ITS ON! Lets discuss the point system

[Psycho Pixie]

The super awesome psychotically spectacular gift auction is up and running!

I know people have questions about the point system and how we got it working; fairness, multipliers and bonus structure.

I will have my husband, Tom ((phoenix)) weigh in here at some point via reply, but he is at a meeting this morning and cannot help right now.

Here is the link to the point system. LINKIEVONLINKSALOT

• If you click on the link it opens an image of the point system(PS) we are using for this auction.
• If you want to use the PS simply click on file, and go down to "download" It is a safe download.
• Once open, you will notice it is an Excel spreadsheet.

Enter the pin number, then edition size, then trade, then want. If it is an Open edition, Limited release or Hidden Mickey, there are multiplier codes on there for you to input on the "edition" box. The PS is set up to do the math and calculate total point value. That's where Tom comes in, he knows the formula used to get the point totals. It has to do with the multiplier table, and with trade/wants ratio's. Bonus points are then added if applicable.

If you have multiple pins in your bid, you add up all the points to get your total bid value.

The pin being auctioned is 43 points. We get the points from: LE 400, with t/w of 36/216 with a bonus of 10 for jumbo size. total 43.

No-one bidding needs to add their own points up. I have to check it on my PS anyway before posting. But it is handy to use if your deciding what pins to bid.

MY WANTS ARE NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL IN THAT AUCTION.
Please pardon me putting in in all caps, I wanted to emphasize this very important fact. It is a point value auction. Not a preferential auction.

Further questions will be addressed via reply here. If I add info as we go to this OP, i will put it in GREEN

Hope that helps!!!

 

[Psycho Pixie]

So I am temporarily hijacking my wife's computer for the explanation on the points system for this auction.

The formula is as follows: from pinpics - (#Wanting / # Trading) x Edition size multiplier + bonus points (if applicable) = total points value
Example - the pin being auctioned (pinpics 81719) is a jumbo LE400, 36 trading and 216 wanting: so (216 / 36) x 5.5 + 10 bonus points or 6 x 5.5 = 33 + 10 bonus points for being a jumbo. Total points for this pin is 43.
Pin Points Multiplier Table:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Edition Size[/TD]
[TD]Multiplier[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Edition Size[/TD]
[TD]Multiplier[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hidden Mickey[/TD]
[TD]1.25[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]501 - 750[/TD]
[TD]4.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Open Edition[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]401 - 500[/TD]
[TD]5.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Limited Release[/TD]
[TD]1.75[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]301 - 400[/TD]
[TD]5.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Over 3000[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]251 - 300[/TD]
[TD]6.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2501 - 3000[/TD]
[TD]2.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]201 - 250[/TD]
[TD]6.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2001 - 2500[/TD]
[TD]2.75[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]151 - 200[/TD]
[TD]7.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1501 - 2000[/TD]
[TD]3.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]101 - 150[/TD]
[TD]7.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1001 - 1500[/TD]
[TD]3.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]51 - 100[/TD]
[TD]8.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]751 - 1000[/TD]
[TD]4.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1 - 50[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[chipdale123]

I think I'd like to participate!

This might be a dumb question and maybe I just missed something, but how do you know if a pin gets any bonus points? Thanks!

 

[Psycho Pixie]

from the auction::

Just so that I understand... this pin:

Pin 53479: DLR - Camp Pin-e-ha-ha - Take Time to Enjoy the Little Things - Bambi (Spinner/Dangles)

LE 500, 12 trading 41 wanting = (41/12)x5.0 = 17.08 points

will get fewer points than this pin:

Pin 90991: Disney Fairies - Booster Pack - Periwinkle Only

Open Edition, 1 trading 20 wanting (20/1)x1.5= 30 points

Am I understanding this correctly? I think this auction idea is ridiculously awesome, but I worry that we may need some shark repellant.

Yes it will, you are correct. and the reason is due to the fact that only 1 is trading. while the other pin is an le500 which gives it a multiplier, at 12 to 41 the trade ratio is 3.5 to 1, while the other is 20 to 1. The LE you use as a question is fairly easy to obtain with the t/w ratio where it is at. The open edition you use as an example is not typical of most open edition pins either.

The auction won't need shark repellent. The pin being auctioned is being given away to someone else. not the person bidding. And plenty of people will want to bid on this pin as a gift for a dear friend.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

I think I'd like to participate!

This might be a dumb question and maybe I just missed something, but how do you know if a pin gets any bonus points? Thanks!

Bonus points are specifically for pins classified as Jumbo's, super Jumbo's or for PODM frame/scene.

 

[chipdale123]

Got it! Thanks a lot! Just placed my bid and I really want to win! AAAAAH Thanks for putting this auction together!

 

[chipdale123]

But wait, trade/want ratios are always changing :eek2: Or did I miss something else. . . lol.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Trade wants ratio at the time of bid.

 

[chipdale123]

oh okay

 

[docfish2u]

Okay so what about pins that pinpics say are LE but edition size unknown. Say 2821 for example

 

[Psycho Pixie]

pins with unknown edition size will be classified as le3000+

 

[Vixy]

Would you consider a pin that was Cast Member exclusive to be Limited Release? I mean it wasn't sold in the stores so only Cast Members could get it...

Edit: I mean, if it didn't already have an LE number, that is.

Edit: Oh also: what if we have a pin set? Say if I have the entire Princess shoes booster set... it would probably come out to more points if I calculate each shoe individually than I do the entire set... but would that be fair? Or would that be kinda cheating?

 

[Phoenix]

Would you consider a pin that was Cast Member exclusive to be Limited Release? I mean it wasn't sold in the stores so only Cast Members could get it...

Edit: I mean, if it didn't already have an LE number, that is.

Edit: Oh also: what if we have a pin set? Say if I have the entire Princess shoes booster set... it would probably come out to more points if I calculate each shoe individually than I do the entire set... but would that be fair? Or would that be kinda cheating?

Here is the skinny on the points system the way I see it. I designed it some time ago and have been running various tests on it since. This is the first time that it is actively being used in an auction by Psycho Pixie who is my wife.

I did not give extra consideration to cast pins and for the following reasons:

1. I did not see a way to segregate the pins by where and how they are made available. DLRP pins are easier for people in Europe to get but harder for anyone in the US. The same goes for all other park releases (i.e. DLR, WDW, UK, Japan, etc.). For that reason I put no extra weight on where they were released or who to.

2. Not being a cast member myself I do not know if the pins released there are Limited release or cast rack pins. The standard park limited release pins say so either on pinpics or it is stamped on the pin. So for that I would consider a cast exclusive as a rack pin unless it stated otherwise.

3. There are also WDI pins and now as an additional example the Brave Pixar employee store exclusives. Though I am not sure of the way people were able to purchase the Pixar pins, there have been, in the past, D23 days, Golden Tickets and some shows that WDI shows up at to make employee exclusive pins available to the public. Also, so many employees have friends that are collectors that they get out to the public relatively easily. I hear all the time of employees that bring their friends into cast member stores to buy pins. Living close to DLR and having an annual pass i have found this a common occurrence.

As far as the pin sets go I would go by whatever has the highest points value. There is honestly no way to know whether you have the set or have managed to trade individually for them. Also talking to Psycho Pixie about it she would just break up the set to give individual pins for zaps, rack attacks and whatever other giveaways come about. I ran the numbers and the set is like 6.52 and individually they add up to 28.60.

I hope that helps explain how I weighted the points system and answers your questions. If any one else has any questions I would love to hear them. I tried to make this as fair and impartial as possible, without putting any influence on any particular pin.

 

[Vixy]

That answers my questions perfectly. Thanks so much!

 

[Psycho Pixie]

just to re-address a few questions that have popped up both in the auction and in chat room recently during this auction.

• A pin with 0 trading is counted as 1 trading, if you are willing to bid it, you are willing to trade it.
• your bid pin(s) should not be on your want list. No padding numbers please.
• The point value is determined at TIME bid is placed. So someone adding the pin you just bid to their trade list will not effect your point value.
• Future pins cannot be bid. the point value is off kilter because no-one should be listing it for trade at all until it releases, and the wants values will change as people buy it.
• Yes, occasionally an Open edition pin is going to be higher value than a limited edition. the edition size is just a multiplier. an open edition pin with only 1 trading and 20 wanting is going to be a higher point value than an LE with 16 trading and 40 wanting.
• The point system is not perfect. this is literally the first time we have really tried it full on, no holds barred. It obviously needs some more tweaks and fiddling, but it is what it is right now. Try not to mess with it to much. :wiggle:

Remember it is a gift auction. we are all bidding and playing to give these pins away to someone.

 

[Sheppyman21402]

Okay I am interested and read all the rules but I still don't understand... How am I supposed to "bid"? Is it with pins I already have and am I trading the pin(s) for the auction one? Do I pick a random pin? What pin am I bidding on? Where do I send the pin point chart?

 

[Psycho Pixie]

this is for the auction i am running on the dpf auction house. You bid pins, just like a normal pin auction. but each pin you bid has a point value. You use the point system to determine your point value(s)

The pins you bid are pins you already own and are willing to trade.
You are bidding on the Jumbo Ariel pin that is in the Auction post.
However, this auction is different from typical ones because you are not bidding to win the pin and keep it. You are bidding to win and send it to someone else as a gift.

Please read all the rules on the auction before bidding.
here is the auction:
Trade Auction: The Super Awesome Psychoticalyl Spectacular Gift Auction!!!!!!

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Question from the auction:

Just curious... If Echo were to bid the same pin, would it be worth half the value as she would have to add her name to the traders list to bid it???

In this specific case I think we would keep the point at the same value as the other person who bid. I think this is an exceptional point as well...

There are 2 options to take with this situation.

1~ we could make a rule that no-one can bid the same pins as another person bids. Which lets face it, we all hate it when someone bids the same thing we do, but adds to it and steals our thunder.....

ORRRRRRR

2~ once a pin is bid, the point value for that pin is set for the entire auction, regardless of weather or not another person bids it.

What does everyone think of these options and which would you chose? Because IF we can iron out the kinks of this point system, we might use it again in the future. And if that means rules to cover certain concerns, fairness and prevent loopholes, we can do that too.

 

[docfish2u]

option 2 works for me. I do hate it when somebody takes my bid and adds a pin to it, but most of the time when that happens it is just somebody not paying attention to what others bid. If they read the other bids at all.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

yeah, thats also something I have noticed about any auction, often people do not read all the bids before they bid. I do, because I want to make sure my bid is going to be "worth it" or good enough to beat those bids.

Why do people not read all the bids, or at least the bids of those on the leaderboard before bidding on auctions? For any auction, weather it is point system or auctioneer preference it is in the best interest of a bidder to review what they are up against.

one vote for "points lock" on any pin that is bid. Which with the excel spread sheet is a very easy idea to implement.

 

[HandA]

I vote for option 2 as well.

Don't know if it has been brought up (it may be better if it wasn't, but I'm going to for the hell of it) ... how does it work with Artist Proof pins? I know I have one where if I bid the regular pin, it would have 5 times as many points than if I plugged in the AP version. This because the LE size would be "yes, but unknown" relegating it to the LE3000+ multiplier. I know some don't put added value on an AP, which is fine, but does it actually devalue it?

Would you use a combination of the two listings for total wants to trades or stick to the AP listing only?

For example ... AP Pin 92455 vs Non AP Pin 87272

 

[Psycho Pixie]

I think that based on the fact that many people do not care if a pin has an AP stamp on it, I would have to say the point value SHOULD be the regular pin, not the AP. Perhaps a bonus for AP/PP or artist signed items would be in order for future point system use. Like we do for the sizes? maybe 10 points for ap/pp or artist signed would work?

It is a very good question, it had not come up yet, thank you!

 

[HandA]

Woohoo .. I contributed!!!

That was definitely my point in where I can understand not automatically assigning huge extra value to it, but it really didn't seem right to devalue it either. Using the original's pinticulars (as you like to say) with a small bumpage seems fair.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

PODM points values.

Jabberwocky made a thread about podm statistics, and I plugged those current numbers into my calculator.

points below are without the bonus for quality of frame/cell.
bonus structure is:

• Minor: 25
• Standard: 50
• Major: 75

[TABLE="width: 609"]
[TR]
[TD]snow[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]314[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]40.957[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bambi[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]257[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]24.871[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cindy[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]279[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]23.250[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alice[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]65[/TD]
[TD]287[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]13.246[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jungle[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]63[/TD]
[TD]174[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]8.286[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Petrpn[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]243[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]14.294[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dumbo[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]243[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]14.878[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pinoch[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]166[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.640[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]101dal[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]81[/TD]
[TD]213[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7.889[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tasia[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]70[/TD]
[TD]233[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]9.986[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lady[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]217[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]9.716[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SitS[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]63[/TD]
[TD]155[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7.381[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Toystr[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]181[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.962[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nemo[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]76[/TD]
[TD]162[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Aladdin[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]84[/TD]
[TD]193[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.893[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Monstrs[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]87[/TD]
[TD]162[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5.586[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tangle[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]123[/TD]
[TD]327[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7.976[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TLK[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]100[/TD]
[TD]210[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.300[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lmerm[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]125[/TD]
[TD]230[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5.520[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SBW[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]86[/TD]
[TD]125[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.360[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mulan[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]107[/TD]
[TD]154[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.318[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ghosts[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]85[/TD]
[TD]98[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3.459[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]BatB[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]236[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]8.962[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCT[/TD]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It is interesting to look at the point values in comparison to those of pins like RC Rapunzel and such. Obviously, PODM are in a class by themselves and need some other form of point valueing to be a fair judge of their current supreme status in the pin trade community.

Anyone have ANY idea how we could change this?????

 

[Phoenix]

Warning this is a bit long:

I would love to hear thoughts from people on this system. I designed it based off another system the was run quite some time ago in an auction. That system proved however that there were pins that could be bid that yielded high points values that did not justify the pins being bid. I retooled the system and Psycho Pixie's auction is the first to run using it.

One of the previous comments mentioned AP / PP and artist signed pins. I will definitely take this into consideration going forward. I think that having some additional point bonus for this type of pin would be warranted. Maybe 5 point for an artist signed pin and 10 points for an AP / PP pin. Something to that extent.

I know Psycho has talked with people in chat about the points system, and one common point that was mentioned is that the system does not bring market value (i.e. ebay prices), into consideration. I would love to hear from anyone about this as it was something that I considered, but found too many cons to to have price be a contributing factor. Some of the reasons for that are as follows:

1. There are many pins that are listed on pin pics that are either rarely or never listed on ebay. This makes it difficult if not impossible to establish a value.
2. In my previous conversations with other traders I have come to determine that a pins value is open to debate. A pin that I may think is worth 20-30 dollars others would consider it 5-10 and others yet would say 50-60 dollars. To me the price of a pin brings in an emotional aspect that I was trying to keep out with the pin point system.
3. Market value is more subject to change than the wants to trades ratio in pin pics. It is difficult sometimes to come up with enough completed listings on ebay to establish a market and that market is subject to many things including how many people notice the pin is available, to whether or not it is even listed correctly allowing the pin its best amount of views. As an example the DA Stitch Morning Coffe pin (30723) is trade/wants 33/296 on pinpics (without backup I am guessing that this number has not changed substantially over the last three months). However the last three completed listings on ebay where the pin has sold from early September through early November has seen the "value" of the pin drop by almost half from $64.00 to $56.00 to $36.55.

(I would only count completed listings because if it has not sold the value is not established. Just because a hidden mickey is listed at $100.00 does not mean anyone will buy it for that.):dunno:

I designed the system to try and level the playing field for pins providing a relatively consistent way to put pins up against one another without bringing any sort of emotional factor into the system. I collect certain pins and place a higher emotional value on the pins that I collect naturally because I like it. However there are even more pins that I don't collect that I could care less about.

The formula that I used for the system, for those that may not know, is # wanting divided by #trading which yields a ratio of 1 to whatever for the pin. Each pin then has a multiplier added based on the edition size. The lower the edition size the higher the multiplier (see table in post #2 on this thread). This yields a number that you can use to compare one pin against another. Pins can be anywhere from less than one point for a pin that has more trading than wanting to several hundred points for a low edition size that has few trading and many wanting.

I hope this helps people understand where the system came from and would love to hear any questions, comments, or concerns regarding how you think the system works and ideas about what might be changed to improve it any more.