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Enough with the bootleg Vinylmation pins already!!

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Enough with the bootleg Vinylmation pins already!!
One thing I don't think anybody mentioned yet is that the pins Chris makes are identified quite clearly on the back as "Fan Appreciation" pins, and include his real name and website url. There's no Disney copyright, and if anyone felt he was infringing on any of Disney's properties, well, he's done everything he can to welcome a cease and desist save printing his phone number on the backs of the things. He doesn't even distribute them with branded pinbacks as far as I'm aware - just regular metal pinbacks, no mouse ears. I really don't think anyone could mistake these for authorized pins.

Comparing the impact of Chris' work to the impact of scrappers is ridiculous. Scrappers actively hurt the secondary market and individual collectors. The fantasy vinylmation pins Chris makes serve only to enrich the hobby. There's literally no conceivable way that these could damage individuals or pin trading as a whole, and the impact is really quite the opposite.

-JD
 
Rocketeerz, we can agree 100% with what you've said so far, but with the exception of a couple things. We've felt that something was wrong too...ever since HauntedCollector(Evilos) added the 1st Tron pin to Pinpics. Why? Because we saw it on the Pinpics What's New and saw that it was added as a tradeable pin with origin being "Special (Described Below)". So we automatically thought it was a real Disney Vinylmation pin. (We're huge Vinylmation pin fans, so of course it caught our eye....but we only do strictly authentic Disney pins...call us true "Disney purists".) Then as we read the description and searched through the Evilos website, which was provided in the description, we realized that it had no affiliation with Disney. But we figured the listing origin was just a rookie mistake. A few hours later we were looking on Ebay for newly listed Vinylmation pins because Urban #5 Series had just come out. What do we see? That Evilos Tron Vinylmation pin! It was a whopping Buy It Now price of $50! Well, this sent up some pretty big red flags. On one side of the mouth we hear "ONLY given to friends and family" and on the other side of the mouth we hear "you can buy this awesome pin for $$$$$$$$". If we personally were one of the buyers who bought into that and purchased one from him, we'd feel a bit cheated and mislead. And with yet 2 more created and being sold, it's almost like it these pins are being created purely to make money. We're not against people making money, just as long as you have the right to sell the stuff you're trying to push!

Now here's where we have to disagree with you (no offense, Rocketeerz)...

Rocketeerz said:
I'm not saying that Evilos is passing his pins as authentic Disney pins, but...
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We have to disagree for a couple reasons. First, if you look at his eBay auctions for ALL of his Vinylmation pins he lists them as Disneyana. Here is the exact categories he uses on the auctions:

"Listed in category: Collectibles > Disneyana > Contemporary (1968-Now) > Pins, Patches & Buttons > Cast Member Exclusives"

Whoa, whoa, whoa. :nono: That right there is against even Ebay's policies. It is misrepresentation of the item being sold and it is fraud. These items should not be classified in association with Disney AND it's not even a Cast Member Exclusive item to boot!

Next, look at his completed listings for his Vinylmation Evil Kermit pin that he just sold. Do you SEE what's in the title????

"Disney Pin Vinylmation Evil Kermit Gift by Evilos"

Say what?? "DISNEY"??? How is that not passing off a pin as a Disney pin? Again, fraud.

Next, you'll notice in his Vinylmation pin eBay descriptions that he doesn't say that he is affiliated with Disney. However, he also doesn't state that he IS NOT affiliated. So any potential buyers who are looking to buy Disney Vinylmation pins, but have no clue what Evilos is, can be easily mislead to asssume that these are real Disney pins. Why? Again, because he uses Disney's Vinylmationâ„¢ name to describe the pin, he uses Disney's Tron to describe the pin, he uses Disney's Tron Legacy to describe the pin, he uses the Sam Flynn character name to describe the pin, and he uses The Muppets Company/Disney's Kermit name to describe the pin! Now, LOOK at the pin(s). Do these resemble Disney's Vinylmationâ„¢ pin product line? Do the characters on the Tron pins look like Disney's Mickey Mouse? YES! He is illegally using Disney's characters and trademarked Vinylmation title and the pin shape associated with the Vinylmationâ„¢ pin product line.

Here's a closing question/thought to all those who still believe that it's okay that Evilos is making these pins of his: (You don't have to post your answer if you don't want to. Just think about it, completely and non-biased.)

Do you honesty think that if Evilos contacted Disney and asked permission to create Vinylmation pins based off of his own personal Vinylmation Figures using the Mickey Mouse Vinylmation form and Disney characters, that Disney would say "yes"?

 
What happened to the informed consumer? A consumer who knows exactly what they're purchasing? Even if you're not and you end buying an Evilos Vinylmation pin, why did you do so? Just because the pin is made by Disney? Or because of any artistic or emotional attachment you may have with the pin?

Can Evilos use Disney images in his own designs? Can Evilos legally sell these pins? Ultimately, that's between him and Disney, but that shouldn't detract from the quality of his fantasy pins. Demand will remain for these pins, even if they're in the "wrong" eBay category. And those who won't want it, because it isn't authentic Disney, just won't buy it.

In the end, I don't think Evilos is trying to "fool" anyone. He's just trying to get as many eyes from his target market to see his product. Like I said, people should know what they're buying and buy for the right reasons. The story behind a product doesn't end at it's description on eBay.
 

I'm not really sure that it matters whether he is trying to fool people or not. The issue is that what he is doing is quite possibly illegal. No matter how good his work is, I don't think that makes it ok. If it were some random factory in China pushing these out, would that be ok? No. So, to just look the other way just because it is someone that people here actually know is a double standard.

I personally think he should knock it off. If he wants to promote his work then he can sell his one of a kind custom vinylmations, but not produce 100 pins at a time. Better yet, if he wants to promote himself as an artist then he should be doing his own work. I can sympathsize with him there because I love to do artwork but I really only love to do Disney stuff. So, if that is the situation he is in, then he needs to get affiliated with Disney rather than infringe on their copyrights.
 
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Man, erudolf, you're just stealing my words lately.

The poor, small-time artists just trying to make a buck thing doesn't sway me. I know artists. I am an artist. I've done TMNT, Star Trek, and X-Men fanart in the past. I've never sold or profited off it. If I was going to try and make money on my stuff, I'd create original works.

Fanworks are awesome! But I can't condone making money off them.

If his fans really, really want one of his pins, he should offer them for cost to them. He gets to satisfy his creative side without breaking the law.
 
Considering the fact that Chris shows up to PTN's, sets up a full table of custom stuff, hands out copies of his pins to strangers, and makes no effort to hide what he's doing from CM's, I don't think Disney really cares. I mean, they were the ones that drew on street art culture in the first place, wading pretty deep into a medium that's all about repurposing property to create something new, unique, and cool. I think the real wonder is that we haven't seen Chris doing officially sanctioned and distributed work for Disney yet, but I'd imagine that'll be somewhere down the line. He really is passionate about this stuff, and his work seems to be right up there with the official stuff in quality, even though he doesn't have the production resources wielded by Disney.

Magicalpins, to answer your question, I think if Chris were to do what you're suggesting his inquiry would be "mysteriously" lost in a chain of command. I doubt anyone that could be easily reached via phone would be able to give an immediate "yes," but at the same time, it's in Disney's interests not to say "no," either. Artists like Chris are good for Disney's business in my opinion.

Here's another question, since we're in a question-asking mood: why is there a thread about this, but not one about the constant flood of low-grade pornographic fantasy pins featuring Disney characters that are widely sold on eBay? Both are bringing in money through the creation and sale of unauthorized works, but one seems obviously offensive, and downright negative for Disney's brand image. The other contributes to the depth and character of the Vinylmation product line, lending it the kind of style and street cred that are tough to buy with even the hugest of marketing budgets. I mean, let's be honest: we're talking about Munnies with mouse ears on 'em. While I don't claim clairvoyance, and hope not to insult anyone, it sure looks like someone from Disney saw Kidrobot designs and thought, "Hey, we can make some cash off THAT!" Seeing real artists, influenced by street art, actually embracing what seemed like a shaky proposition at its outset, is incredibly bolstering for the Vinylmation brand. If Disney had half a dozen more Christopher Avalos-types running around, the scene that would spring up around the Vinylmation niche would make Vinylmation sales even crazier than they are now.

Framings things in that light, I'm not really understanding the beef some folks have with this. Or why there's no beef with the lower quality, dispassionately crafted, bluntly offensive fantasy pins that are mass-produced and omni-present on eBay.

-JD
 
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Gloomy said:
Here's another question, since we're in a question-asking mood: why is there a thread about this, but not one about the constant flood of low-grade pornographic fantasy pins featuring Disney characters that are widely sold on eBay?
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Start one! I think those pins are disgusting and that they all should be destroyed!

Also, I don't think it would be right if Disney was copying work either. In fact, it irks me when they get lazy and copy their own artwork...
 
Once again, with Erodulf. I can't speak for why the original poster has a hate-on for this particular subject, but what I saw here goes for selling off ANY fan-created works.

Also, I think it's slimy when Disney steals fanart and crafts it into a pin/whatever. They've done it several times, and it's downright wrong. The characters might be theirs, but the pose, time, and effort of the fanartist means that part of that art is NOT Disney's, and they should have to pay for the work done, or just *leave it alone*. In most cases, I'm sure it's some deadline-desperate Disney artist that steals the image and passes it off as theirs, and management has no idea it's ripped off.
 

erudolf said:
Also, I don't think it would be right if Disney was copying work either. In fact, it irks me when they get lazy and copy their own artwork...
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Abyssinian28 said:
Also, I think it's slimy when Disney steals fanart and crafts it into a pin/whatever. They've done it several times, and it's downright wrong.
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Everyone with such awesome points. I love you guys! :hug:
 
I guess I just have a totally different perspective. I contract with a license (a trading card game / anime) where customers frequently create their own artwork of copyrighted characters; print those designs onto mats; and then take them to tournaments (or sell them to people who do). On one hand, is it copyright infringement? Well, while I'm not actually sure it's copyright infringement in Chris' case, it definitely is in mine; but at the same time, those printed mats don't necessarily interfere with the core business of the licensor. They do definitely grow fandom, make the hobby more personalized, and create a pseudo magic-moment effect that strengthens brand attachment.

I also rub shoulders at times with people in the comic book industry, or who license comic book properties. Go to any big comic book convention and hit up their Artists' Alley: you'll find plenty of big-name and small-name artists who'll draw you almost anything you want, usually for a fee. Often the fee is substantial (we're talking hundreds upon hundreds of dollars). Is an artist who's currently contracted to DC going to refuse to draw a Marvel character on the grounds of copyright infringement? No. Is Marvel going to care if they do? Of course not. They're just artists, creating art. It's SOP for comic book artists to draw whatever the heck they want, and the result is a bit of cash in their pocket and a happy fan who now owns a sketch of Batman riding a unicorn or whatever. There aren't any losers in that scenario. The artist wins, the fan wins, and the people who own Batman win because now the fan likes Batman a few degrees more.

I have no problem with the people who create tasteful fan-works making some money off it (especially when a large portion of the income seems to offset the creation of stuff the artist literally just gives away to people he just met). I generally find that companies managing high-value portfolios of licensed characters don't care either, as long as nothing's damaging their sales or brand image. Chris doesn't seem to be doing either.

-JD
 
Gloomy said:
I guess I just have a totally different perspective.
-JD
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Well, maybe I should back up a little...I should put a disclaimer out there that IF the original creator doesn't care, then I don't, either.

It's like the doujinshi culture in Japan. It's not that the companies and original creators are *happy* about doujinshi...it's that they feel they can't stop it without it back-lashing on them. If you listen to them talk in interviews, they're always careful to avoid the question when asked if they like doujin or not.

Like you say, it encourages excitement for the character/show/franchise. In the case of doujin, it also serves as a breeding ground for new artists. So the companies now feel like they can't take it away from fans...

I dunno...I still think artists shouldn't be rocking on the dime of other creator's works. I know it's more accepted in certain fields than in others. I know Disney is stricter than most. Also, there are tons of fanartists out there who share their love for free over the internet, and it causes the same effect of furthering the franchise without dabbling in legal gray waters.
 
thejessta said:
Is this something I'm gonna regret Googling?
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Very, very possibly! Haha!

All it really means is fan-made comics. They look like single issue American comic books. The last convention I went to in Tokyo was the size of 3 football fields.

You can find all shows, all stories, from highly professional to very amateur. And yeah, probably half of them are adult content, ranging from nasty to very tasteful.
 
thejessta said:
What happened to the informed consumer? A consumer who knows exactly what they're purchasing?
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Let's give a big 'thank you' to Disney Pin Forum for proving a vital point:


Gee, this statement must be pretty important if DPF feels the need to have this clearly stated to protect themselves from getting in trouble with Disney... And to properly inform potential viewers of the website who may not be "informed consumers".


erudolf said:
If it were some random factory in China pushing these out, would that be ok? No. So, to just look the other way just because it is someone that people here actually know is a double standard.
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That is how we are reading some of these posts. It really seems as though some people are wanting to whitewash his illegal use of Disney's copyrighted work, and try to change the topic to something, anything else. Just because some of you know Evilos personally doesn't make the fact that he is committing a crime any less serious. In fact, if we knew Evilos personally we would try to discourage him from continuing on with the Vinylmation pins. We wouldn't want to just sit on the sidelines and watch a friend make a mistake. Friends should try to help each other out and make sure they aren't headed for trouble. At least, that is our definition of what a friend really is. Maybe those reading this who are friends with him should tell it to him straight instead of making excuses for him or handle him with kid gloves. Because you know Disney won't be so "friendly" when they bring down the hammer. :sad:

The bottom line is, Evilos is infringing upon Disney's copyrights. Just because somebody else is making pornographic Disney pins does not make Evilos' bootleg Vinylmation pins any better. You cannot justify one wrong by comparing it to a worse one!

And we couldn't disagree more with the statement that his Vinylmation pins aren't hurting Disney. If somebody has $25 to spend on Disney Vinylmation pins and buys an Evilos Vinylmation pin for $25, well there goes a $25 pin sale for Disney! So umm yeah...it does hurt Disney.
 

Actually, if the pins are being bought by Vinylmation completists who already have all the current Vinylmation releases and will continue to buy all the future ones, it's definitely not hurting Disney. It's just money those people wouldn't have spent, now being allocated to Chris' stuff, while they continue to buy official Vinylmation stuff as well. Considering the trades I've seen people making for these, I think alot of the people interested in the pin are those kinds of completist collectors.

As for "comparing one wrong to another", that's not what I'm doing. I'm just asking a question that, so far, nobody's answered - Why is there a thread complaining about this, but no thread about something that's obviously worse? I'm baffled.

Anyways, back on topic - Is anyone an expert in applicable copyright law? I've heard a couple people who looked into it themselves state that they were actually pretty sure Chris wasn't breaking any laws, but I don't know the details myself. It's not that we're "making excuses" for Chris, or that we're "handling him with kid gloves." Please don't reduce my standpoint (and the standpoints of others) to that, just because you don't agree with it. It's kind of insulting. I barely know the guy: I've met him once. But the reality is that I'm not sure any infringement is actually happening by definition anyways; I think what he does contributes to and enriches the hobby; and I think many Disney CM's and possibly Design team members are aware of what he's doing, and don't see any reason to stop him. Disney doesn't seem to have a problem with this. It's very possible that like me, they see Chris' actions as an awesome kind of free marketing that money alone can rarely buy.

-JD
 
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My sister in law is a patent and copy right attorney Yes to market and sell anything under the name such as "kermit" or "mickey" etc is indeed against the law. If it were sold and marketed under another name such as froggy instead of kermit. Those characters names and likenesses are patented and copyrighted. If I were to go out and and produce a witch that looks like maleficent I would have to make it unique and call it something else.
 
I think it's more an issue of trademark violations rather than copyright. Tron, Vinylmation, Mickey, Star Wars are trademarks in and of themselves. And since Disney is actively selling Vinylmation figures and pins Chris' merchandise would be seen as in direct competition. So even if he has asked about copyrights, he needs to also ask about trademarks.

Edit: I decided to Google "inspired by" in regards to trademark and this question popped up http://www.thelaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42607&page=1

From one of the responses, "Basically, you can't even sell something as "inspired by", because this means you are banking off of and attracting customers solely because of the marketing and branding the property owner has already done."
 
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Disney is pretty much the reason some copyright and trademark laws exist, so they're really strict about using any images, names or likenesses. just putting that out there. However I do believe they (and their legal team) can handle themselves and it's very unlikely that they even care about someone making a small amount of money (if in fact he is making any money off of them at all -- the ebay sellers listed don't appear to actually be his own account but rather someone re-selling some pins he may have acquired).

I don't quite understand the targeted nature of this thread, when there are many others doing the same thing, and possibly on a bigger scale. No one knows the motivation behind these pins, but if i had to guess, he's doing it because he likes it, and if he is making any profit off of it at all, he's likely doing it to support his craft.
 
It only hurts Disney if the designs were the same (counterfeit). Just because someone spends $25 on a tron vinylmation fantasy pin doesnt necessarily mean they would spend $25 on an official vinylmation pin with a design of something they care nothing about.
 
I understand the point some have made about he is not making that much off them still Illegal is Illegal if we turn our backs on "some" laws where do you draw the line? There is right and there is wrong. Just like counterfeit pins it is Illegal If I get a counterfeit pin I throw it away so that I am not contributing to Illegal pins. Its just wrong and it devalues the true merchandise .
 

I have refrained from leaving my opinion here because I don't want to be part of a "witch hunt" but I totally agree with the above post!
 
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