if" scenarios how about this one - what if Britt and Figgy had won the lottery and instead of transferring ownership just said "to hell with it, we are off to the beach and don't care" and the database just disappeared. Then what? Who are you going to get mad at now because all of your work is gone? Is it their fault that they don't want to do it anymore? Or is it everyone elses' fault for expecting them to do the same thing the way it had always been done until the end of time....

 

[Merryweather]

I am getting "riled up" because personal attacks are being made.

Please be more specific and provide links.

I am getting "riled up" because the statement that Lansam is not trying to "profit" from my and other contributors work is most likely untrue.

How much water does this hold in court? "Most likely untrue" .... Have they made a single penny profiting from your work product yet? If yes, please proove it.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam’s stated intention for the no-eBay picture policy

Intention is not the same as action.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam has now attempted on at least two occasions to limit the access of third parties’ work product.

Please elaborate and keep in mind that if people got banned from Pinpics, Pinpics/Lansam never made any promises to anyone that there would never be any bans.

I am getting “riled up” because Lansam still is soliciting third parties to add pins, comments and pictures to Pin Pics.

I do not remember anyone putting a gun to my head for adding pins. If you don't want to, then do not. I only send them scrapper pictures from the chinese web-sites.

I am getting "riled up" because Lansam is setting dangerous precedencies for the future of a hobby I have enjoyed for more than 10 years.

Please provide documentation where Pinpics/Lansam promised that all would last forever and ever. It is their site. They have retained legal help. If they want to shut the site down, they can.

On the other hand, who is holding you back from setting proper precedencies for the future of a hobby you have enjoyed for more than 10 years. It does not cost too much to get your own web-site. I do not remember Lansam/Pinpics stating anywhere that they are the sole pin database.

So, I still see no reason to be riled up.