Need Opinions on Messed up Peter Pan PoDM (Image Heavy)

About 4 weeks or so after Peter Pan PoDMs were released, I bought the following pin from yourwdwstore.com.

I paid $89.95 before taxes and shipping (yeah, silly me!).

The pin came. I looked at it and it looked fine. So, I wrapped it and placed it in my treasured PoDM box like I do with all my PoDM pins to keep them safe.

Recently, I was looking through them to decide what to keep and what to trade/auction or sell.

I found a spot on the cel. I have no idea how it came there. It does not look like a bubble, but more like the protective layer got stuck to the cel underneath.

No matter what it is and how it came there, this cel is now "defective" I think.

I tried to take some pictures, some of the lines in these pictures are just from the camera. But I am sure you will be able to see what I am talking about. It is the spot above Peter's hand.



It actually looks like there is a full moon, but it is not. And there is a pin-head sized clear spot in the middle of that circle.





And one more:


If it were not such a nice scene, I would give it to someone who wanted to place one of them light thingies behind it. But, it is a good scene to waste.

I don't know what to do :dunno: I know that I do not want to keep it because I already selected my keeper scenes (here http://disneypinforum.com/showthread.php?26226-First-Year-PODMs-images-)

Should I trade it as damaged ?? And would anyone even be interested in it?

Should I sell it maybe for a lesser charge ? Say $55 or so?

Should I auction it?

Any input/help/suggestion is appreciated. Thanks for looking

Wow kudos to u for getting it for only $89!! So many Peter Pan PoDMs with him in it are soooo frickin expensive!

Ok now onto the subject at hand. If it were me, I'd say it'd be okay to keep or trade; and just puts in the disclaimer that there is a minor flaw on the cell. At least it's not on the actual character! I know some traders are very particular about flaws on the cell (ie air bubbles) but this is a very nice scene! And how many scenes do u see of Peter really?

I personally would love this for my collection. I've been trying to get a Peter Pan PoDM for some time now and I am actually interested in this one, regardless of that spot on the cell. I would like to attempt to trade u for it if u'd like please take a look at my traders and see if there is anything (multiples pin to trade are ok for me too) ur interested in for it. If not I will try my best to come up with some money to purchase it.

Hope my 2 cents was helpful to u, along w/ my plug to trade/possibly buy it lol

And holy smokes u have some of the best 1 year PoDM scenes I've seen! ::applause:: exquisite!!

Well, I would disclose the "defect" just like you have if you ever go to sell/trade it. I am interested for sure! We don't have any matches to trades, but if you want to look at what I have, or $55 sounds like a fair price...let me know...PM me, as I am having surgery early tomorrow and I will be out of comission for a few days at least!

Disclose as defect/damaged. I know I have a Rapunzel/Flynn in the boat that has a similar defect (looks like a full moon) so I think this is just something that happens to the cells

I'd have to see it in person to be certain, but I believe what you are seeing is called a 'cigarette burn' or 'Cue Mark'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cue_mark
These are little circles that appear on screen (in a theater) about every 20 minutes. They tell the projectionist when it's time to get ready to switch reels (movies in theaters come on 20-minute reels, and older theaters would need to switch from one projector to another every 20 minutes. Modern theaters attach them into one huge reel, but the marks are still on the film).

On modern films, these are usually nice, clean black circles. But on vintage films, they literally were made by burning a circle into the film.

If that is indeed what this is, It's not really a defect, just a normal mark on the film (although you'd think they would pick frames that didn't have these).
One nice thing about it though, is that it proves they used real theatrical prints to make these pins vs using the trailers or making special prints just for the pins (these likely would not have these marks...)

I personally would still love to trade or purchase it. I actually would probably pay a little more, maybe around $65. Most people only display them behind light anyways, so a small defect such as that doesn't bother me much! I don't know about other collectors though.

To me, that scene really captures the essence of Peter's character. Damaged or not, I would LOVE to have it in my collection! I too have been looking for a Peter Pan PODM for a while, and a scene like this is not to be passed up! I hope you get a great trade offer for it, or a great price! Best of luck!!

I'm so sorry you recently found it damaged! Did it come like that or did you recently discover the error because storage caused it? At least you have the best scene ever, the one at the window

I agree with the other DPF members that people would still appreciate the pin because Peter is harder to find. I'm sure you could get a nice trade (maybe another PODM to replace the ones you don't like in your keepers) since you've said before that you had to succumb to ebay/ living in Texas (I'm in the same situation, except I'm not in Texas lol).

You could join the "PODM White Elephant" Game too if you wanted to get rid of it but get another nice PODM instead!
I think that auctioning it off would be easier or zapping someone like you initially said

I would honestly buy it! Despite the defect, it's still a really good scene!

Sending you a PM..

Thank you everyone for all their input. I am happy to realize that this is not considered such a horrible defect.

I stepped out for a few hrs and I came home just a little while ago to find some PMs and offers. I will have to scratch my head with fresh mind tomorrow morning.

Thank you so much for all your helpful inputs and willingness to forgive this blemish on my cel once again.

If any previous offers are not accepted, please look thru my traders. Peter Pan is one of the three Mom/sis need to complete their collection! Thanks and good luck!

Omg Selen gimme!!!!!!!!

I find that this happens to podms over time one of my extra BATB pins did this at the bottom and worst of all spread so no its on my lanyard

I would agree with everyone else. Just disclose the flaw. From the picture is looks like a speck of dirt the got between the cell and the protective coating over it. Over time the lack of adhesion in that area probably allowed a little separation of the two layers creating a little air bubble around the speck. Purely conjecture on my part, but that's what it looks like to me.

Heh, I'm telling you, it's a 'Cue Mark'! It's put there deliberately at the time the film is made to indicate reel changes. Anyone here seen Fight Club?

It's too close to the right size and in the exact place it should be to be a defect, it's supposed to be there... (They probably should have chosen to not use those frames though...)

Thank you Phoenix and others who responded via PM and here.

Phoenix said:

From the picture is looks like a speck of dirt the got between the cell and the protective coating over it. Over time the lack of adhesion in that area probably allowed a little separation of the two layers creating a little air bubble around the speck. Purely conjecture on my part, but that's what it looks like to me.

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It is difficult to see it clearly from the pictures, especially since they are taken with my antique camera. But, in person it looks quite the opposite: It looks like the protective coating and the cel fused together.

I think it was like that when I got it in the mail from the seller (yourwdwstore) because I always thought that "the moon looks so nice" I never realized until recently that it was a defect. Oh well ....

Or maybe it is a cue mark indeed.

Interesting... But shouldn't the protective layer be already fused to cel?

Hi Selen!

Like everyone else said, I think a lot of people would be interested in it regardless of the little flaw it has, Peter cels are very HTF! Personally I don't think it detracts from it's beauty at all, I have a cel like this too, but the mark is on the back of the cel and you can't see it unless you look from the back... to me this doesn't look like a cue mark, but whatever it is, your cel is still pretty awesome- good luck selling/trading it!

jkhogon said:

Interesting... But shouldn't the protective layer be already fused to cel?

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Not sure about this. I think they are placed flush together but not really fused with heat or adhesive. If they were fused, we would not see air bubbles as defect in some other cels. My "spot" does not look like an air bubble at all.

But I really am no expert on these :dunno:

I am also somewhat baffled by the tiny pin-prick like clear spot in the middle. It is somewhat visible in the second picture.

PrincessxJasmine89 said:

to me this doesn't look like a cue mark, but whatever it is, your cel is still pretty awesome- good luck selling/trading it!

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It looks like the cue marks on movies I've projected that were made in the '60s and '70s... Right place, shape, appearance... Honestly can't think of anything it could be, especially if it's a perfect (or nearly perfect) circle.

Merryweather said:

I am also somewhat baffled by the tiny pin-prick like clear spot in the middle. It is somewhat visible in the second picture.

Click to expand...

On some older films, the cue mark is made by essentially burning or scratching a circle into the upper right corner of the film frame (several frames, actually). This was physically done to each print individually before being sent to a theater. The item used to make the mark probably had a tiny point in the center causing the center of the circle to have more emulsion removed than the rest (the emulsion layers are the ones that actually provide the color in the film. Remove these layers completely and you are left with clear plastic).

rik1138 said:

It looks like the cue marks on movies I've projected that were made in the '60s and '70s... Right place, shape, appearance... Honestly can't think of anything it could be, especially if it's a perfect (or nearly perfect) circle.



On some older films, the cue mark is made by essentially burning or scratching a circle into the upper right corner of the film frame (several frames, actually). This was physically done to each print individually before being sent to a theater. The item used to make the mark probably had a tiny point in the center causing the center of the circle to have more emulsion removed than the rest (the emulsion layers are the ones that actually provide the color in the film. Remove these layers completely and you are left with clear plastic).

Click to expand...

Thank you for all this valuable information. I really really hope that it is a cue mark like you said. That would make this cel probably a bit rare.

Now, I am even more confused about what to do :dunno:

Where is this scene at during the movie? I calculated roughly at 24 mins.

The reels used to be (as per Wikipedia) 14 or 20 mins long. If that is true, and if this scene is indeed around 24 min mark, would there be a cue mark ??

Reels can be any duration under 22 minutes... Just depends on how much film they want to put on it I guess (it's never really made sense sometimes... I've received movies on 6 reels that would easily fit on 5...). They are usually in the 15-20 minute range, but I've seen them as short as 7 minutes, and I've seen them push beyond the 20 minute mark to about 22...

You can also watch the scene... Reel changes are always on scene cuts, so if this is a cue mark, it will be within 2 seconds of a scene change. I haven't seen Pan in years, so I don't remember it much... But if you can find this exact frame in the movie, in 2 seconds (or less) it should change to some other scene (or a different angle of the same scene, but some kind of hard cut). If there's 5 or 10 seconds left of this exact shot, then it could be something else...

I'll ask around the 35mm movie collecting community... I'm sure someone has a print of this movie, maybe they can confirm the scenes at the reel changes for us.