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Curious about a policy we have....

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I would assume it's just to defuse any potential drama before it actually happened I guess. Each to their own really - if people want to sell pins on eBay then that's their prerogative I guess.
 
Not a policy maker, but I think first and foremost, there is a confusion as to whether this is a public forum. I don't believe it is one.

It also has to do with being sued. Even though there is ample case authority (in CA) that precludes liability for the owner/operator of the forum, that does not preclude a lawsuit if someone here were to defame someone else, the person who was defamed would (no doubt) sue the operator of the forum, causing unnecessary attorneys' fees to be incurred.
 
starry_solo said:
Not a policy maker, but I think first and foremost, there is a confusion as to whether this is a public forum. I don't believe it is one.

It also has to do with being sued. Even though there is ample case authority (in CA) that precludes liability for the owner/operator of the forum, that does not preclude a lawsuit if someone here were to defame someone else, the person who was defamed would (no doubt) sue the operator of the forum, causing unnecessary attorneys' fees to be incurred.
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In the US, is there anything people can't sue one another over? Some of the frivolous law suits I've seen over time actually are beyond belief.
 
It's probably to protect the ebay seller... even if they botched a sale or did something wrong. There are always 2 sides to every story... so it would be unfair to call out an ebay member when they don't have the opportunity to defend themselves. Plus, it could've been just a slip up, and their whole ebay business could be destroyed if people called them out.

Just my opinion on why the forum might prohibit this type of behavior.
 
Ryan-Pins said:
In the US, is there anything people can't sue one another over? Some of the frivolous law suits I've seen over time actually are beyond belief.
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I second that. I'm an aspiring Barrister in Criminal law and Human Rights, and I just cringe sometimes at American Law and the constant amount of law suits. It's as if when one person does something, the other person instantly says 'I'm gonna sue you'. Just my 2 cents, don't sue me.
 
Oh, I hadn't thought about defamation issues. Since the rule is against mention of ebay sellers in any context, whether positive or negative, I had always assumed the reasoning behind it was that this is not a cash auction site and so the forum does not want to be taken to be promoting/supporting any ebay sellers or sales.
 
It has nothing to do with being sued (and if it does, that's just paranoia). I collect _MANY_ things, and am a member of _MANY_ forums for collecting those things (and a moderator on a few, and own one myself), and every single forum has a 'black list' section and/or buyer seller feedback section. The black lists and feedback section are for members of the forum, and sellers in the collecting community at large (including eBay). There (was) even an eBay black list of pin sellers on another forum (it was either PinPic's forum, or the old Yuku one, can't remember).

This is a way to protect people against getting ripped off. I don't understand why this forum doesn't want to offer it's member that protection, but no one is going to sue the forum because someone called them out for ripping them off.

Remember, slander and defamation of character is telling _LIES_ about someone to make them look bad. But if someone is selling fake items, or just taking your money and never shipping things, they should absolutely be called out, IN PUBLIC. Taking care of it secretly (i.e., via PMs), just protects the criminal from being identified and allows them to prey on more people. If it turns out to be a legitimate mistake, the sellers reputation won't be damaged if they apologize and make things right.

This is, literally, the only collecting forum I've ever been to that has rules in place that seem to specifically protect the people that would want to rip off collectors... I'm sure that's not the intent, but I honestly can't think of a good reason why the rule is in place.

And it's not just calling people out for problems, this is also the only collecting forum I belong to that you can't just post a link to an eBay auction at all... I can't even put a link here to _my own_ auctions to let members her know I'm selling something you might want. This is a forum for the pin collecting community, and eBay is definitely a part of that community. There's no reason to arbitrarily ban talking about it or posting links to it, either for information, or to promote a sale. If they have some issue with the 'promoting a sale' part, they could make a special sub-forum just for posting links to _your own_ auctions. I've seen that done on other sites before too...

A lot of valuable information/learning (especially for new collectors) is being suppressed by these rules... Like a new collector won't know to not buy a huge lot of 25-50 pins from eBay because we can't post links to those auctions/sellers and explain that they are selling scrappers or counterfeits... How many times have you seen a new member post all excited about a huge batch of pins they bought only to have someone tell them they bought a bunch of fakes from a seller _we_ all know sells them?
 
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I don't know why, but I do agree with the policy. I have bought pins on eBay and even here on the forum. I have been lucky not to get a scrapper from the bay, but I have received scrappers from here. When contacted, everyone apologized and made the situation correct. Now people who sell here are very well of scrappers, but sometimes a fake slips through. Also, members have lives and situations arrive and they may sell, then ship the pins and life happens and they may leave the forum for a little bit. Now should the buyer yell bloody murder and tarnish their name without allowing them to rectify the situation? Same thing could happen on the bay. Plus I remember a situation where a member got the Designer Couple set and was chastise for selling on eBay for a lot more $$$$$$$ instead of being helpful and selling it here in the forum for a tad more than what it cost them. It's best not to instigate a situation and allow private PMs. Also you can PM certain members who have a list of whose who in bad traders and sellers. :soapbox:
 
I am well aware that defamation (of which slander and libel are types of defamation, one spoken, one written) is all about lies. Truth is defense to such a cause of action. But again, a defense. Which means after a lawsuit is filed and fees are incurred, you can get out of the case (although one should easily get out of the lawsuit with the way the law is in CA but one never knows what the court will do.)
 
Psycho Pixie said:
check this out.... from Jess, global mod.

http://disneypinforum.com/showthrea...Bay-Sellers-and-or-Bad-Trades-Sales-Purchases
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Just because it was posted 2 yrs ago doesn't mean it couldn't change. I personally think we should have a thread where people who deserve to be blacklisted should be listed and named. IF you show up on the list, tell your side of the story.

For anyone that doesn't like what I say.....................................Sue me!!! :poke::poke:
 
Rasputin said:
Just because it was posted 2 yrs ago doesn't mean it couldn't change. I personally think we should have a thread where people who deserve to be blacklisted should be listed and named. IF you show up on the list, tell your side of the story.

For anyone that doesn't like what I say.....................................Sue me!!! :poke::poke:
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Took a look at your traders, must say wow! So I need you to send me your name so I may list you as a defended in my lawsuit to get your pins :naughty:
 
I believe the policy exists because that's what the policies were over on Dizpins. They were just adopted here, because "that's what they've always been." I believe Dizpins instituted policies because of specific threatened legal action against them, but I don't know what that was. But I do remember them saying that Dizpins didn't have the financial resources to fight any potential legal battles, so they were protecting themselves from a situation from rising it's head, by saying "no" to a public blacklist. I know other hobbies certainly have blacklists, but Disney pin collecting has always had its particular brand of crazy, so I don't know if other hobbies ever had someone want to actually sue someone.
 
Rasputin said:
Just because it was posted 2 yrs ago doesn't mean it couldn't change. I personally think we should have a thread where people who deserve to be blacklisted should be listed and named. IF you show up on the list, tell your side of the story.

For anyone that doesn't like what I say.....................................Sue me!!! :poke::poke:
Click to expand...

Love the "poking the bear" mentality that you seem to have! LOL
 
starry_solo said:
I am well aware that defamation (of which slander and libel are types of defamation, one spoken, one written) is all about lies. Truth is defense to such a cause of action. But again, a defense. Which means after a lawsuit is filed and fees are incurred, you can get out of the case (although one should easily get out of the lawsuit with the way the law is in CA but one never knows what the court will do.)
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But you still have to consider one, VERY important thing: Do you really think someone is actually going to file a lawsuit over a pin transaction? If people filed lawsuits every time they got screwed over on eBay, NOTHING else would happen in the US court system, EVER. Personally, I've never heard of a single forum being sued for anything (although I don't doubt that it's probably happened)...

I think all the 'We can't do that or we'd get sued' yelling is more rampant than actual lawsuits. If someone sold a scrapper, that's easily proved. Sure, they can say it wasn't intentional (and maybe it wasn't), but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. Telling a cop I didn't _mean_ to drive 70 in a 60mph zone has never gotten me out of a ticket. And what's he going to sue _FOR_? He can't say libel, he DID sell a scrapper. That's a completely honest statement. Now, if someone said 'All he sells are scrappers', that might be different, but since no one person could even attempt to prove that, it'd be a pretty stupid thing to say...

If it was an honest mistake, I seriously doubt anyone here is going to hate you forever. In fact, I'd trust someone more if they were called out for selling a scrapper, and the immediately responded with an apology and made things right.

And I'm not saying call out everyone the instant it happens. Always try to communicate first. Black listing someone is after they've not only sold you a fake pin (or whatever the collectible is), _AND_ they've ignored or refused all requests to correct the problem.

Rasputin said:
Just because it was posted 2 yrs ago doesn't mean it couldn't change. I personally think we should have a thread where people who deserve to be blacklisted should be listed and named. IF you show up on the list, tell your side of the story.
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And that's how it works on every other forum I'm on. And look at it this way- if you are an honest seller, and you know you will be called out in public for making a mistake, you might try a little harder to not make that mistake in the first place. But even if it happens, you apologize, do what's needed to correct it, and everyone is happy. I've never seen anyone 'rep' damaged by being called out for fraudulent activity when they respond with an explanation/apology/willingness to correct the problem.

But even if you do 'make things right', if it's something that one seller does a LOT, I still may not want to deal with you. Some sellers deliberately sell fakes, and then get all apologetic when they get caught (but think of all the times they _didn't_ get caught!) I don't want to deal with them. It's like people on eBay that have 100,000 feedback, but only 99.7%. To me, that means there's hundreds of people they've ripped off/upset, not 10's of thousands that are okay with their transaction. I don't care how many transactions you have, if you are getting complaints of not shipping an item, shipping fake items or shipping broken items by hundreds of people a year, I'm not interested in dealing with you. (You do have to read the feedback though, sometimes even the buyers are just idiots...)

I still stand behind one simple fact: Every other collectibles forum does this, and it's never caused any excessive problems. If an honest seller made an honest mistake and gets called out, they make it right. If it's a seller that really is trying to rip people off, then new people are being informed not to buy from them.

I do have to admit, this forum is more 'drama-y' than any other forum I'm on (in general), so maybe the rule is in place based on past experience or something, but I still think open discussion vs secret, behind the curtains complaining is a much better way to deal with any problem.



But none of this answers the question of why we can't just make references to neat items on eBay (or our own items on eBay for that matter)... ?
 
I was a member of Dave's Garden back when Dave was in charge. They had the garden watchdog as part of the forum that allowed everyone to rate and comment gardening mail order companies. Under threat of legal actions, they had to remove all comments from a certain company because they threatened to sue.
 
ownedbycats said:
I was a member of Dave's Garden back when Dave was in charge. They had the garden watchdog as part of the forum that allowed everyone to rate and comment gardening mail order companies. Under threat of legal actions, they had to remove all comments from a certain company because they threatened to sue.
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They didn't _have_ to, they choose to do it. Which means either they just did it out of blind fear, or there really was slanderous type comments in the thread (which, I will admit, can easily get out of hand if multiple people are involved in the debate). But, in the end, what would have happened? If all the comments were _legit_ complaints, the company would have no basis for a law suit. If people were just bad-mouthing them because they didn't like them, then there's a legitimate complaint to get a court order for the forum to remove the posts... If the 'certain company' was actually breaking the law, you can bet they don't want to be anywhere near a court room, and would never actually sue (and if they do, show up in court and happily display all the proof you have of their legal activities. If you can prove it, who do you think will come out on top?)

And that was the threat of legal action _from a corporation_, that probably has lawyers on their payroll. I can guarantee you that if Disney lawyers contacted DPF and told them to do _anything_, they'd do it without question regardless of whether they like it, or even thought they legally had to. If Disney really does follow through with taking them to court, it's likely to cost more than the forum is worth just to get through the court ordeal, no matter who actually wins...

But that's not a collector forum advising people not to buy from a seller of collectibles on eBay that's selling counterfeit goods. If someone is knowingly selling illegal merchandise (scrappers or counterfeit pins), you can be certain they don't want the attention of Disney brought on them in any way. And I doubt any of them have lawyers at their beck-and-call either.

Corporate litigation isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about, for example, you (as in, anyone on this forum) personally suing the owner of DPF if someone makes a post saying you sold them a counterfeit pin. If you really did sell them a counterfeit pin (either intentionally or accidentally), are you really going to try to sue someone for stating that fact in a public (or private) forum? What, exactly, would you be suing them for?
 
Ok, so lets take an example.... We all know about the "frostycoldbaaay" guy. We all know this person deals in scrap and counterfeits. Even though we know this, and this person has been reported to ebay numerous times for giving people non-authentic pins, they still have a seller account and still exist in the piniverse.

We cannot say the ebay name on here because as much as we would ALL like to see this guy vanish:
  • accusations of counterfeit dealings can cause a legal issue.
  • apparently there is not enough proof for ebay to ban this person, the assumption would be not enough proof for a legal battle.
  • If a forum, public or private, is told that slanderous and false accusations will result in legal action, it is in their best interests to remove said accusations. DPF could NEVER afford a legal battle over something one of it's members said about an ebay seller.
So knowing these things, why would a forum, public or private, allow its members to announce potentially slanderous accusations about an ebay seller?

I would LOVE to have a list of scrap and counterfeit dealers. Goodness it would make life easier. And like everyone else here, I would merrily post my bad experiences, and IF some accused me, defend myself fully. :) Without sueing the forum BTW. But i can actually see why the forum doesnt want to go down that road.
 
I refer you to this now 7-year old California Supreme Court case titled Barrett vs. Rosenthal (2006) 40 Cal.App.4th 33. It reached the California Supreme Court SIX years after the lawsuit was first filed (and after countless attorneys' fees.) Cases going to the CA Supreme Court can cost at least $100,000 in attorney's fees.

A good summary is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_v._Rosenthal

Obviously, one should know (at least in CA) not to file the lawsuit. But will that prevent a person from filing it in pro per. Probably not. Then, the forum operator would have to hire an attorney (probably $5-15,000) to file a motion to dismiss. Should be dismissed on the first instance, but judges have been known to grant leave to amend at least 3-4 times before dismissing an action with prejudice (so that it cannot be filed again.)

Do I think that someone will sue over a pin transaction? Probably not. But if anyone were to start accusing people of selling scrappers without any proof, well, who knows what will happen. Obviously truth is a defense...but what truth are you talking about? Were you at the factory and saw the pins being thrown into the scrap pile and then the pin seller took them from the factory? Who is going to say who is an expert at identifying ALL the designs that Disney manufactures (for counterfeits)? And those nice emails that we get from various sellers offering to sell said scrappers - um, hearsay. Will Disney come forward and say those are scrappers? or fake pins?
 
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