Enough with the bootleg Vinylmation pins already!!

[Rocketeerz]

Is it just me or has this whole thing with bootleg Vinylmations gotten out of hand? I'm all for cutting this HauntedCollectors/Evilos guy a break on the 1st bootleg pin of his. Because maybe he didn't know that what he did is illegally ripping off Disney. Then with the second bootleg pin he had to have known. But then I saw a post here on Pin Forum mentioning advertising a custom frame set showcasing his bootleg pins. Come on, really? But if all that wasn't enough now this guy has decided to make yet another bootleg pin that he calls a "Vinylmation Evil Kermit Pin". You can't tell me that he doesn't know that what he is doing is wrong. He even listed it as unauthorized/bootleg. Committing a crime without knowing what you are doing is wrong, is one thing. But when you know that you are committing a crime and you go ahead, there is no excuse.

And then there is the thing of the pins being Limited Edition of 100. With Disney, if they state that a pin is a certain edition size, they have to stand behind it. Disney will not release 2,000 of a Le 1000 pin. Just because this guy claims that the pins are Le 100 doesn't mean they are. From the Pinpics listing it doesn't even say that the pins are stamped with an edition size on the back. What is to stop this guy from producing more of these bootleg pins? After all he's making quite a bankroll on these.

Just look at his eBay sales: (Sidenote: thanks to Disney Pin Forum for allowing the mention of eBay auctions and sellers)
13 of his 1st bootleg pin = $484.09
6 of his 2nd bootleg pin = $189.97

And that's just the eBay sales in the feedback section. Who knows how many have been sold that buyers did not leave feedback. Not to mention how many he has sold on this website for $15 a pop. Or that he currently has a dutch auction of 9 available for $25 a pop on eBay.

So don't you dare be fooled by the "given as a gift to select family, friends and supporters" gimmick. I truly believe (as do many others) that these were made purely for publicity and most of all, a profit. I know I'm not the only one who is thinking this. I have met several pin traders at the Disney World parks that feel the same way. Maybe I'm just the only one with the guts to stand up and say something publicly?

 

[Rocketeerz]

Selling bootleg items is a criminal offense. Furthermore the purchasing of bootlegged items is also a crime. I am shocked that this website would allow such activities!!! To protect yourselves I would further investigate the legality of allowing the selling of items on your website.

This website thread and all of the information regarding these bootleg pins has been sent to Disney's anti-piracy team.

 

[showmethepins]

From my understanding (which may be flawed) a bootleg would have to portray something that Disney has a copyright for. I don't believe this is copyrighted material; it's a collector's unique creation based on Disney products. I think Evilos does fantastic work and I hope it continues. I would categorize this as a fantasy pin, and I do not believe it infringes on Disney's legal rights. Am I wrong?

 

[Rocketeerz]

From my understanding (which may be flawed) a bootleg would have to portray something that Disney has a copyright for. I don't believe this is copyrighted material; it's a collector's unique creation based on Disney products. I think Evilos does fantastic work and I hope it continues. I would categorize this as a fantasy pin, and I do not believe it infringes on Disney's legal rights. Am I wrong?

This person is illegally using the name and titles of the Disney's cartoon characters and the word Vinylmation to help sell his merchandise. Besides depicting the character likeness on the pin. To help explain the difference:

Fantasy pin

Bootleg pin

I've been into Disney pin trading since the very beginning. Bootleg and Fantasy pins are nothing new. But this is definitely a bootleg pin.

I am not disputing the fact that there is real talent when it comes to the custom Vinylmation figures. I too hope he continues with the figures, but not with the pins. I do not wish or hope anyone to break the law and steal a company's characters that they have worked so hard to protect.

 

[showmethepins]

I can understand your point of view. I personally enjoy Evilos' art and as long as it's not portraying Disney copyright material I think it's perfectly legal. If I'm wrong and his activity is illegal then I would agree that he should stop. But if it is legal, I think an artist should be able to sell his merchandise at whatever price he chooses. Each of us can decide whether we want to support the production and sale of what I call fantasy pins. If my understanding is incorrect I would like to know, so feel free to respond. Thanks.

 

[thejessta]

First off, have you discussed your concerns with Evilos privately? I'm sure he'd be glad to address any objections you may have to what he is doing. Calling him out publicly before doing so privately does not seem like the best way to create any kind of change that you see fit.

As far as his pins being unauthorized, yes, they are unauthorized by Disney. As far as being "bootleg," I feel this may be an improper term to apply to Evilos's pins. Bootlegging, as I understand, denotes unauthorized reproduction. The artwork on Evilos's pins was created by him, in the image of his custom Vinylmation figures. So, is he bootlegging by reproducing his own artwork? I cannot recall Evilos ever misrepresenting his pins as authentic Disney pins. The only thing that wasn't created by Evilos is the pin shape. This brings up another subject of customizable collectibles.

I view the Evilos pins as fantasy pins rather than bootleg pins. Disney pins are not readily customizable the way Vinylmation figures are. Disney sells blank Vinylmations for anyone to create their own. Are these custom-created figures then considered bootleg? I would think not. I feel that pins created in the Disney spirit, but not touted as authorized Disney pins, should be bought, traded, or sold like any other custom artwork. After all, who among us hasn't had an idea for a pin that they wish they could make?

And as for Evilos selling his pins, I see it as an artist trying to sell his art. What he sells his art for is his business and what people are willing to pay is their business. Some people want it, some don't. Still, the artwork is all him. Check out his Vinylmation figures to see where it comes from.

This thread will be left open to discussion. Evilos deserves to be able to publicly respond to your comments. Everyone else's comments are welcome, too. Please remember to keep things respectful, mature, and to support your statements. We looks forward to everyone's take on the situation.

 

[hopemax]

Actually, I believe it is a violation. As a member of a local NFFC chapter, who had a little bit of hearing about the process, we had to get our images approved by Disney legal to be able to use them in a newsletter. There are certain things that are allowed and other things that aren't. But basically, if it is reasonable to assume that an average person can look at an image and identify it as Disney, it is a violation. We ended up using a "gloved hand." Among Disney fans, an association to Mickey can be made. But legally an average person won't be able to identify it to any specific character because thousands of people have used a white glove in animation, comic, regular artwork. It doesn't matter if the artwork is "original" or non-commercial or commercial use. Think about it, if all someone had to do to use Mickey, was draw Mickey in a way that Disney hadn't done before, don't you think there would be a lot more non-Disney Mickey items out there?

If anyone is familiar with Deb Wills, and her allearsnet.com website. Deb started as just a regular poster on the rec.arts.disney.parks newsgroup. She built her website as a hobby, and it expanded into a business. At the same time, other people decided to start having meets in the park. To identify other RADP members, another member of the newsgroup made a button combining 3 @ symbol into the shape of a Mickey head, with RADP on it. For years, this was not a problem. I actually have a couple of them, including specially made wedding ones. Eventually, the group including Deb, started hosting a December meet. Other website owners joined up, and then Mousefest was formed. Before one of the Mousefest's they were sent cease & desist letters to say that those buttons were in no uncertain terms a violation of Disney's trademark (which I think is where the issue more revolves. It's not just about copyright, but trademarks), anyone seen wearing one of those buttons would be asked to leave and legal action would be taken against the button maker and the organizers of Mousefest. All over the arrangement of an @ symbol.

I don't know Christopher, but I've seen people say nice things about him. He may be having some fun, and responding to people's appreciation to his work. If he were making one for himself, and maybe one or two others for family. I think he would be ok. But it's obviously gone beyond 1 or 2 and money is involved. I've seen some Star Wars stuff too, and George Lucas' lawyers can be even more vigilant about bringing legal action. Maybe, he's talked to Disney legal, or legal counsel in general, and has been told that up to X number of items he may sell. But with that other person forwarding his info to Disney, he may be on Disney's radar when he might not have been before.

My advice is the same I gave to Geoff about the pin trading sheet. "Be Careful." And be prepared that if Disney finds out, they may contact you to stop.

Here are the buttons that I mentioned that caused so much trouble

 

[NBC91]

I totally agree these pins are a total violation. At 10-10-10 I asked the designer of all of the Vinylmation pins, Julie Young, about this issue. She immediately wanted to know the name of who was making these pins, she said she was going to send it to legal so they could investigate into it. Disney certainly knows about the bootleg pins.

 

[huertajv]

First off, have you discussed your concerns with Evilos privately? I'm sure he'd be glad to address any objections you may have to what he is doing. Calling him out publicly before doing so privately does not seem like the best way to create any kind of change that you see fit.

As far as his pins being unauthorized, yes, they are unauthorized by Disney. As far as being "bootleg," I feel this may be an improper term to apply to Evilos's pins. Bootlegging, as I understand, denotes unauthorized reproduction. The artwork on Evilos's pins was created by him, in the image of his custom Vinylmation figures. So, is he bootlegging by reproducing his own artwork? I cannot recall Evilos ever misrepresenting his pins as authentic Disney pins. The only thing that wasn't created by Evilos is the pin shape. This brings up another subject of customizable collectibles.

I view the Evilos pins as fantasy pins rather than bootleg pins. Disney pins are not readily customizable the way Vinylmation figures are. Disney sells blank Vinylmations for anyone to create their own. Are these custom-created figures then considered bootleg? I would think not. I feel that pins created in the Disney spirit, but not touted as authorized Disney pins, should be bought, traded, or sold like any other custom artwork. After all, who among us hasn't had an idea for a pin that they wish they could make?

And as for Evilos selling his pins, I see it as an artist trying to sell his art. What he sells his art for is his business and what people want to buy it for is their business. The artwork is all him. Check out his Vinylmation figures to see where it comes from.

This thread will be left open to discussion. Evilos deserves to be able to publicly respond to your comments. Everyone else's comments are welcome, too. Please remember to keep things respectful, mature, and to support your statements. We looks forward to everyone's take on the situation.

First and foremost, anytime there is something being done that is wrong, illegal or otherwise, it is in EVERYONE's best interest that the person, being accused of wrongdoing, be approached privately.

What we "THINK" we might know or what we "ASSUME" may be totally different than what is going on.

I totally agree with thejessta in regards to this.

I also agree that if there is something illegal going on then, the person should have the right to defend himself and make his own decision to either stop or take the consequences.

That being said, I will be watching this thread carefully as I would not want to be involved in anything illegal either.

I also agree that things MUST remain friendly and respectful of others.

 

[erudolf]

I wondered about this myself about a year ago because I was doing some paintings and wanted to know the limitations of what I could do. I never found out exactly what was allowed and what wasn't, but I do think that there is a difference between a one of a kind piece of art and replication of that art. Desinging a custom vinylmation....fine....designing your own pin of that vinylmation...fine...but when you branch into making 100 copies of that design and selling them....I think that is a problem and definitely a copyright/trademark issue.

I would be very interested if anyone could find out what the acutal laws are. But, just from my perspective and hunches, I'm surprised Disney hasn't addressed this already because I think there is definitely infringement going on.

 

[lemec]

It's funny Star Wars was brought up...I collected Star Wars when it first started to be re-released in '95, there were a few guys who made custom figures along with custom cards. The amount they sold was minimal, but I know they had a letter sent to them by Lucas. Seems to be along the same lines. It seems like the pin department at Disney must be going through a bit of a change and hence is lagging behind, but eventually someone will take exception to those pins at Disney. While you may be able to customize your own vinyl, the vinyl and it's shape are still intellectual property of Disney. Who knows, they may offer him a job as opposed to getting too worked up about it!?

 

[TheGrimGrinner]

Is it just me or has this whole thing with bootleg Vinylmations gotten out of hand? ......

First off, I'll give you hand for standing up for what you believe is right. Unfortunately, I am completely on Evilo's side (and I have no connection to the person). While we may have some very strong opinions about what happens with the pin universe, the Vinylmation universe has quite an opposite standing to the entire issue. Vinylmations are more about artists having the freedom to express themselves through this medium, and allowing them to do whatever they wish. It was Disney's decision to make the overlap between pins and figures, and this is what it has created...

I would get more into detail but my room mate is nagging at me to leave, and I think TheJessta has some pretty good points already written out.

 

[Rocketeerz]

Thank you for leaving this thread open for opinions.

I agree it is completely up to individuals to decide if they want to support bootleg merchandise. What I don't understand is why some pin collectors continually post and talk nonstop about how scrappers are ruining the pin hobby and then turn around and support bootleggers. They are both wrong and they are both ruining the pin hobby. Disney doesn't okay the scrappering of Disney pins nor do they okay the bootlegging of pins that infringe upon the Disney characters.

However as long as there is an opportunity to sell something people will create items. That is why the scrapper business is so big. Because people don't care and buy them.
　
I decided to make this post because some Vinylmation pin collectors that I have come in contact with assume Evilos is allowed to create his own Vinylmation pins purely because he has created not 1 not 2 but now 3 pins. Which is not the case. Had Disney given him the authorization to create his own Vinylmation pins he would have to have copyright Disney on the back. As well as paying Disney for initial usage of the characters/Vinylmation form and name and pay a percentage of the sales to Disney. I'm not saying that Evilos is passing his pins as authentic Disney pins, but by using the Vinylmation title and character titles he is associating his pin productions with Disney's Vinylmation pin line.

Sorry if this is harsh, but this has been going for months now and still no end in sight. The production of the latest pin confirms that. Will it end? As long as he continues to produce his line of Vinylmation pins and websites allowing the opportunity to sell them, what is to stop him from making more and more and more? I just want this information out publicly for just 4 reasons: 1) To educate others and bring this info to light. 2) For Evilos to see that it is not just me worrying about this. 3) For others to help bring what knowledge they have on copyright/trademark infringement cases so that way it proves that what I'm saying isn't just a bunch of hot air. And 4) To discourage others from making pins that infringe upon Disney. After all if 1 person can get away with it (at least for a while) others will try to do the same. Most of all, I just want him to stop making these pins.

I don't mind if he makes his own custom Vinylmation figures. He's amazingly talented and I applaud him for that. In no way am I criticizing his art. And Disney allows people to buy their solid Create-Your-Own Vinylmation figures! So if he goes to the store and pays Disney money to purchase a figure, he can do whatever he wants with it. Disney has received their money. You have to remember, Vinylmation was Disney's idea. Disney's "art". The only time Disney has encouraged people to create their own pins was when Disney offered the Color-Your-Own pins for sale at the parks. Did Evilos buy a Vinylmation pin form from Disney and just color it his own way? No.
　
Thank you "hopemax". This is exactly what I've found too. I was hoping that someone could bring a first hand experience with this infringement issue. A few years back, a close friend of mine was a member of a church that had a puppet group for children's Sunday school. The church didn't have a lot of money in the budget to purchase puppets, so they made their own. They made their puppets in the likeness and styling of Muppets. They didn't think there was anything wrong considering that were not selling them or putting on puppet shows with paid admission. But they were contacted by the Muppet Company ordering the church to stop using those puppets and make completely new ones.

To "Constance Sorrow" who posted what the Wiki explanation of a Fantasy pin (sorry, I can't seem to find your reply on here anymore maybe the moderators deleted it), I can agree 100% with that definition of Fantasy Pin. However, you seem to be overlooking a few choice words in that explanation. Similarites as in generic icons and hints of a Disney character. Like Hopemax said a white glove for Mickey. Also the explanation says "trade" not sold amongst collectors. However, these specific pins still fall under the bootleg pin. Mickey Mouse, Tron, Vinylmation title, The Muppet's Kermit.

Sorry this is so long. I wanted to make sure I had the chance to respond to as many as possible.

 

[niknaxx]

I agree it is completely up to individuals to decide if they want to support bootleg merchandise. What I don't understand is why some pin collectors continually post and talk nonstop about how scrappers are ruining the pin hobby and then turn around and support bootleggers. They are both wrong and they are both ruining the pin hobby. Disney doesn't okay the scrappering of Disney pins nor do they okay the bootlegging of pins that infringe upon the Disney characters.

The difference in MY opinion - purchasing pins with the intent to trade and end up with scrappers is quite disappointing and there SHOULD be something done about it... However, the purchase of a pin to add to MY collection without the intent to trade and recycle "non Disney" items into the Pin Trading Community is PURLY up to my own discression. These pins would go DIRECTLY into MY OWN collection and would certainly not be traded back in the community as "real" Disney pins.

I have to agree with an earlier post that these pins are Fantasy vs Bootleg.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[thejessta]

What I don't understand is why some pin collectors continually post and talk nonstop about how scrappers are ruining the pin hobby and then turn around and support bootleggers. They are both wrong and they are both ruining the pin hobby. Disney doesn't okay the scrappering of Disney pins nor do they okay the bootlegging of pins that infringe upon the Disney characters.

The way I see it, scrappers are meant to fool people into thinking they're receiving the genuine pin, thereby making them pay a premium. Bootlegs and fantasy pins are sold and bought knowingly as pins not created by Disney but are easily discernible as such (i.e. through Pin Pics or other traders/collectors.) But let's bring it back a little.

Say I knew nothing about Disney pins and unknowingly bought, with my hard-earned money, a scrapped pin. Then I come to find it's not the real deal. Knowing there is a genuine article somewhere out there, I'd get angry, demand my money back from the seller and find the real thing.

Now, let's say I knew nothing about Disney pins and unknowingly bought, with my hard-earned money, a bootleg pin. Then I come to find out that it's not actually made by Disney. Would I want the pin any less? Personally, no. I bought it because, like in the scrapped pin scenario, I obviously liked it. For me, finding out a pin wasn't approved by Disney is miles apart from finding out a pin wasn't designed by Disney at all.

I think if traders and collectors stay educated about their chosen hobby, there's no reason bootleg and fantasy pins can't be part of someone's collection. Disney isn't the be-all and end-all of pin design. If other people keep pushing the limits of design, maybe Disney will, too.

Thoughts?

To "Constance Sorrow" who posted what the Wiki explanation of a Fantasy pin (sorry, I can't seem to find your reply on here anymore maybe the moderators deleted it)

Constance deleted her own post. I can restore it if she wishes to do so.

 

[thejessta]

It was Disney's decision to make the overlap between pins and figures, and this is what it has created...

I think that's a good point. Pins and Vinylmation collecting tend to blur sometimes and if you're into customizing collectibles of ANY kind, let alone customizing Vinylmation, you would want to create something in one medium that may compliment the other.

If Disney had a way for people to cloisonné or paint their own pins, I'm sure they'd be all over that. But the closest thing pin traders and collectors have to that are unfilled gold and silver chasers In the meantime, we'll have to buy their designs.

 

[erudolf]

Now, let's say I knew nothing about Disney pins and unknowingly bought, with my hard-earned money, a bootleg pin. Then I come to find out that it's not actually made by Disney. Would I want the pin any less? Personally, no. I bought it because, like in the scrapped pin scenario, I obviously liked it. For me, finding out a pin wasn't approved by Disney is miles apart from finding out a pin wasn't designed by Disney at all.

I'm waivering on this one....I think I'd feel cheated even if I did really like the pin. I mean, I've purchased many pins for my collection before only to move them to my trades a year later. So, if I purchased a bootleg and then down the road decided I didn't want it anymore I may run into trouble unloading it.

Now, I'm fairly educated about pins and I admit that at first I was really confused by Evilos. I didn't understand who he was and at first I actually thought he was some Disney contracted artist that had done a Vinylmation like Noah does. Granted, I'm not really into Vinylmations, but it did take me quite awhile to realize that he was not affiliated with Disney. When that clicked in my brain, I was a little shocked. And if I was a Vinylmation collector, I think I would feel more strongly about this. As "educated" as I may be about pins, I am still a sucker for the quick impulse buy every now and then. If I were a Vinylmation collector and if I had been scrolling through ebay, saw this new design that I had never seen before, there is a good chance I would panic and buy it only later to find out that it wasn't Disney. Completists don't always buy a pin because they like it, they buy it regardless to stay complete.

This whole thing just doesn't feel right to me....

 

[hopemax]

The thing is, it doesn't matter how much a person likes a pin. It doesn't matter if you, personally, know it didn't come to Disney. That does not prevent Disney taking legal action against someone who is making something that an average person would identify as a trademarked Disney character. And since Disney is Disney, they don't even have to legally be in the right, because they know they can make life difficult for the little guy. Here's an example of someone who was selling "Por Favor" shirts through Zazzle and ran into Disney's C&D orders http://tacticalip.com/2009/12/15/does-disney-own-the-concept-of-a-castle/ Those shirts, really should fall into the true definition of "fantasy" merchandise, but yet Disney considered them infringement. They probably wouldn't have been able to win a legal challenge, but they know they don't need to, they've got deeper pockets.

People assume that what they are doing is small enough in scope that Disney won't care. But Disney does take trademark and copyright violations seriously, and sometimes the little guy ends up on the radar and made an example of. Our interpretations don't matter; only Disney's counts. And no one should confuse "Disney hasn't said anything yet," with "that must mean it's okay."

 

[breagirl]

Now, I'm fairly educated about pins and I admit that at first I was really confused by Evilos. I didn't understand who he was and at first I actually thought he was some Disney contracted artist that had done a Vinylmation like Noah does. Granted, I'm not really into Vinylmations, but it did take me quite awhile to realize that he was not affiliated with Disney.

Well, you took the words right out of my mouth! I had no idea he wasn't affiliated with Disney. I agree that his artwork is stunning, but I truly thought he was contracted with Disney.

P.S. Rocketeerz, did I meet you at Epcot while trading pins? I seem to remember you posting that you had heard about the board there. I just wondered if we met the weekend of the marathon?

 

[Abyssinian28]

In my mind (and I think, in most cases, the law), it's like this:

You have the right to create a piece of fanwork (fanart, fanfiction, custom jobs, whatever).

BUT, the minute you try and make money at it, your *** is up for grabs by legal. At that point, you're using a brand to make money, but not giving any back to the copyright holders.

So making a pin of your custom vinylmation to show off? Cute! It showing up on eBay? Not so very much...

Of course, people get away with stuff all the time- I mean, on top of eBay, Artist Alleys at conventions are filled with fanartists selling fanworks. I'm not quite sure why they haven't been cracked down on (not that I would want them to go away...I appreciate me some good fanart!).

 

[Constance]

I deleted it because upon further consideration, I decided not to get involved, this seemed like a headache I didn't want to be part of and still don't. So please leave me out.

Thank you Jessta, I wouldn't want people to think I was being disciplined by a mod, that's kinda a crummy thing to assume.

 

[Tabbikat2219]

OKay First off Evilos No hard feelings but here is how I see it........... If I created a character and spent my life dedicated I patented it and sold merchandise with this figure if someone where to come along and ILLEGALLY fringe on my patent or my copyrights it would be like stealing from me and that I would not appreciate. There are artist employed by disney to do this its their career and they spend their whole lives doing this. So if you create a pin and call it kermit or whatever and I did the patented kermit that makes it illegal. Think about it from the true artist point of view. I know we like to just hink about it as its "Disneys" but there are reall hardworking people behind these characters and even the pins. Its theft. Evilos is a great artist but I think if he wants to sell his art it should be all original just my thoughts

 

[caligirlUCR]

I appreciate all of views that have been presented here, I too have my own opinion.

I think there is a big difference between a "scrapper" and a fantasy pin. As people have said the scrappers mislead people to believe they are something they are not. They try to replicate the official disney pins. Especially for people who are just starting to collect/trade/buy pins or for those who don't always know what to look for scrappers are misleading. We have all had the misfortune of getting very excited for a pin that we found on a lanyard only to find that the pin is a scrapper. It seems that none of the "tests" are reliable. In fact even the one test i always use about the back stamping of a pin is smetimes misleading (especailly with the NEW boxed tron pins - where the pattern does not go to the edge of the pin) I was actually pin trading on Wednesday next to a couple who had an ENTIRE binder full of "Limited Editions" that were ALL scrappers - and I mean bad ones!! The people who traded with them were terribly mislead and so I would argue that there is a BIG difference between scrappers and fantasy pins.

Talking about the legal action - while Evilos pins "RESEMBLE" Vinylmations is you have ever seen one in person it is very easy to see that it is not one. They aredifferent is size and shape. Plus these pins started out as "gifts" that he gave to his friends and family and they turned out to be wanted by the masses. In fact the first time I saw one of his pins I wanted one. Evilos while using a similar template is not telling people he is affiliated with disney. People sometimes assume - and we all know how many problems can be caused when people assume.

At least Evilos is selling his own production. I have a much bigger problem with the people who buy limited edition pins or mystery sets and then sell the LE's or chasers for double, triple, quadruple the price! Case in point the rupunzel chaser on ebay starting bid is $100 buy it now for $239!!! That is insane and a rip off!!!

 

[hearts48]

This is a wonderful thread and I'm actually reading it in its entirety. And as a disclaimer, this is MY opinion and not that of my husband's! As someone who creates "stuff," I am aware that there are limitations that must be adhered to. I use Disney images in my craft, taken from Disney websites, internet pages, even Pinpics, to make a one-of-a-kind item for my personal use. I have been asked to make and sell them, but not knowing the legalities and the long arms of Disney, I have always declined.

I will say that I traded for an Evilos pin for my personal collection. I collect Mickey and Tron is an interest of mine. Because of its non-Disney status, I valued it less, and would not trade a low edition Disney pin for it. For example: LE100 for an LE100. I would categorize Evilos pins as fantasy, because they are "his creations" and not a stolen image from Disney and distributed illegally (my definition of bootleg). And as a fantasy pin, he can sell, trade or do whatever he wants with them. I do question the use of the word "Vinylmation" in his description, but truthfully have not looked into its copyright or trademark status, which I'm sure there is something. The shape of his vinylmation pins is too similar to the current vinylmation pins, size and design, and to those who are not aware, it could easily be mistaken at a glance as a "Disney" pin. It is very misleading.

I guess there is actually a few separate issues here, not just the sale and profit of a bootleg pin, or whether it is call a fantasy pin, but copyright infringement of the use of the name and shape.

I agree wholeheartedly that this discussion should have been approached privately first, although we do not know if that took place, before it was made into a public forum. I also agree that Evilos should not be singled out as there are others who produce their own pins with "similarities" to Disney designs and characters.

I support artists, crafters, and creators because I am one of them. But we, ourselves, should monitor our actions to make sure we are not stepping on anyone's toes or violating any laws. The big guys or us little guys, do get hurt in the end.

 

[TheGrimGrinner]

Just another thing I'm throwing out there..... There are LOADS of fantasy pins out there. All sorts of pins that have been created over the years by fans of disney and it's pin traders. While many people differentiate between "fantasy" and "unauthorized" (note: NOT bootleg... bootleg is of an already existing Disney pin.), I really don't see a difference, and there is no notable difference even on pin pics. Most people say that "fantasy" pins can't actually have the Disney character on it. Let's take a look on pin pics....

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=2091&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=8510&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=10973&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=11792&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=14279&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=15296&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=15800&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=17467&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=21203&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=21534&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=21535&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=22962&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=23626&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

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http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=24347&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

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http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=26667&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=26668&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=26988&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

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http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=29222&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=34592&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=34593&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=37967&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=76856&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

http://pinpics.com/cgi-bin/pin.cgi?pin=77608&sid=4028.1296199885.v2

HOLY COW!! There's tons!! And it's been going on for a LONG time!! Now, I was very specific in my search, because I knew the people in this thread would be. The pin had to obviously show the front of the character, and have the word "Fantasy" in the red title. If I was to go even further and include the pins that said "Fantasy pin" in the description, there would be HUNDREDS more!

And beyond that even, where is the line drawn between what is "allowed" and what "isn't allowed." Half of the "Fantasy pins" in there that show the silhouette or the back of the character, I could bring into any elementary school in America, and the kids there would be able to tell me who the character is. And why are certain items, like a white glove, a sorcerers hat, wand, castle, and Disney "D" considered to be "allowed." Aren't many of these items just as specific to Disney as the characters? Not to mention, who knows how many fantasy pins that aren't listed on PP and are for sale all over ebay, trade shows, and conventions. If people want to make fan art, I say good for them! If the medium happens to be a pin, that's great too.

Speaking of which, I think someone brought this up already in the thread, there is fan art all OVER in every medium imaginable. All over Orange County I walk into restaurants, hotels, and shops and see paintings of Disney characters that aren't from Disney specifically. And you think that a poor starving artist is just giving up their work for free? HA! There are all sorts of ways for people to create works of art, and I will darn well appreciate what they are able to do. Heaven knows I have no artistic talent at all, so it's nice to see what others can do.

Personally, I've been collecting pins for over 20 years. FAR before Disney pins came along, and I (surprisingly) didn't get into Disney pins right away. More of my cherished pins are run of the mill pins that have just been created by other people... why? Because they felt like it... So coming into a group of collectors that are so particular about their pins is very strange to me.

I came across something on a non-Disney pin trading site the other day (What!? There's non-Disney pin collectors!?) that I think might be very relevant here....

The most important aspect about pin trading, whether online or face-to-face, is to have fun and enjoy the hobby, and to meet other pin collectors in the process. Whether you are trading at a Hard Rock Cafe, a pin show, a sporting event, or in front of your computer, the thrill of the trade is what keeps us going, and for many of us, that's where the fun begins.

When did we start losing the fun out of pin trading? If you're really this upset about a tiny piece of metal, just take a step back, take a deep breath, and tell yourself that it's not that big a deal. If you don't want a pin, don't get that pin, and just remember ALWAYS, to have fun with pin trading.

-Grim

PS: While doing that search, there are some REALLY awesome "fantasy" pins out there... wish I could actually add them to my wants list.