Scrapper Solution Brainstorming

[jjgasman]

We can all agree that the scrapper problem is significant, frustrating, annoying, and disappointing. Why don't we use the collective creativity and dedication of this forum to brainstorm a possible solution that we can promote to the powers that be within the Disney corporation?

For example, while it cannot be a crime for someone to trade a scrapper within the parks, it is a crime to sell these pins. This is no different than selling a knockoff Gucci purse, for which people are rounded up, merchandise confiscated, etc.

The only caveat and concern I have is that Disney is willing to look the other way, because scrappers actually increase their bottom-line by drawing attention to the pins, etc.

Any other ideas, solutions, or just bellyaching about this?

 

[Abyssinian28]

While I appreciate the "git r' done" attitude, there really is no solution.

IF Disney wanted to spend the money to crack down on their factories, they MIGHT be able to stop the majority (not all) of it. However, it's money that they're not going to spend, because while scrappers are annoying and can definitely peeve a bunch of us off, they don't put a huge dent in their business. They would rather put that money to use somewhere else, like building a new extension on Fantasyland.

Also, it's entirely possible that the situation is too big for them to tackle. China is wayyyyyyyy out of control with their bootlegging, of any and everything. They laugh in the face of international copyright laws. I'd imagine it would be an impossible task to get any of it under control.

You mention Gucci purses...it might be that, once they get over here, the police crack down on them. However, it doesn't stop it at all, does it? You can still find them, if you know where to look. At while the Gucci people (and other high-end designers) might stay on top of the major offenders, for every Gucci crackdown, there are Flea Markets all around the US with knock off EVERYTHINGS. They just aren't high-end brand knock-offs.

So while it's all very nice to think of solutions, IMO, the only REAL solution would come one of two ways:

1.) China changes their laws (yeah, right)'
2.) Disney gets serious

Until that, it's buyer beware. All we can do is try to educate those who find their way into the community. I'm afraid those poor casual traders will likely never even know (with us as collateral, due to them unknowingly dumping scrappers on lanyards on their trips).

 

[hopemax]

I think the best thing we can do, is to become more knowledgeable about the counterfeits ourselves. I mentioned in the resolution thread, that one of my resolutions was to find out if there was interest in a community project to identify the differences between the counterfeits and real pins. I will post a thread today, in the comparison forum.

But I have thought, if I ever got another opportunity to attend a shareholder's meeting, I would like to ask a question: "With so much focus on anti-piracy in other areas of the company, why is it impossible to get an official statement regarding the piracy in the pin trading/collecting area of Disney merchandise?" I think part of the problem, is the people with the actual power to do anything about the Chinese factories, don't know that there is a problem, or how widespread a problem it is. It's only the lower level pin managers, and maybe a few people in legal who are tasked with handing the emails that people forward. And they don't have the power to do anything.

 

[bwschultz]

I think it is important to report your findings. If enough people start reporting, maybe just maybe Disney will start looking into this. You can report your concerns to Disney using this link. Just hit on the email link and you can email them directly:

The Walt Disney Company and its subsidiaries own the intellectual property rights to the characters, brands, titles and properties popularly associated with the Disney name and with Disney's affiliates. This includes a large number of titles, characters and other elements from Disney's television programs, feature-length motion pictures, animated productions, publications, games and music. Disney takes the enforcement of these rights very seriously. We protect these rights so that we can continue to provide quality entertainment that measures up to the standards that our audience has come to love and expect. We welcome reports of suspected infringement of any of these rights. Please direct reports to us via one of the following methods:

Email: tips@disneyantipiracy.com

Voice Mail: 818-560-3300

Mail:The Walt Disney Company

Antipiracy Group

500 South Buena Vista Street

Burbank, California 91521-0644

​

is just as bad about allowing counterfit/scrapper pins to be sold.
You can report ebay sellers who knowingly sell counterfit/scrapper pins as follows:

To report an item on ebay you go to the listing and in the area to the right, under the sellers info area where it says Print |Report item

You enter the report item and just follow the instructions.

Once you are in the Report item, then selected Reason for Report: counterfit and copyright violations.
Then under Detailed Reasons select potential trademark infringement.
Then under Additional Information select other replica or counterfit items.
Then hit Continue then you get to type in a brief description. You get 100 character to do so. (not enough in my opinion)

​

You are right, nothing will be done unless the Big-Wigs at Disney or eBay do something about it. But we do not have stand by quietly either.

 

[jjgasman]

I like these ideas. Another avenue might be reporting to the USPS as mail fraud. Of course, there's a difference between someone who sells 50 pins and there are a few scrappers as compared with someone who sells 1000's of pins the majority of which are scrappers. It's also difficult to "argue" with their near 100% positive feedback on Ebay. If one of us complains, we look like the disgruntled lunatic.

 

[niknaxx]

I like these ideas. Another avenue might be reporting to the USPS as mail fraud. Of course, there's a difference between someone who sells 50 pins and there are a few scrappers as compared with someone who sells 1000's of pins the majority of which are scrappers. It's also difficult to "argue" with their near 100% positive feedback on Ebay. If one of us complains, we look like the disgruntled lunatic.

VERY true!!! I had purchased pins from an ebay seller (Hong Kong Resort pins). I knew they were LE and hard to find, but I paid good money for them so figured I was getting what I thought was a real pin. ROFL. Ya right!!! I read up on pinpics before purchasing, made sure the picture of the item matched the "real" description of the pin vs the description of the scrapper. Well they matched so I thought I was good to go. I received the pins - the paint was nearly missing in some parts of the pins, they were lighter than a dime in weight and extreemly rough around the edges. I kindly wrote the seller and said that I was not satisified with my purachase as I feel they are fake (due to the fact she was relisting them faster than the factories can make them) and they are LE so should couldn't possibly have ALL of them. Anyway, she wrote back and said well I have never ever had someone return a pin due to this accusation. She went on to tell me that she has acquired all of her pins purchased directly from Disney blah blah blah... Long story short, I sent the pins back to her, I got my money back... but someone else is going to get the same pins thinking they are real.
With all of that said.. she had a feedack rating of 99.9%... sooooo, I have to FULLY agree with the feedback ratings of the sellers and the "disgruntled buyer" argument. The problem is, people out there have NO CLUE what is real and what isn't. Parents are happy about getting some CHEAP pins in a large lot for their kids to go trade with in the parks. So of course, they give great feedback, not realizing what they have received is not a genuine Disney pin.
This is an unfortunate situation we are all in.

 

[hopemax]

I remembered one thing I wish Disney would do. I found the 2010 HM pins on display at DTD Pin Traders. I did use this display to verify some fakes. I wish there was a PTU "Library" somewhere at both WDW and DLR, where one pin, from each batch of pins (if they received multiple batches) for all the series were on display, and people could visit to check for fakes. Even if something like this were available only at the Epcot Pin Event. It would be better if people could "register" how many fakes they had, so Disney could see how big of an issue this is.

But somehow I can't see Disney giving up retail, or office space for something like this.

 

[breagirl]

Hope-I like your suggestion simply because it would be great to compare (I did this myself at DTD where they had a display of current HM) AND it makes the general public who probably have no clue learn about scrappers, etc.

Here's how I personally "hopefully" helped. This weekend, while set up at Epcot, I had several pins on the table turned over so that people could see the signs of scrappers. When people would ask to trade for those pins, ESPECIALLY children, I would explain to them that I couldn't have them give me one of their good pins for something that was not originally intended to be traded. I gave many scrappers away this weekend because I personally didn't want to retrade them (even though I got them in trades) and I tried to identify children that had no pins so that hopefully the scrapper I gave them wouldn't get recirculated into the pin trading community.

Until this weekend, I really didn't realize what a HUGE problem this is. I can't begin to tell you how many people came up to my table at Epcot wanting to trade and they would proceed to pull their huge baggy of pins out of the bags and tell me how they got 100 pins on ebay for $50. They were horrible fakes and although I hate to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm not going to contribute to this pattern by trading for them. The only exception I made to this were children who obviously didn't know better, but I just explained to their parents why it's important to buy directly from Disney, showed them the fake pins and then I would just give the child the pin they wanted without taking the scrapper in return.

I love pin trading and collecting, but it's the people that make it fun for me. I truly wish Disney would spend the money to tighten up things in the factories but I don't see them doing it. Matter of fact, I was shocked at how much smaller the pin displays were at Walt Disney World. They took the pin store out of Main Street in MK and now only have a cart, they took the huge pin area out of the store at DTD and now just have the pin traders store and small display of pins in the Disney Store there...it was all just very sad.

 

[erudolf]

I would have to say that I agree that the best thing we can do is what we are already doing. Stay informed and report what we find. To add to Abyssinian28's list, I think there is one other thing that may stop them.....and that is the end of pin trading/collecting. If people stopped collecting and stopped paying the money for the pins it would no longer be profitable to them and they would move on to the next thing they can rip off. And even if that did happen, if there were ever a revival of pin collecting they would be right back in the game as long as it was profitable again.

I'm not saying I want pin collecting to die....but scenario is just as likely to happen as the other two, if not more.

 

[HeatherFeather]

Here's an idea....bring manufacturing of pins to the United States. I think Disney would maintain much more control over the scrapping issue and maybe QC might improve. (then again, maybe not!) Of course that will NEVER happen.

 

[Abyssinian28]

::nods to all of this::

Although, Erudolf, I'd bet what's more likely than the complete dying of pin trading and collecting would be a return to the levels of the early 2000s. Even if the fad or hobby of pin trading dies down, I think people will still buy *some* pins. I was buying ones from the Disney store before 2000, so there's always an interest, even if it isn't BIG.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Here's an idea....bring manufacturing of pins to the United States. I think Disney would maintain much more control over the scrapping issue and maybe QC might improve. (then again, maybe not!) Of course that will NEVER happen.

I'd say it's more likely to happen in the coming years than it ever has before, but something big and probably horrible would have to happen before all the major companies pull out of China. And unfortunately, rather than come back to the States, they'd likely just pick a different country. I've seen a lot more stuff produced in Vietnam and China lately.

 

[jjgasman]

Do you think there's a way that on Pinpics there could be a way to post a 2nd picture next to the original picture, one with the real deal and one with the scrapper?

 

[hopemax]

Because I can't help but think about it. I'm afraid that Disney may decide the easiest course of action to take is to just eliminate CM lanyard trading altogether. That would certainly kill the market for the cheap end of the counterfeits. Not that it would help with the high end, like DA pins.

 

[erudolf]

::nods to all of this::

Although, Erudolf, I'd bet what's more likely than the complete dying of pin trading and collecting would be a return to the levels of the early 2000s. Even if the fad or hobby of pin trading dies down, I think people will still buy *some* pins. I was buying ones from the Disney store before 2000, so there's always an interest, even if it isn't BIG.

I guess I should clarify....what I mean by "dying" is that people wouldn't be spending big dollars for a pin like they do today and in the past. Sure, people would still pick up pins from the parks here and there, but it wouldn't be as much of an "organized" hobby. Kind of like pressed pennies I guess....I know people collect them, but they aren't nearly as popular as pins nor as big of a dollar value.

I guess I'm just saying that pins would have to return to the status of a souvineer rather than a collectible in order for the counterfieters not want to bother with them.

 

[jjgasman]

I don't see any of these things happening. Let's be honest; if you're a high-level exec with Disney, you want people buying pins. Even if they are buying scrappers from outside, they are stimulated to the whole pin thing, which will result in them purchasing new pins at the parks. A few hundred disgruntled pin traders/collectors isn't going to change things.

I've changed my mind and now agree that the best thing we can do is educate ourselves and others, and point out the fraud peddlers to the proper authorities (WDW, Ebay, and the USPS).

 

[hinubite]

I was just thinking about this while I was at WDW. And some questions kind of popped into my head (feel free to have a go at 'em!)

(kind of random! lol): If every person that traded bought cuties for CM trading pins, isn't what disney does similar as with scrappers? They take them off the lanyards and refresh them right? hence hidden mickeys. So if lanyards are over run with cuties or scrappers isn't the end result the same? Please don't think that I'm saying it's ok to buy then trade scrappers by any means! They're just thinking questions, lol.

Also, if you get a pin that you've traded an authentic (meaning purchased from disney pin) and you trade it on a lanyard for something that is a scrapper, what do you do? You don't want to trade it back onto a lanyard, does it make you as bad as the people who knowingly buy then trade scrappers if you do? or do you just take the $4-$5 loss each time it happens?

Let me know what you guys think!

Thanks!
Andrew Z

 

[Kmcwi]

I agree with many of the comments in this thread and suggest that what is missing is awareness. Here is my example: A couple of years ago a Senior Staff Writer (and blog contributor) for the Orlando Sentinel wrote a piece about pin trading which is still posted on the Orlando Sentinel site. The piece contained the following two excerpts.
"My children saw EPCOT in a new light when they joined the ranks of pin traders. I had resisted the hobby, mostly because of the expense. (Disney pins can start at $7 and increase from there)."
"If you are in the market for a large group of pins - typically lots are 100 pieces - check eBay. This can be the best deal for traders because the pins often average less than $1.50 each. Consider splitting the lot among friends and family."

Now I can assure you that if someone had posted an article in the Orlando Sentinel instructing you to ask for Mr. C in the parking lot of the mall, because he sells Gucci bags cheap from the trunk of his car, there would be a issue. But because buying counterfeit traders is viewed in the same light as stealing paper clips from the office, there is no outcry. It seems harmless.

Maybe one way to raise awareness is to have special lanyards made that are printed with "Stop Counterfeiting" or some more catchy slogan. Then as we wear them in the parks or at events it will spur the dialogue for new and old traders about the problem. What would happen in Sept if the Disney pin personnel came to the event and everyone wore a "stop counterfeiting" lanyard. Might get their attention.

Kurt

 

[hopemax]

The problem is that the people refreshing do not recognize the scrappers as such, and so don't remove them from their lanyard. They do recognize being overrun with cuties and so they think to pull them off. Also, some areas are more prone to refreshing than others. While there are drawers, cabinets, etc that some areas have, others don't and the pins you have will be the pins you have, until maybe you get a new manager who cares more about pins.

As for trading scrappers off lanyards. I admit, I will put them back on the lanyard. It is not my responsibility to be the scrapper police, and I'm not going to take a financial hit to remove a drop of water from an ocean. I will not buy lots on Ebay, I certainly will not put them on my Pinpics list, or trade to another guest like what Breagirl experienced.

Some people recommend asking to see the back of the pin before you trade. But what's really the difference between leaving a fake on a lanyard after you've seen it, vs trading for it and trading it away? It's still leaving a fake on a lanyard. Plus, from my experience, many times the CMs are already overwhelmed with their jobs and it's much quicker for me to just ask for the one I want, hand off my pin and let them move on to the next guest, than to take up more time by having them remove the pin, look at it, and then say, "No, I don't want this one." While they will let you look at it, I see enough sighing about having to deal with a pin trader, as is.

 

[Gloomy]

The only real solution seems to be bringing production of this stuff over to the US and monitoring it properly to choke off production, then consistently following up and wiping the counterfeit / scrapper dealers off eBay to kill access to the existing stock. I've worked with sports collectible companies that routinely got counterfeit stuff knocked off eBay - we're talking about twenty minute turnarounds from when I reported the listings to the collectible company, to the seller's listings being removed. So it's not impossible. Yes, there will still be overseas wholesalers selling directly to US resellers, but the one-two punch is going to address the problem of innocent tourist types and newbies buying lots off eBay. At that point it just becomes an issue of finding the US resellers maintaining their own online stores, against whom legal action could assumedly be taken under US law.

I know that bringing production into the US would cost more - Disney's making this stuff in China for a reason, after all. But honestly, with the markup we pay for pins already, that doesn't seem unreasonable. I may be new to this hobby, but after reading about the history of pin trading and observing shrinking edition sizes on pins, it's pretty clear that the collectibility of this past time has suffered tremendously. I really think Disney needs to stop the counterfeiting if they want their pin product lines to continue growing in revenue.

-JD

 

[flaneur]

Create a new character called Scrap. (He's a mangy one, with rough edges and unfinished parts.) Then start a game called "Trap Scrap!" (â„¢), where legions of excited young fans have to search each other's lanyards for "Scrappers". These "Scrappers" (with rough edges and questionable lineage) would be highly sought after in the Trap Scrap!â„¢ community. Fans will be heartbroken after searching CM lanyards in vain for these rare, mythical objects. Because fans will hunger for Trap Scrap!â„¢ nostalgia, an entire line of custom lanyards, movies, cartoons, trading cards, and Scrapylmationsâ„¢ will be born.

Btw, I'm in the middle of a South Parkâ„¢ Netflixâ„¢ marathon, so my idiocy should border on genius. :rofl:

 

[Tiki]

I am also hopping on the, "Bring the manufacturing to America" bandwagon. We have different(let me restate this, We have copy write laws period) here the mfg companies in China will get an order for 50,000 pins from Disney, make 200,000 and sell the rest at a small profit to the ebay scum sellers. This is the only way Disney can keep an eye on things,

PS: Just become a seller on ebay who is selling 10,000 trading pins claims they traded for all the pins at Disneyland does not make them not liars.... I like the seller selling lot after lot of 100-500 pins claiming they traded for them at Disneyland when the live a thousand miles away. This is your clue they are scumbags

 

[breagirl]

I, personally, took the hit this time and it sucks. I figured between the pins the lady basically stole from me and then all the scrappers we unintentionally got off lanyards, we basically lost about $400 worth of pins this weekend. So, here's my lesson from this:

I am only going to collect the themes that I love (which I have been doing) but basically going to stick with trading on pinpics and then hopefully at a trading night or event (if I ever get to one). From now on, when trading in person (not with a CM), I will ask to see the back of the pin and spend a few more seconds during the trade than I did this weekend. We don't collect hidden mickeys which are the bulk of scrappers that I saw this weekend. For my children (who could care less about a scrapper), when we are at the parks, I will keep my mouth shut. If they get a scrapper, so be it, as they don't know the difference and I don't want the joy of the hobby to be lost a little bit, like it was for me this weekend. It's just shocking to me how much things have changed since October 2009 when we were there last.

The whole thing is just disheartening, especially when I get home and get a pin in the mail (it was a zap and much appreciated) that is a scrapper. It's the Tiana lamppost pin and it just makes me sick that they continue to scrap nicer and nicer pin. I do want to jump on the bandwagon of bringing the pin production to the US.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Create a new character called Scrap. (He's a mangy one, with rough edges and unfinished parts.) Then start a game called "Trap Scrap!" (â„¢), where legions of excited young fans have to search each other's lanyards for "Scrappers". These "Scrappers" (with rough edges and questionable lineage) would be highly sought after in the Trap Scrap!â„¢ community. Fans will be heartbroken after searching CM lanyards in vain for these rare, mythical objects. Because fans will hunger for Trap Scrap!â„¢ nostalgia, an entire line of custom lanyards, movies, cartoons, trading cards, and Scrapylmationsâ„¢ will be born.

Btw, I'm in the middle of a South Parkâ„¢ Netflixâ„¢ marathon, so my idiocy should border on genius. :rofl:

:rock:

 

[rubyslipperedgoddess]

Ebay, USPS and Disney itself have all been mentioned as possible reportable resources, but the law is also on your side. The FBI investigates fraud as well. If you buy a counterfeit pin on ebay that has been listed as legitimate that is considered internet fraud and the FBI takes that very seriously, especially if it involves an international transaction. Even trading a pin via pinpics is considered internet fraud since your interaction with the dishonest party took place online. So if someone trades or sells you a counterfeit pin and doesn't make amends for it, contact the FBI's internet fraud department. Maybe if we make the government aware we won't need Disney to do anything that will affect their profit margin, but rather the government can make stricter piracy fraud laws. Below is a link to the FBI internet fraud division. Change cannot happen unless you take a stand.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx