Warning!!! They're Back...

[rubyslipperedgoddess]

If you guys really want to do something about this you can stop wasting your time and reporting to ebay. The most ebay can do is remove their account and then within a couple of days, to a couple of weeks they will have a new account.

Selling counterfeit merchandise is a federal offense and can be reported to the FBI, in this case the internet crimes division. If these pins are coming from China well then that is also a violation of international trade laws. If these are indeed fakes, which you can't know just by a picture on ebay, however reasonable doubt might be enough, than report it to the FBI and they will look into it.

Copyright infringement is considered a big deal and will be prosecuted.

 

[fluffycat1]

Fake pins

I filed a complaint against this seller and I got an email from eBay asking me to discuss the matter. Has anyone else gotten this email?

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

No...I wonder if every one reported again and again would it help? I also noted he has several bids now on these bad pins so he's going to continue to sell them as long as he can under this id.

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

If several of us could buy one or two, then leave appropriate feedback (after we verified they are indeed counterfeit) to warn others what to look out for - such as: "WARNING this is a counterfeit pin search disneypinforum.com for info". Or "Caution Selling Counterfeit Disney Pins - Search Disneypinforum... Would this help???

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

I'd be willing to go in with someone and invest $10 toward a venture like this - Maybe we could at least make a difference with this one supplier/seller for awhile and get the word out about these pins!

 

[erudolf]

If several of us could buy one or two, then leave appropriate feedback (after we verified they are indeed counterfeit) to warn others what to look out for - such as: "WARNING this is a counterfeit pin search disneypinforum.com for info". Or "Caution Selling Counterfeit Disney Pins - Search Disneypinforum... Would this help???

The problem is that you can't really prove anything either way. I don't really believe that the are counterfeit. A more suitable term is possibly scrapper or unauthorized over run. The pins this seller has were probably made in the exact same factory with the exact same mold and could have even been part of the exact same run as the authentic one. So, in reality, it is 99% authentic. The only thing that makes it unauthentic is the fact that Disney never sold it and therefore has no hologram. For example, the order was for 100 so maybe they made 150 or something like that and the extras got socked away somewhere until someone decided to make money off of them. Or, they just came across the mold and decided to make more. I'm less likely to believe that scenario since the colors look so spot on.

So, common sense says they are unauthorized which warrants the warnings on Pinpics but we can't really prove it.

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

Mmmmmmmm... - "99% authentic" - "unauthentic" -"scrapper" - "extras" - "unauthorized over run"...but "not...counterfeit"?? Maybe they are just replicas!

Personally I wouldn't want "replica" Disney Pins nor "replica" $$$$!!

Reproduction might work, too.

 

[erudolf]

Mmmmmmmm... - "99% authentic" - "unauthentic" -"scrapper" - "extras" - "unauthorized over run"...but "not...counterfeit"?? Maybe they are just replicas!

Personally I wouldn't want "replica" Disney Pins nor "replica" $$$$!!

Reproduction might work, too.

I wasn't defending it or anything....I was just pointing out that it isn't so cut and dry and even though we pretty much know there are shady dealings going on here, you can't prove anything. We don't know EXACTLY what is going on here so all we can do is speculate.

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

I wasn't defending it or anything....I was just pointing out that it isn't so cut and dry and even though we pretty much know there are shady dealings going on here, you can't prove anything. We don't know EXACTLY what is going on here so all we can do is speculate.

So, common sense says they are unauthorized which warrants the warnings on Pinpics but we can't really prove it.

and

I don't really believe that the are counterfeit. A more suitable term is possibly scrapper or unauthorized over run. The pins this seller has were probably made in the exact same factory with the exact same mold and could have even been part of the exact same run as the authentic one. So, in reality, it is 99% authentic. The only thing that makes it unauthentic is the fact that Disney never sold it and therefore has no hologram. For example, the order was for 100 so maybe they made 150 or something like that and the extras got socked away somewhere until someone decided to make money off of them. Or, they just came across the mold and decided to make more.

I agree with you that these pins are probably scrappers and not just counterfeits, however, as you said, we can only speculate about their origins. And, one speculation I have thought about is that Disney may actually be the culprit...

The Disney Groups Inc. are not stupid. They know up front they can only make X amount of $ on the sale of one LE pin. But, they also know that on the Black Market (or to the original factory in China), the left-over scrappers, and the original moulds would be worth a lot more. I, personally, have a difficult time believing that a company as large and powerful as Disney does not have any way to control the actual production, and the destruction of culls or moulds from these pins. Perhaps 150 of the LE 100's were produced and Disney's quality control people chose the best 100 for DA to sell, or maybe they produced 200 and Disney got the ones they wanted out of the bunch. That leaves 100 that could later be slowly released into the population over time, so as not to cause too much alarm among the pin collectors.... And, if the collectors did complain about the problem, Disney would be sure to send a polite generic form letter thanking the person for their report and saying they'd "look into the matter because we take our copyrights seriously"...or else they'd leak a story about the moulds being "miarcously discovered after all this time and now they are being reproduced by a factory in China". China is a long ways away from the USA - and Disney probably likes it this way - they don't have to be held accountable. And, I believe the speculation above may be the real reason why nothing will ever be done about the replica pins. They may be Disney pins and they may be 100% authenic - they are just not from the 100 first picked and sold by DA.
Disney could easily have sold these moulds or the left over pins to their factory in China with the stipulation they not be re-released for a certain time.

 

[unibear]

I don't know. If Disney were really involved in these sales, then why wouldn't they send the China company a set of the holograms to put on these pins? Then, there'd be no question (from the trader's perspective) about the authenticity of these pins and they could probably make a whole lot more $$ selling these "real" pins with holograms.

 

[erudolf]

I think Disney being involved is a little far-fetched. It just wouldn't make sense. The extra grand they might make off of a pin design wouldn't be worth the risk to their reputation. Plus, when you figure that the revenue would be delayed several years....the theory just doesn't hold together. And even a company as large as Disney can't control their vendors. In order to do so they would need an employee (more likely several employees) stationed at the factory to oversee all manufacturing and that would be a rather large expense.

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

The revenue would be instant...I'm not saying Disney would wait for their money 4-5 years - they could sell the moulds or scrappers in bulk at the end of a production run or a year. Some of the pins and moulds might not be worth trying to sell in a few years but others would. And the holograms would not be a problem, so the ones being sold now don't have a hologram, they are still selling (or at least they were last round from this seller). I'm not saying this is what happened, but to me it makes as much or more sense as the one supporting that the moulds were "accidently found" or the scrappers (or over-runs) were accidently left by Disney or just disappeared for a few years, only to be found and sold by a former employee years later...

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

In theory, Disney stands nothing to gain at this point - either from these fake pins being sold on the Black Market or not. They have made whatever money they could in 2006-07. They would gain possibly a lot more by selling their scrappers and/or moulds than what they gain from just selling one batch of LE 100's. These people from China that are getting these pins to sell are not too worried about the hologram missing...Disney probably did only sell the original 100 with the holograms and the people in the Black Market said "no problem" we won't advertise them as having a hologram...but pins with holograms issues are NOT the only fake pins out there. Such as the Disney Masterpieces - some of the ones being sold as DA Masterpieces do not have to worry about the empty hologram hole because they never had them to begin with. It may be far fetched and it's not a popular thought with for me either as I know it is not with any "Disney Lover"! But, I keep asking myself how is this happening with so many of the best Disney pins - and why did Disney not try whatever it took to prevent it to begin with because I know they could have.

 

[erudolf]

I still don't buy it...sorry. The numbers just aren't there to support it. Disney is not going to risk the reputation of a multi-billion corporation by dealing in the black market for their own product just to get a few extra thousand. The majority of scrappers sell for pennies...if Disney had "sold" the scrappers or molds, there would be no room for margin. It just doesn't make sense. Also, I'd doubt that Disney actually owns the molds to begin with. It think they just come up with the design and send it in to the factory and say, "hey, make this". Remember the passholder pin set from a couple years ago? They were going to be individual pins but when they received them they were so small that they couldn't justify selling them separately??? If Disney was involved enough in the manufacturing process to own the molds then I'd think they would have know what size they were going to be.

I just don't believe it and I don't think it is because I don't want to because I'm a pretty skeptical person. I just don't think the theory holds any water. The only thing I could possibly believe is a rogue employee getting a kickback rather than the company itself being behind it...but still....I really don't believe that either.

 

[hopemax]

It's possible Disney could have an agreement with the manufacturer that "the "leftover" product is theirs to dispose of how they see fit." For example, in the US, Disney hires companies like MouseSurplus and others to do "demolition" for their hotel, and attraction refurbishment projects. However, as part of their payment, they are allowed to resell what they take from the project. Most of it is just bundled and sold as scrap, but the better pieces are sold via Ebay and they have a storefront you can visit. In most circumstances, it probably does no harm to the actual market for an item. Toys, clothes, etc end up in the hands of some kids of workers in China, sold in the local street markets, but they aren't flooding the international market. But in this case, people figured out that there was a market. For us, deep in the pin hobby we see how bad it is, but I bet the higher ups at Disney have absolutely no clue at how bad it is. So there is no reason to take action.

 

[AverysFairyTale]

I work for a company that has contracted with Disney in the past. We were under contract to destroy and provide proof of destruction and disposal of any unused product. It was a shame becuase the product was cute and would have made great donations for toys for tots and such....

 

[hopemax]

Yes, that happens too. It all depends on the terms of the contract.

 

[JessicaRules]

I wanted to let everyone know that I offered them $40 for the Baseball Jessica pin and they agreed. I received the pin in the mail today and the pin looks like it could be the real deal without the hologram. I have to run to work but if anyone has this pin and knows for sure its real, I would love to see if there are any differences in the two pins. The pin also came with the metal pin backs. Not sure which backs the real pin came with. I will try to post some pictures tonight when I get home.

 

[JessicaRules]

Here are some pictures trying to compare the pins. The one I received from China is the Jessica baseball pin. The football one is one from my collection. The detail on the baseball pin is fantastic. The back seems to match the other pin exactly to the one with the hologram. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[gbdb4ever]

View attachment 3737View attachment 3738

Here are some pictures trying to compare the pins. The one I received from China is the Jessica baseball pin. The football one is one from my collection. The detail on the baseball pin is fantastic. The back seems to match the other pin exactly to the one with the hologram. Let me know what you guys think.

The front and back of the Baseball pin are identical to the one I have with the exception of the hologram. I am not an expert by any means, but it appears as though the pin you bought is either (a) the real thing, but missing the hologram, (b) a scrapper from the original run, or (c) an extremely fine counterfeit.

The question is...how do you know for sure?

 

[JessicaRules]

The front and back of the Baseball pin are identical to the one I have with the exception of the hologram. I am not an expert by any means, but it appears as though the pin you bought is either (a) the real thing, but missing the hologram, (b) a scrapper from the original run, or (c) an extremely fine counterfeit.

The question is...how do you know for sure?

Thanks for the info. I'm no expert either, but I was just sharing the information with the group since it was a heated subject a few weeks ago.

 

[pook-a-lu-le]

This is really great news! - No way to tell they are counterfeit or fake except a missing hologram...and now I just hope the China Factory doesn't accidently find an extra box of holograms lying around. Nothing like great scrappers to bring the subjective price of anything down or the outright original value for that matter.

The seller has now listed more of the same this week, too - 3/7 - so there will be even more of the LE 100's out there in circulation. (Wonder what year they will accidently find the Stitch LE 50 Bee pin over-runs...?) However, it does look like from this seller's recent feedback received that all buyers are not happy with their purchases, so maybe it will get a little more difficult for this particular seller's id to continue much longer on the Bay.

 

[erudolf]

The front and back of the Baseball pin are identical to the one I have with the exception of the hologram. I am not an expert by any means, but it appears as though the pin you bought is either (a) the real thing, but missing the hologram, (b) a scrapper from the original run, or (c) an extremely fine counterfeit.

The question is...how do you know for sure?

Nobody is going to be able to answer this 100% but if I were going to bet I'd be putting all of my money on (b) a scrapper from the original run. The word "scrapper" has become so synonymous with poor quality but that isn't necessarily the case. A pin with perfect quality could be scrapped just because the quota was already met. I think Disney knew that this was going to be a problem which is why the did the holograms in the first place.....I just wish they would have continued it.

Hologram or no hologram, this is such a shame. It just hurts pin trading period. There are lots of people that will be perfectly happy having a copy with no hologram which just brings down the demand for the real thing.

 

[kyuubee]

Please no one here take this personally or as a racist statement

My rule of thumb is this,if it comes from Hong Kong,Singapore etc etc (especially when they say things like location:disneyland usa,singapore) and it's a rare pin,STAY AWAY!! Even if it's a not so rare pin it's risky,there are just too many counterfitters in that region sadly,and alot of the buyers don't know enough to be able to tell the pin isn't authentic and give positive feedback.
I find it hard to believe someone in Singapore had the foresight to stock up on LE100's to list a few years later on ebay and is able to continually list more as he sells them.

I love his answer to if you could order 110 LOL

Once again,please don't take this as any form of racism

And ebay doesn't really care,I have a friend in Japan who is a very prominent fashion designer,and someone in Hong Kong is listing horribly made knockoffs,and ebay didn't do anything to the seller v_v even after many reports and her own report to ebay

 

[kyuubee]

geez I just checked and he has the baseball one up for bidding at 79.99 now O____O