Trade Auction Rules Posted

[Psycho Pixie]

I don't mean to be rude but I assure you that you can. I have a listing up right now and it has bids and I went in to end it just to be 100% sure and it does let me... it says you can cancel all bids and end the listing. I am sorry you were misinformed.

apparently, I didnt meet the criteria until I reached 50 reviews... A week ago I could not. Today, I do. hmmmmmmm. Thank you for getting me to try again, because I had a duplicate listing for a bit.

 

[unibear]

Maybe I'm trying too hard to see these "auctions" like other auctions (in-house and eBay), but not all eBay (or store) auctions start out at $0.01 or $0.99. Some start out higher like $9.99 or much higher like $99.99.

I wonder if there is a way to set a minimum type bid. For example, if it is a DA 100 pin, can you say that the minimum bid would be another DA 100 pin? Or more broadly, any Disney pin (DA, DS.com, etc.) with LE 135 or smaller?

Just wondering out loud (with my fingers)...

 

[PixarPerils]

As an uninvested outsider (one who has no interest in participating - auctioning or bidding), I would like to point out that erudolf's point about making multiple bids, and having them all count as possible options for the auctioneer makes the most logical sense of anyone on this thread so far.

Since Dancecats specifically asked for the main points of this thread, I am pointing this out, because I think it deserves attention/serious consideration from DPF staff.

Bidding on Auctions. After thinking about it more I really don't think any bid should be allowed to change. However, I do think people should be able to submit multiple bids. For example, I may offer an LE 300. Then I may feel like I'm loosing so I'll post a new offer of an LE 300 plus and LE 1000. If that still doesn't get the auctioneer's interest I may post an offer of the same LE 300 plus an LE 500. Now, in the end I think the auctioneer should have the right to choose from any of those offers. Maybe they gave it more thought and actually like that second offer better than the last.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Can we please add a rule requiring the OP to close/lock the thread once winner is announced?

thanx!

 

[jcasper89]

I feel like the "Good ol' days" of pin auctions didn't last long. The "no reserve" thing sucks eggs. Pretend for a moment that we had two types of auctions. One with reserves, and one without. Where are the "Good" pins going to be auctioned? That's right. The auction with the reserve. Case closed. Bring back the reserve.

 

[Clara9271]

Can we please add a rule requiring the OP to close/lock the thread once winner is announced?

thanx!

+1

 

[Bellecat22]

I really wasn't going to say anything but why not?

The pin auctions were really fun, but it seems the "rules" were put in place to discourage the auctions. The no reserve is going to lead to disappointment of someone trying to offer a low edition pin that gets no traffic because you can't "bump" your post and it only gets a couple of hits then you get stuck accepting a rack pin. Yeah, the rack pin might be on your wants but it's a rack pin.

Also, Goofy-Moe was going to have his Private Auction before all this rule stuff started so why not let him have it? Who is it really going to hurt? It's entertaining for those of us that are not participating and for those who won his auctions they get to play. What is the big deal?!

 

[Psycho Pixie]

uh... I didnt see anything in the rules saying you couldn't "bump" your thread daily... besides, daily updating who's top bid is allowed, that bumps your thread to the top.

 

[jcasper89]

Another thought on the subject. I strongly disagree with the "no reserve" rule. Here's why. Who is a reserve hurting? Not the the bidder. They wouldn't have been chosen either way. The reserve only really affects the person putting the pin up for bid. They are taking a risk now. I agree with what Bellcat22 wrote as well. Why are the mods making rules? Was there an issue before? If it ain't broke don't try fix'n it.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Another thought on the subject. I strongly disagree with the "no reserve" rule. Here's why. Who is a reserve hurting? Not the the bidder. They wouldn't have been chosen either way. The reserve only really affects the person putting the pin up for bid. They are taking a risk now. I agree with what Bellcat22 wrote as well. Why are the mods making rules? Was there an issue before? If it ain't broke don't try fix'n it.

I am fairly certain there was an issue before. Either way, DPF has to cover their butts, they had to make some rules so that things wouldnt become a free for all insanity. I agree, the no reserve kinda sucks. I think the MODs will look into a way to make sure it is fair to everyone. But be aware, if they did find a way to allow reserves, chances are their would be other "checks and balances" to make sure the bidders are not being taken advantage of either. They are aware of this issue, I am sure they are working to find a solution that please as many people as possible. Cant please everyone ya know. :angel: I mean if they didn't make any rules on the auction forum, someone would be upset that they weren't controling the Auction craze.

 

[Sue81]

I can see both sides of this reserves issue. Nobody wants to put a decent pin up for auction and end up with a hidden mickey because that was all that was offered but if reserves are allowed only the person putting the pin up for auction knows what that is.

In a traditional auction or on ebay reserves are allowed but the admin running those auctions are aware of the reserve, on a forum there is no way to control that.

I think something of a halfway house might be to allow minimum bids to be specified such as LE1000 or trade to want ratio. I also think the rules could do with tightening on bid changes/retractions.

The popularity of auctions appeared very quickly and I'm sure the admins are trying to make this fair for everyone while protecting the site from any unforeseen problems.

 

[jcasper89]

But be aware, if they did find a way to allow reserves, chances are their would be other "checks and balances" to make sure the bidders are not being taken advantage of either. T

This is what I am having trouble figuring out. Who is being taken advantage of? Where is the "victim" that the mods are protecting?

 

[RaChEltheRabidRabbit]

Another thought on the subject. I strongly disagree with the "no reserve" rule. Here's why. Who is a reserve hurting? Not the the bidder. They wouldn't have been chosen either way. The reserve only really affects the person putting the pin up for bid. They are taking a risk now. I agree with what Bellcat22 wrote as well. Why are the mods making rules? Was there an issue before? If it ain't broke don't try fix'n it.

I agree with you 100% on this and I think most of DPF does too.

Maybe a poll is in order and let the majority of the vote make up the rule whether or not there should be a reserve?

 

[erudolf]

Can someone please explain the difference between these two for me???

1) Posting an auction thread with a reserve
2) Posting a trade thread asking people to post their offer and the best acceptable offer(if there is one) gets the trade

Other than giving it the name "auction".....seriously, what's the difference?!?! I just don't understand this grumbling about no reserve. From what I can see the ONLY thing the reserve rule restricts is which section you can post your thread and what you can call it. Is calling it an "auction" really that important to people?

 

[Psycho Pixie]

I can see both sides of this reserves issue. Nobody wants to put a decent pin up for auction and end up with a hidden mickey because that was all that was offered but if reserves are allowed only the person putting the pin up for auction knows what that is.

In a traditional auction or on ebay reserves are allowed but the admin running those auctions are aware of the reserve, on a forum there is no way to control that.

I think something of a halfway house might be to allow minimum bids to be specified such as LE1000 or trade to want ratio. I also think the rules could do with tightening on bid changes/retractions.

The popularity of auctions appeared very quickly and I'm sure the admins are trying to make this fair for everyone while protecting the site from any unforeseen problems.

+1.
this is more along the lines of what I have been trying to say.

 

[movingthestars]

Can someone please explain the difference between these two for me???

1) Posting an auction thread with a reserve
2) Posting a trade thread asking people to post their offer and the best acceptable offer(if there is one) gets the trade

Other than giving it the name "auction".....seriously, what's the difference?!?! I just don't understand this grumbling about no reserve. From what I can see the ONLY thing the reserve rule restricts is which section you can post your thread and what you can call it. Is calling it an "auction" really that important to people?

Because with just a trading thread you can't put people against each other and push them to give you more more more:wavey:
I mean, that is the gist of why people like the auctions over just a trading thread, right?
But I do have to admit, they are pretty fun to watch sometimes.

 

[kajtdd]

Can someone please explain the difference between these two for me???

1) Posting an auction thread with a reserve
2) Posting a trade thread asking people to post their offer and the best acceptable offer(if there is one) gets the trade

Other than giving it the name "auction".....seriously, what's the difference?!?! I just don't understand this grumbling about no reserve. From what I can see the ONLY thing the reserve rule restricts is which section you can post your thread and what you can call it. Is calling it an "auction" really that important to people?

There is a significant difference between and "auction" with "reserve" and a trading thread.

Simply put, until addresses are exchanged, there is nothing binding on either party to a trade. I can make a post saying I am looking for a pin I don't have for a my [Pinpics]1799[/Pinpics]. You see that I don't have [Pinpics]1[/Pinpics] in my collection. You instantly write to me saying "I want to trade Pin 1 for your Pin 1799. Here is my address." However, until I confirm the trade also, it is simply not a go. You cannot compel me to trade PP 1799 for PP1.

Now, if I put up PP 1799 as an auction, with no reserve, and you are the only bidder with PP 1; you can compel the trade to take place. It becomes a contract. However, with a reserve you could not, since the bidder has not fulfilled the contract.

The biggest issue with a "reserve" in the context of these auctions is the fears that they are amorphous. Say I want a "good" pin for 1799. I do not believe this a proper reserve. What does that mean? My idea of "good" might differ from yours. As such, no contract can be formed as their is no meeting of minds.This leads to concern that the auctions are simply fishing expeditions.

There is a simple way to allow reserves to exist: the reserves must be quantifiable. Someone who knows nothing about pin trading should be able to given the facts and be able to say "yes, that reserve can be met." Examples of quantifiable reserves include (but would not be limited to):
*No Hidden Mickeys
*No Pins with More People Trading Than Wanting
*No Pirate pins
*At least [X Number] of pins of my wants list
*Any bid must include Stitch Pin
etc.

Any of these are quantifiable because anyone can look at the various factors and determine that a reserve has been meet. (I note that the someone might need to be taught what a "Hidden Mickey" or "Stitch" pin is).

Now, lets re-run my 1799 auction. I have placed the following reserve: "Any bid must have at least 2 pins off my wants list". Well, you look at my current wants list with 62 pins on it. That is a pretty tight reserve. It may discourage some or even many people from bidding. But you see that I have the Future World Icon WDI set on my list. So you bid:
Pin 1
[Pinpics]90261[/Pinpics]: WDI Epcot Center: World of Motion Logo
[Pinpics]90263[/Pinpics]: WDI Epcot Center: Communicore Logo

Now at the end of the time period for the auction comes and goes and you are the only bidder. Is this a fair trade? I would say no. Pin 1799 regularly sells for over a $500; the two WDI pins are currently being clearance for $5.00 each.

But can you compel the trade? The answer is probably yes. You have meet the reserve. Anyone can see that my reserve was "Two pins off my wants list" and both pins appeared on my wants list. So if I tried to back out, you could force me through various methods to make the trade.

Hence the difference between a trade posting and a quantifiable reserve auction.

kajtdd

 

[erudolf]

Because with just a trading thread you can't put people against each other and push them to give you more more more:wavey:

Says who? There is NO rule stating that you cannot conduct your trade threads like auctions. You can still make a trade thread and ask that people post their offers in the tread.

There is a significant difference between and "auction" with "reserve" and a trading thread.

Simply put, until addresses are exchanged, there is nothing binding on either party to a trade. I can make a post saying I am looking for a pin I don't have for a my [Pinpics]1799[/Pinpics]. You see that I don't have [Pinpics]1[/Pinpics] in my collection. You instantly write to me saying "I want to trade Pin 1 for your Pin 1799. Here is my address." However, until I confirm the trade also, it is simply not a go. You cannot compel me to trade PP 1799 for PP1.

Now, if I put up PP 1799 as an auction, with no reserve, and you are the only bidder with PP 1; you can compel the trade to take place. It becomes a contract. However, with a reserve you could not, since the bidder has not fulfilled the contract.

The biggest issue with a "reserve" in the context of these auctions is the fears that they are amorphous. Say I want a "good" pin for 1799. I do not believe this a proper reserve. What does that mean? My idea of "good" might differ from yours. As such, no contract can be formed as their is no meeting of minds.This leads to concern that the auctions are simply fishing expeditions.

There is a simple way to allow reserves to exist: the reserves must be quantifiable. Someone who knows nothing about pin trading should be able to given the facts and be able to say "yes, that reserve can be met." Examples of quantifiable reserves include (but would not be limited to):
*No Hidden Mickeys
*No Pins with More People Trading Than Wanting
*No Pirate pins
*At least [X Number] of pins of my wants list
*Any bid must include Stitch Pin
etc.

Any of these are quantifiable because anyone can look at the various factors and determine that a reserve has been meet. (I note that the someone might need to be taught what a "Hidden Mickey" or "Stitch" pin is).

Now, lets re-run my 1799 auction. I have placed the following reserve: "Any bid must have at least 2 pins off my wants list". Well, you look at my current wants list with 62 pins on it. That is a pretty tight reserve. It may discourage some or even many people from bidding. But you see that I have the Future World Icon WDI set on my list. So you bid:
Pin 1
[Pinpics]90261[/Pinpics]: WDI Epcot Center: World of Motion Logo
[Pinpics]90263[/Pinpics]: WDI Epcot Center: Communicore Logo

Now at the end of the time period for the auction comes and goes and you are the only bidder. Is this a fair trade? I would say no. Pin 1799 regularly sells for over a $500; the two WDI pins are currently being clearance for $5.00 each.

But can you compel the trade? The answer is probably yes. You have meet the reserve. Anyone can see that my reserve was "Two pins off my wants list" and both pins appeared on my wants list. So if I tried to back out, you could force me through various methods to make the trade.

Hence the difference between a trade posting and a quantifiable reserve auction.

kajtdd

Ok.....in a theoretical sense I guess I can see what you are saying, but in reality, I just don't think it holds any water.

You can say an auction is a "contract", but come on....trades fall through every day. Pre-sales, pre-trades, people just backing out, people realizing that they don't have a pin anymore, all sorts of reasons why trades that were already agreed upon fall through. And what happens then? Nothing. The trade doesn't happen and one or both parties may or may not be upset. We're still talking about pins here, not multimillion dollar companies. In the end, if someone doesn't honor an agreement the worst that typically happens to them is bad feedback or a tarnished rep (or a thread bashing them, but that's a whole other topic altogether). The same will go for auctions. If someone doesn't follow through, what are you going to do? What is anyone going to do?

And a quantifiable reserve.....sounds like waaaaaaayyyyyy more trouble than it is worth. Not to mention there are about a hundred loopholes. If you are auctioning off a high end pin you would have to be EXTREMELY thorough in setting your reserving rules and chances are, you will miss something. You might say, "Offer must include a DA LE 100 Stitch pin" and then someone offers you this ugly thing [Pinpics]43052[/Pinpics]. Oh....sorry....what I meant to say is "Offer must include a DA LE 100 Stitch pin except: 43052,45256, 45648,85694,23215,.......". The list of caveats could go on forever. Not all pins are created equal!!! Just because a pin is an LE 100 Stitch doesn't mean that it is really valuable, and just because a pin is an LE 1000, 2000, or OE doesn't mean it isn't. So, right off the bat, in order to have a quantifiable reserve you have to be very specific.

So ok....let's say you are very specific now and say only pins on your wants list and you think you are covered. Then someone comes in and actually offers you a pin from your wants list and your gut just doesn't like it, what can you do? I'll tell you what you can do....you can take it off your wants list! That is a disaster just waiting to happen because it allows the person auctioning the pin to change the rules as they go.

At the end of the day, in order to have a quantifiable reserve you basically need to list the exact pins you would be willing to accept, and at that point, it isn't an auction, it is a trade thread. There is no point whatsoever of conducting an auction that only two people could potentially qualify for. It is just taking up space and mucking up the boards.

 

[kajtdd]

Ok.....in a theoretical sense I guess I can see what you are saying, but in reality, I just don't think it holds any water.

You can say an auction is a "contract", but come on....trades fall through every day. Pre-sales, pre-trades, people just backing out, people realizing that they don't have a pin anymore, all sorts of reasons why trades that were already agreed upon fall through. And what happens then? Nothing. The trade doesn't happen and one or both parties may or may not be upset. We're still talking about pins here, not multimillion dollar companies. In the end, if someone doesn't honor an agreement the worst that typically happens to them is bad feedback or a tarnished rep (or a thread bashing them, but that's a whole other topic altogether). The same will go for auctions. If someone doesn't follow through, what are you going to do? What is anyone going to do?

Um... Auctions simply are not trades threads. Unlike a trade thread, neither party cannot simply back out; there is no option for it to "fall through". The parties have already pre-agreed to trade based on a winning bid. Hence, they are contracts. Niether party cannot simply go back on them. If I offer my Pin 1799 for auction, and the only bid is Pin 1, then both parties have to go through. If I offer my Pin 1 for auction, and someone decides to offer Pin 1799, and that is the winning bid, then both parties still have to trade. My example is extreme, but if you seriously believe someone would not sue over a $100 dollars, then I might recommend watching People's Court, Judge Judy, etc.

And a quantifiable reserve.....sounds like waaaaaaayyyyyy more trouble than it is worth. Not to mention there are about a hundred loopholes. If you are auctioning off a high end pin you would have to be EXTREMELY thorough in setting your reserving rules and chances are, you will miss something. You might say, "Offer must include a DA LE 100 Stitch pin" and then someone offers you this ugly thing [Pinpics]43052[/Pinpics]. Oh....sorry....what I meant to say is "Offer must include a DA LE 100 Stitch pin except: 43052,45256, 45648,85694,23215,.......". The list of caveats could go on forever. Not all pins are created equal!!! Just because a pin is an LE 100 Stitch doesn't mean that it is really valuable, and just because a pin is an LE 1000, 2000, or OE doesn't mean it isn't. So, right off the bat, in order to have a quantifiable reserve you have to be very specific.

Can you make a very restrictive reserve? Of course you can! As long people know what it is before hand. The danger is you won't successfully auction off your pin. On eBay, I can place a $1,000 reserve on my Pin 1; I doubt it will ever hit it.

However, you examples changes the rules in the middle of the action. That has already been prohibited by DPF.

So ok....let's say you are very specific now and say only pins on your wants list and you think you are covered. Then someone comes in and actually offers you a pin from your wants list and your gut just doesn't like it, what can you do? I'll tell you what you can do....you can take it off your wants list! That is a disaster just waiting to happen because it allows the person auctioning the pin to change the rules as they go.

AgThat of course is a problem - and violates DPF's rules. You can't change the rules during the middle of the auction. It also probably constitutes fraud. However, it also easy to prove - the bidder simply PDFs the persons wants list (if the reserve was simply "a pin on my wants list").

At the end of the day, in order to have a quantifiable reserve you basically need to list the exact pins you would be willing to accept, and at that point, it isn't an auction, it is a trade thread. There is no point whatsoever of conducting an auction that only two people could potentially qualify for. It is just taking up space and mucking up the boards.

Again, you dont need an "exact" pin you are looking for. Your reserve can be anything quantifiable - from no hidden mickeys to no pirate pins to at least one stitch (or some type of combinations). The fact that some people are exclude from bidding, IMO, is irrelevent to the question if reserves are allowed.

If auctions are not your thing, then simply ignore them. They are no longer mucking up the trade boards, but their own forum.

kajtdd

 

[unibear]

I wonder if the way to solve the "no reserve" issue is to restart the "reserve" auctions in the Pin Trading section. Then, if they get to be popular and become an annoyance to those looking for normal trades and not those silly auctions, perhaps the MODS will move them into the Auction House and change the "no reserve" rule.

Has anyone thought of doing a "reserve" trade auction in the Pin Trading section lately?

 

[erudolf]

Um... Auctions simply are not trades threads. Unlike a trade thread, neither party cannot simply back out; there is no option for it to "fall through". The parties have already pre-agreed to trade based on a winning bid. Hence, they are contracts. Niether party cannot simply go back on them. If I offer my Pin 1799 for auction, and the only bid is Pin 1, then both parties have to go through. If I offer my Pin 1 for auction, and someone decides to offer Pin 1799, and that is the winning bid, then both parties still have to trade. My example is extreme, but if you seriously believe someone would not sue over a $100 dollars, then I might recommend watching People's Court, Judge Judy, etc.

I see no difference between an agreed upon auction and a pre-trade or pre-sale or a trade that was agreed upon and then someone backs out for one reason or another. They are all agreements, or in your terms "contracts".

As for people taking this stuff to people's court - blah....if that's the kind of people we're dealing with here then I'd rather not trade at all. And I'd say that the reserving concept would bring up more disputes due to the fact that people would argue over whether a bid qualified or not.

Can you make a very restrictive reserve? Of course you can! As long people know what it is before hand. The danger is you won't successfully auction off your pin. On eBay, I can place a $1,000 reserve on my Pin 1; I doubt it will ever hit it.

However, you examples changes the rules in the middle of the action. That has already been prohibited by DPF.

Again - what's the point? A restrictive reserve takes away the whole point of the auction. If you are wanting something specific, why auction it??? If we are going to relate these to real cash auctions that's like saying "I'll accept dollar bills but only if the serial number ends in '5'".

AgThat of course is a problem - and violates DPF's rules. You can't change the rules during the middle of the auction. It also probably constitutes fraud. However, it also easy to prove - the bidder simply PDFs the persons wants list (if the reserve was simply "a pin on my wants list").

Ever hear of Photoshop??? We've all seen the amazing signatures people make. Even I could fake a wants list with my measly Paint. A PDF proves nothing. To actually prove if a pin was or wasn't on a wants list at a point in time you would need to get Pinpics involved and I don't even know if they keep historical or transactionable records like that. Also, there used to be a bug (not sure if it is still an issue) where people would post a picture on the forum and if you clicked on it the pin would get added to your wants or trades list. I know I've found stuff on my lists before and had no idea how it got there. So what if that happens.

This isn't as cut and dry as people are making it out to be.

Again, you dont need an "exact" pin you are looking for. Your reserve can be anything quantifiable - from no hidden mickeys to no pirate pins to at least one stitch (or some type of combinations). The fact that some people are exclude from bidding, IMO, is irrelevent to the question if reserves are allowed.
kajtdd

Again, those examples of reserves are way to vague to do any good. Unless you are very specific on what pins you will take, there will be loopholes and the person may not like the offers that come in.

And when it comes down to it, from the sound of it the reserving you are talking about isn't the reserving people are wanting. To me, it sounds like some people just want the ability to say "nah, never mind, I don't like any of these offers so I'm not going to trade it".

If auctions are not your thing, then simply ignore them. They are no longer mucking up the trade boards, but their own forum.

kajtdd

Auctions are my thing and I have run four of them thus far - each one of them with no reserve - and have overall been pleased with the outcomes. What is making it not fun is seeing all the complaining about the new rules. People are even complaining in the auction threads themselves saying that the new rules make bidding not as fun - which makes no sense to me because as of yet the bidders don't seem to be impacted.

I would say - if you don't like the "no reserve" rule on the auctions, then simply ignore them. You can conduct things however you want in the separate trade forum and auctions are separate now so they aren't mucking up the trade boards.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

An auction is a contract, a trade agreement is not. If an auction was to fall through, and someone really wanted to, they could print the forum rules, print you auction thread, take you to court, and likely win. A trade agreement, until addresses are exchanged, nothing could be done legally. I am not a lawyer, but I believe this is the case.

"If auctions are not your thing, then simply ignore them. They are no longer mucking up the trade boards, but their own forum." ~kajtdd
agreed.

about reserves....
first, understand I am both for and against them. Hard to enforce a "percieved value." But at the same time, do I want someone to win my DA100 for 5 hidden mickeys? I mean really? Fortuntly, we can all be sort of "on your honor" regarding bids, because everyone sees what you bid. Someone consistantly bids B.S. pins for nice pins is likely going to loose face/respect here on the forum. While its not a physical motivator, it is a strong mental motivator to be fair with our bid offers.

 

[Cicada]

since this is a new thing for DPf (and the trading community as a whole), we're still fleshing out the details regarding pin auctions.

The rules are not retroactive, so any auctions dated before the rules were posted, are not subject to the new rules.

however, any auctions posted AFTER the date of the new rules, are, obviously, subject to the new rules.

as we go forward, and rules are revised (regarding reserves, etc.), the same will apply (not retroactive).


Thanks for your patience through this process.

 

[erudolf]

An auction is a contract, a trade agreement is not. If an auction was to fall through, and someone really wanted to, they could print the forum rules, print you auction thread, take you to court, and likely win. A trade agreement, until addresses are exchanged, nothing could be done legally. I am not a lawyer, but I believe this is the case.

Trades have fallen through after addresses have been exchanged before. It has even been posted about here. So, again, how is that different? With Pre-sales money and addresses are exchanged....so can everyone sue their seller if they don't follow through? I see no distinction.

Saying something is or isn't a contract is not going to improve your chances of getting something someone promised you if you are dealing with the wrong person. If everyone followed the rules and fulfilled their obligations (contractual or not) there wouldn't be a feedback or dispute resolution process. We can call it whatever, that doesn't make it so. And even if it does, that doesn't make it honored.