What's the difference? * Terminology*

[Psycho Pixie]

Ok, so Lots of terms get thrown around with regards to non-authentic pins. And I really want to understand the big differences, as I am sure many others would. I would also love to see the correct terms used regarding pins. I figure this topic belongs in Pin Comparison's because it addresses those different "non-authentic" pins.

Everyone uses the term "scrapper." But Scrapper is not really correct regarding many of the pins out there that we consider no good for trading.

What is a "scrapper?"

• A pin manufactured at a Disney Authorized factory, but does not pass Quality control. This is supposed to be trashed but is instead somehow reaching the secondary market.
• Sometimes a pin that makes it through quality control and is for sale in Disney Stores can also be considered a scrapper once it leaves the store because there are problems with it. ((to clarify: people who are trading for it may call it a scrapper, and not believe it came from a Disney store.))
• A scrapper can have paint dips or drips, rough edges, low gloss finish, or a sloppy backstamp. But it should not have a different weight, color, or incorrect backstamp, or be a different size.

What is an "over-run?" ((thank you latemetal))

• When disney creates a pin, such as a limited edition of 2000. Sometimes more than 2000 are produced. These overages are supposed to be destroyed once the 2000 quality control passed pins are finished. However, sometimes they sneak into circulation the same way true Scrappers do.

What is a "counterfeit?"

• A pin manufactured by someplace NOT authorized by Disney.Designs for this pin were likely stolen or obtained in some other illegal way to infringe on Disney Copyrights.
• Some counterfeits are getting so good you can barely tell the difference!!!
• A counterfeit can be differentiated from a scrapper because: the metal used for manufacture is likely lower quality, thus making the pin a lighter weight, or even slightly different in color. The paints used are inferior, so color differences can often be spotted. Due to the illegal method of obtaining the pin pattern, sometimes a counterfeit will even be a different size by a tiny bit. The backstamp may have errors, such as incorrect edition size, or even a totally wrong description, and typo's such as switched letters or mis-spellings.

What is a "Fantasy" pin? What is a Bootleg?

• A pin manufactured by a non Disney Authorized Factory, that does not claim the pin is Official Disney pin trade material. The pin design itself was not stolen from Disney.
• It does not mimic or look like any official Disney pin.
• Fantasy pins often have editions sizes listed, but since it is not a regulated pin, that doesn't mean they are actually limited in edition size.
• Examples of Fantasy pins are some of the super "sexy" Tinker Bell's and Jessica pins you see out there.

What is a Bootleg?

• A bootleg is like a Fantasy, however, it infringes on Disney copywrite.
• See some of the replies below for further details.

So, What most folks call "scrappers" of the hidden mickeys are actually Counterfeits, because the weight, metal, backstamp, and even size are often different. Yes, I am sure there are "scrappers" of those pins. However, what people are buying in lots on Ebay are likely Counterfeit versions, not just scrappers some factory worker snagged and re-sold.

other great threads about this stuff:
Scrappers Vs. Counterfiets (and how to tell)


A sub category:: Can someone please post information on what an Artist Proof (AP) and a Pre-Production (PP) is? As well as details on why they may be different from the standard pin? Or provide the link if there is already a thread topic about that?

Artist Proof & Pre-Production Pins, Trading Pins, Walt Disney Pins | PinPics


While it has no baring on the counteferfeit vs scrapper terms used. Someone requested that we include a bit about PoH, PoDM...

PoH: is a series called Piece of History. These pins have tiny pieces of an attraction actually attached to the pin, and are limited edition.

PoDM: This is the film cell series. It's actual title is Piece of Disney Movies. ((no History in the title folks)) The term "scene" is also used to describe the image inside the pin. This is also incorrect. It is actually a "frame" from the movie, not the whole scene.
For instance: "I really would like any frame from the Mulan Scene on the Palace roof." Rather than "I really want a scene of the palace roof."

 

[Goofy_Moe]

Interesting info you have stored in that psychotic brain of yours...

 

[ashkai]

Hello there,

thanks for posting the different terminology.

Just FYI I know that the Stitch wishing pin had a actual production error on it and some of them got back stamped with Winnie the Pooh info, but it came that way from disney.

It is pinpics 47331

 

[siberiaya]

Very helpfull!! thanks for this info!!!

 

[latemetal]

• Sometimes a pin that makes it through quality control and is for sale in Disney Stores can also be considered a scrapper once it leaves the store because there are problems with it.

This is not true at all. A scrapper by definition is a pin that is scrapped during the production process for any reason. Quality control on a single pin or sometimes an entire run of a pin with an error. If Disney is selling a pin, it is obviously not a scrapper since Disney accepted it and is selling it. Now with that said, its true that there are many times when Disney has sold a pin or is currently selling a pin that should not have passed quality control. If it would have been rejected, it would then be a scrapper. If Disney sells it, its just a low quality pin.

The other term you are looking for is over run.

Also, a Fantasy pin never violates copyrights. They are pins that allude to Disney but do not infringe in any way. For example, a random castle vs Cinderella Castle. A clown fish vs Nemo.

Then there are Bootleg pins that are original designs that clearly violate copyrights of characters.

 

[katpogo]

Here is an oldie but goodie link:

http://disneypinforum.com/showthread.php?205-Scrappers-Vs-Counterfiets-(and-how-to-tell)

Look at some of the stickied threads under the main topics on the main forum. A lot of very knowledgeable traders have posted guides and definitions.

 

[katpogo]

Another goodie:

http://disneypinforum.com/showthrea...nd-Pre-Production-(PP)-Pins-Guide-and-FAQ%92s

 

[Psycho Pixie]

This is not true at all. A scrapper by definition is a pin that is scrapped during the production process for any reason. Quality control on a single pin or sometimes an entire run of a pin with an error. If Disney is selling a pin, it is obviously not a scrapper since Disney accepted it and is selling it. Now with that said, its true that there are many times when Disney has sold a pin or is currently selling a pin that should not have passed quality control. If it would have been rejected, it would then be a scrapper. If Disney sells it, its just a low quality pin.

The other term you are looking for is over run.

Also, a Fantasy pin never violates copyrights. They are pins that allude to Disney but do not infringe in any way. For example, a random castle vs Cinderella Castle. A clown fish vs Nemo.

Then there are Bootleg pins that are original designs that clearly violate copyrights of characters.

Thank you for the correct term. "Over run" adjusting OP.

What I meant by the comment about ones that sell and are then considered scrappers is that traders see it and assume it was a scrapper and will not trade for it. Because is snuck past quality control and sold in stores, and trader A buys it, doesnt mean trader B will look at it and understand that you bought a poor pin, they will call it scrap.

I never really thought about the difference between Fantasy and bootleg. Aren't they pretty much the same? Because a "Fantasy" Tinker Bell in a bikini is still a Tinker Bell and therefore disney copyright property correct? Does that mean that the term Fantasy is not correct in that case? Can we discuss this more so i can add/change it in the OP please?

 

[BugCatcherJenna]

Quality post, but I am going to have to disagree with you about something...hehe!
Most of the scrappers I have had in hand ARE lighter than the REAL version of the pin... Maybe because there is no gloss cover to add additional weight... :dunno:

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Hello there,

thanks for posting the different terminology.

Just FYI I know that the Stitch wishing pin had a actual production error on it and some of them got back stamped with Winnie the Pooh info, but it came that way from disney.

It is pinpics 47331

The one i am thinking of was an open edition stitch, we have seen plenty of it with correct backstamp. It was the one with him wearing the blue pokadot thing on his head.


Thank you Kat for the links!!!! will look them over to add to the OP.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Quality post, but I am going to have to disagree with you about something...hehe!
Most of the scrappers I have had in hand ARE lighter than the REAL version of the pin... Maybe because there is no gloss cover to add additional weight... :dunno:

My theory ((since no-one can really prove where a pin comes from once it has hit the secondary market)) is that a significantly lighter pin, is actually a counterfeit, not a scrapper. The light gloss coating will not add enough weight to a pin to cause a real measurable difference if weighed in hand, and a negligible difference on a digital scale. But the lower quality metal used by counterfeit manufacturing would feel different and be measurable on a scale.

 

[KT07]

as i have told many ppl and had them not get what im saying or lol at me..... but... u can also hear the sound of a fake pin. the cheep metal will make a tink tink high pitch sound when u tap it on a marble counter top.

This is the reason old cash regesters had a big slab of marble across them. It was used to tap the coins on to hear if they are real or not. Seems mayb im not so crazy after all. lol

 

[LaLaLaaana]

Oh what a neat little trick!! I wish they had a tap on counter option on ebay!!!

 

[latemetal]

I never really thought about the difference between Fantasy and bootleg. Aren't they pretty much the same? Because a "Fantasy" Tinker Bell in a bikini is still a Tinker Bell and therefore disney copyright property correct? Does that mean that the term Fantasy is not correct in that case? Can we discuss this more so i can add/change it in the OP please?

Don't check the boards that often so sorry for my slow reply. If a pin shows Tinker Bell and it wasn't made by Disney, it is a bootleg. Nothing Fantasy about it. Since that violates the copyrights on the characters. Now, if a pin hints at Tinker Bell and makes you think of Tink but does not actually violate any copyrights on the character, that is a Fantasy pin. A lot of times, people will call a Bootleg pin a Fantasy pin to try and advertise the fact that it was not made by Disney but if it violates a copyright, its not a Fantasy pin. Fantasy sounds a lot better than bootleg when trying to explain its not made by Disney. Over time, it seems the true definition of Fantasy pin has been getting lost by people calling bootleg pins fantasy pins to lessen the stigma of it. Very similar to how the term scrapper has pretty much lost its original meaning and I believe that at least 95% of all pins people call scrappers are actually counterfeit copies and not true scrappers.

For example. This pin is a Bootleg. It was not made by Disney and it is clearly Tinker Bell.

Now these would be considered Fantasy pins. Not made by Disney and generic enough that it does not violate copyrights on the characters.

 

[Romancing_Train]

Please add WHAT IS A PODM

And that it is not POMH or PODH

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Some excellent info coming in via the replies here. I am bumping this back to page 1.

 

[Rocke01]

Don't check the boards that often so sorry for my slow reply. If a pin shows Tinker Bell and it wasn't made by Disney, it is a bootleg. Nothing Fantasy about it. Since that violates the copyrights on the characters. Now, if a pin hints at Tinker Bell and makes you think of Tink but does not actually violate any copyrights on the character, that is a Fantasy pin. A lot of times, people will call a Bootleg pin a Fantasy pin to try and advertise the fact that it was not made by Disney but if it violates a copyright, its not a Fantasy pin. Fantasy sounds a lot better than bootleg when trying to explain its not made by Disney. Over time, it seems the true definition of Fantasy pin has been getting lost by people calling bootleg pins fantasy pins to lessen the stigma of it. Very similar to how the term scrapper has pretty much lost its original meaning and I believe that at least 95% of all pins people call scrappers are actually counterfeit copies and not true scrappers.

For example. This pin is a Bootleg. It was not made by Disney and it is clearly Tinker Bell.

Now these would be considered Fantasy pins. Not made by Disney and generic enough that it does not violate copyrights on the characters.

OOO I have that bootleg Tink and I LOVE IT! The lady that made it is no longer on this earth but I still cherish her pin! The information here regarding the difference between a bootleg and a fantasy pin is absolutely correct. A bootleg infringes while a fantasy does not.

 

[Jrdnsmom]

WHAT IS AN "ARTIST PROOF?"
For every pin created, there exists a series of Artist Proof (AP) pins. At Disney Theme Park Merchandise, we receive approximately 24 Artist Proof pins per style of pin. For pins with lower edition sizes, we may receive even fewer AP pins.
An AP pin typically has an "AP" mark stamped on the back side of the pin. Stamping the letters "AP" on the back of a pin is an extra step that the manufacturer does once the pin has been created. There is no difference between a retail pin we sell in a merchandise location and its AP cousin except for an "AP" mark that will be found on its back stamp. Artist Proof pins, however, are not sold in our stores.
Once "AP" pins are produced, they are sent to Disney Theme Park Merchandise headquarters where they are used for a variety of purposes. One of every pin created is kept in a permanent Disney Pin Archive at Disney Theme Park Merchandise headquarters, and one pin is sent to the Walt Disney Archives at the Walt Disney Studios in Burbank, California. The remaining AP pins may be used for trading or may become part of auction lots featured at Disney Pin Events. You never know where you may find an AP pin for trade.
Depending upon the manufacturer, the "AP" stamp will appear in a variety of locations. There are very rare occasions when an Artist Proof pin may not include an "AP" mark on its back stamp. We have seen some AP pins in the Disney Pin Vault from the early days of Disney Pin Trading that did not contain "AP" marks. If such a pin is included in an auction lot, we will describe it accordingly - "This is an Artist Proof pin but does not contain an "AP" mark on its back stamp." Below are some examples of "AP" marks and where you may find them on the back stamps of

 

[latemetal]

OOO I have that bootleg Tink and I LOVE IT! The lady that made it is no longer on this earth but I still cherish her pin! The information here regarding the difference between a bootleg and a fantasy pin is absolutely correct. A bootleg infringes while a fantasy does not.

I do miss Candi and still have several pins from her that I will never get rid of. Stitch pile of leaves is my all time favorite.

 

[Geoff]

Quality post, but I am going to have to disagree with you about something...hehe!
Most of the scrappers I have had in hand ARE lighter than the REAL version of the pin... Maybe because there is no gloss cover to add additional weight... :dunno:

This is exactly the confusion pixie is graciously trying to clear up. The pins you are referring to jenna are NOT scrappers but fakes. You have used the term scrapper when you are clearly talking about a fake pin. A real scrapper per pixies definition is a real pin that was made by disney but did not pass inspection and was supposed to be trashed but made it into the pockets of a factory worker who sold them on ebay. Scrappers are very close to their brothers for sale on the rack but are instead factory rejects. Most traders have never seen or held or owned a real honest to goodness scrapper. 99.99% of what people are thinking of when they say "scrapper" is in reality a truly fake pin that is an illegal, non disney made clone of a real pin. It is clear that when you made this post you were thinking of fakes and called them scrappers because you then referenced them to "real" pins. Therefore pixie did not make a mistake; it was just a little term confusion, of which she is trying to fix.

 

[Geoff]

Sorry if that sounded growly. I'm tired, its late, and this topic has bugged me for years, rofl. No offense intended jenna, please don't take any ^-^

 

[Geoff]

And pixie, to address the fantasy/bootleg conundrum, I would just clarify that most if not all sellers of bootleg pins use the term fantasy in the description as a helpful search tag, but in reality they are mislabeling their own product and that thry really truly are bootlegs.

And when this is done ask a mod to sticky it; this is incredibly helpful!!!