Enough with the bootleg Vinylmation pins already!!

Here is what I think (and I'm emphasize the "I"). Disney doesn't give a hoot about scrappers. As long as they are making money on pins, they will not do a thing. I have sent many letters and even included emails from China and don't even get a response. Disney doesn't care. It promotes pins and that means money for them. Unless someone at Disney gets the "message", then nothing will be done. It's been going on way too long for them not to know about it. As far as what is "legal", everyone at some point has borrowed something that has a copyright. We use avatars, signatures, and even Rocketeer uses an image of Donald Duck. If evertime someone used the image we would all be in jail. Leave the legal to the lawyers and pin trading to pin traders. If we educate ourselves and those around us, we could put a dent in scrappers. Thanks for letting me sound off.

swim2sea said:

Here is what I think (and I'm emphasize the "I"). Disney doesn't give a hoot about scrappers. As long as they are making money on pins, they will not do a thing. I have sent many letters and even included emails from China and don't even get a response. Disney doesn't care. It promotes pins and that means money for them. Unless someone at Disney gets the "message", then nothing will be done. It's been going on way too long for them not to know about it. As far as what is "legal", everyone at some point has borrowed something that has a copyright. We use avatars, signatures, and even Rocketeer uses an image of Donald Duck. If evertime someone used the image we would all be in jail. Leave the legal to the lawyers and pin trading to pin traders. If we educate ourselves and those around us, we could put a dent in scrappers. Thanks for letting me sound off.

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+1.

Cicada said:

I don't quite understand the targeted nature of this thread, when there are many others doing the same thing, and possibly on a bigger scale.

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Name five. ....Actually, name one.

Let's think about, say, just the past one whole year. Unless there is some underground Disney pin bootleggers club that we are unaware of, we personally cannot name another single individual who has been creating bootleg pins. (That is, not yet. But if Evilos tries anyways to get away with this and the community becomes an accessory in his illegal behavior, that sets an example that others could surely follow.) Virtually, unless we somehow stumbled across something on Ebay, we would only know of existing bootleg/fantasy pins when they're added to Pinpics. Do a search! Seriously, in the past ONE whole year besides Evilos there are only bootleg (or even "Fantasy" if some still want to try to make an argument on that) pins from the mysterious companies in China and there's 2 bootleg Jessica Rabbit pins (actually created in what year, we don't know) that have been added to the database.


So, because Evilos has tried to promote himself so much, he has obviously set himself up as an easy target when infringement is found. That, and the fact that he is currently the only individual publicly known for making infringing pins, could possibly be why the original creator of this thread pointed him out point-blankly. We're not saying that there are absolutely NO individuals out there making bootlegs...but if there are, they have certainly found a good way of keeping their name and their pins out of sight from the pin community to criticize...

Cicada said:

However I do believe they (and their legal team) can handle themselves and it's very unlikely that they even care about someone making a small amount of money...

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Even if one wanted to agree with that argument, it still does not make the situation right. Small or big scale, big company or little guy individual, infringment is infringment. Wrong is wrong, no excuses. No one should be above the law - not even the most talented artist in the history of the world!

Cicada said:

It only hurts Disney if the designs were the same (counterfeit). Just because someone spends $25 on a tron vinylmation fantasy pin doesnt necessarily mean they would spend $25 on an official vinylmation pin with a design of something they care nothing about.

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Sorry, not true. Disney owns Vinylmation name, their Disney characters, etc. They started it, they have the right to make Vinylmation pins and title them so. When an outsider comes in and makes the same line of merchandise - even with a different design theme (say, Tron) - Disney now no longer has the monopoly on their OWN merchandise! There is now another choice that a consumer can make - buy a Disney Vinylmation pin or buy a Evilos Vinylmation pin. But think about it carefully - take out Evilos in this next scenario: A consumer who wanted to buy a Vinylmation pin would NOT even have an option to buy a Tron Vinylmation pin unless DISNEY creates it. So if someone really wanted to buy a Vinylmation pin they would be forced to either buy whatever Vinylmation pin design Disney currently has to offer - or - hold off on buying one until Disney eventually creates a design that is to their liking.

Another reason why that statement is not true is because of the future. Disney's best interest is to always protect their entities - that's what they have to sell! So of course they have to be strict! Down the road if Disney wants to create a Tron Vinylmation pin (which they absolutely have every right to do because they can legally use it) they would now have to compete with Evilos. Isn't that crazy? Having to compete someone for what you had the sole right to create in the first place??? One's next argument might be "well it still wouldn't matter because Disney would probably not make the Tron design EXACTLY like Evilos, so they'd still be different looking pins"....well, that's not true either! Having another Tron Vinylmation pin out there means that Disney does not have the ONLY Tron design in existence! Again, they have lost their monopoly even on just that design. A consumer could come along and decide that they only wanted just 1 version of a Tron Vinylmation pin - Disney no longer has that guarantee that the consumer is going to pick theirs.

And then you get the people that'll accuse Disney of stealing ideas from those that made bootlegged Disney merchandise in the first place. (We're not talking originally non-Disney merchandise like Munies or whatever. We're talking "Disney" bootlegged merchandise.) Of course as a business, Disney wants to avoid all that mudslinging. That's why Disney has to protect itself, its merchandise lines, its characters, etcetera and prevent anyone from using what is rightfully theirs. If Disney was the only one creating "Disney" merchandise, there would be no "Disney is ripping off my work" problems. Case in point: Does anyone else who was big into Disney pin trading in 2003 remember this pin fiasco?

The Bootleg (released into the pin community May 2003):
Pin 22182

The authentic Disney (released November 2003):
Pin 25886

Even though Disney's merchandise reportedly takes at least a year to get from "idea" to "on the shelves", there was a ridiculous outcry from pin collectors accusing Disney of stealing a "fan's" bootleg pin idea. Really?!? In any case, it was ONLY Disney's right to produce and sell a Stitch pin anyways! But, that's the kind of thinking that arises in people's heads, regardless that the bootlegger was committing a crime in the first place!

That's why...
*Disney needs to make their own merchandise
*Fans need to get a job with Disney if they have a Disney merchandise idea/design that they want to see sold to the public
*Or fans need to create exclusively for themselves and keep their work hidden where Disney can in no way try to "steal their artwork"

This is the last post we are going to make on this thread. In all efforts to help educate and help inform, there will still be those who will basically say "sure, it's wrong" and at the same time say "but, oh well". :sad:

In regards to this thread, this topic, this issue, the perfect ending to this whole fiasco would be for Evilos to just stop creating any more Vinylmation pins. Maybe, hopefully, if he stops right now he can save himself a lot of bigger trouble from Disney, Muppets, and many concerned traders in pin community who are worried about the future of pin trading. The end. :salute:

I dont want to be apart of a witch hunt either I just think its wrong its illegal copyright infringement is a federal crime with a 250,000 penalty and up to 5 years in prison so that in my book makes it WRONG

You know the funny thing is with the stitch example I think the bootleg one is cuter! lol

caligirlUCR said:

You know the funny thing is with the stitch example I think the bootleg one is cuter! lol

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I was thinking the same thing :lol:

Cicada said:

I don't quite understand the targeted nature of this thread, when there are many others doing the same thing, and possibly on a bigger scale.

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IMO, it's simply because Chris posts here, and the nameless people who create naked Jessicas or the pins from this Dizpins thread don't.

For my part, I don't care really one way or another. As they say, I don't have skin in this game. It's ultimately between Disney and Chris. But I would want friends of Chris, and Chris to be approaching this from an "eyes open" standpoint. I've seen people (well, internet people) who thought they were doing something okay, and enjoying the success of their hard work, be shocked when the C&D letter appears. It's one thing to know you are in violation, but taking your chances that nothing will come of it, and assuming that you aren't doing anything wrong at all.

Things happen. For years, the Alice in Wonderland ride operated a certain way. Then some OSHA guy takes his family on vacation, spies a CM walking the track, and the next thing you know Disney shuts the ride down and has to install railings. It's not like OSHA hadn't been in the park for 30 years. But at that moment, it became an issue. Maybe Chris has been off the radar, but the more advertising via sites like this, more people gathering around his table at a PTN, more releases, it could add up to be a real problem for him. Maybe it won't. Hopefully, for him, Disney will embrace him as an artist. But the potential exists for it to go another way.

The "we're getting on Chris' case because he's visible and the Chinese sellers of porn-pins aren't," explanation seems kind of weak to me. Those auctions are on eBay when they obviously shouldn't be (for many reasons under eBay protocol). If people cared enough to have them removed, there's a "Report" button in each listing that'll get the job done and get those sellers off eBay pretty quickly. But people don't care enough to do that. Why they cared enough to make this thread and populate it with, in some cases, very time-invested posts, I couldn't tell you. If I had the time or inclination to help crack down on anything in this hobby, I'd be investing my minutes in reporting those inappropriate eBay listings.

Having seen how happy alot of people are to receive one of Chris' pins as a gift, I just can't bring myself to prioritize that happiness over a "letter of the law" type viewpoint of possible trademark issues. I don't see any harm being done; I don't take any personal offense to it; and it doesn't seem like Disney cares whatsoever, so yeah. It seems like a total non-issue, and nothing but making mountains out of molehills.

-JD

hopemax said:

Maybe Chris has been off the radar, but the more advertising via sites like this, more people gathering around his table at a PTN, more releases, it could add up to be a real problem for him.

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This is totally possible. I just want to acknowledge that, as hopemax's post appeared while I was writing mine.

-JD

Gloomy said:

Why they cared enough to make this thread and populate it with, in some cases, very time-invested posts, I couldn't tell you. If I had the time or inclination to help crack down on anything in this hobby, I'd be investing my minutes in reporting those inappropriate eBay listings.

Having seen how happy alot of people are to receive one of Chris' pins as a gift, I just can't bring myself to prioritize that happiness over a "letter of the law" type viewpoint of possible trademark issues.

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One person started the topic and everyone else is just voicing their opinion. I highly doubt that anyone saying that it is wrong is losing any sleep over it. Do I like what he is doing? No. Do I like the porn fantasy pins? Heck no. But do I care about it enough to go storming the castle? Ugh....no. He can keep on doing what he is doing and hopefully he won't get into serious trouble. But that doesn't mean that I have to approve of it or refrain from commenting just because I'm not 100% passionate about it. That's what forums are for...discussion. If you want to see a thread about the other pins, then start one and people will comment there too.

Also, I just want to point out that people often get worked up about free stuff. Set out a basket of crummy trinkets in any corporate office, or heaven forbid cupcakes, and people will swam like vultures. So, I'm just a little skeptical that these pins alone make people's faces light up. Walk up to anyone and give them a real Disney pin for free and you'll likely get the same reaction.

Everyone makes valid points however and I say this because I happen to work for this agency and Have real knowledge of these situations, if and I dont care how small the offender this is brought to the FBI's attention we dont care how small or how little the person makes if a complaint is filed and the holder of the copyright files a "Criminal Complaint" they will look into, investigate and prosecute anyone who violates the infringement laws. I know of one case in particular that the person only reproduced 5 and I repeat 5 illegal pins sold them a complaint was filed and that person ended up in federal court. This is NO different than street peddlers who sell a Prado bag instead of a Prada bag and believe me they are arrested so my question has to be IS IT WORTH a fine and PRISON? to make what at the most 1000K? These laws are in place to protect the original artist or company. If it was your ORIGINAL creation and you copyrighted it how would you feel? Now many people will ask what about all the fake pins? Well they are manufactured in a country where we have NO jurisdiction all we can do is go after the sellers of this merchandise and YES it is done all the time. IF you buy pins that turn out to be fakes and the person does NOT refund you your money and you can PROVE they knowingly sold you counterfeit pins AND you file a criminal complaint ( NOTE you have to file the complaint we dont have crystal balls) it will be investigated and prosecuted if the evidence is there. AGAIN I ASK IS BREAKING THE LAW WORTH THE CONSEQUENCES? And YES it is against the law.

OH also as someone and I dont remember who yes people even I use likeness in our signatures the difference is and this is a HUGE one we do not do it for PROFIT it is in a private forum open to members and AGAIN not for profit that is the difference there. Just like recording a movie and using that recording for PRIVATE purposes as long as you DONT sell it for profit you are within the law. Okay I am off the soap box now.

swim2sea said:

Here is what I think (and I'm emphasize the "I"). Disney doesn't give a hoot about scrappers. As long as they are making money on pins, they will not do a thing. I have sent many letters and even included emails from China and don't even get a response. Disney doesn't care. It promotes pins and that means money for them. Unless someone at Disney gets the "message", then nothing will be done. It's been going on way too long for them not to know about it. As far as what is "legal", everyone at some point has borrowed something that has a copyright. We use avatars, signatures, and even Rocketeer uses an image of Donald Duck. If evertime someone used the image we would all be in jail. Leave the legal to the lawyers and pin trading to pin traders. If we educate ourselves and those around us, we could put a dent in scrappers. Thanks for letting me sound off.

Click to expand...

+1

caligirlUCR said:

You know the funny thing is with the stitch example I think the bootleg one is cuter! lol

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+1 :lol:

there are lots of intangibles at play here. I have played video games competitively in the past -- there is tons of video game footage, especially tournament games, on YouTube -- some of which do not fall under "fair use" and COULD, legally, be taken down under the DMCA. Why don't they do this? It's because they would be shooting themselves in the foot. there is nothing to gain for them by having skilled matches or tournament footage taken off of YouTube (unless it is a game that is unreleased and parties involved are still under an NDA). These videos give further promotion to the companies' games and the fans are taking their own time, money and other resources to put these things up. It's free marketing for them.

For me, looking at this scenario, it's trivial at best. The fantasy pins being made are actually good for everyone involved. Disney actually wins in the scenario -- Tron is being promoted, Vinylmation is being promoted AND Pin Trading is being promoted. How much did it cost them in "lost sales" (which again, they lost nothing -- if someone wants a pin Disney does not themselves make, then it has no bearing on a purchaser's decision -- if you want something bad enough, you want it, period). So let's say even if you can consider these "lost sales", it costed Disney what? a thousand bucks? I can tell you that they wont get much in the way of marketing for promoting three separate products for $1000.

They lost $25 but potentially gain a customer who is going to buy more "official" Disney pins, vinylmations, or tron merchandise.


Margaret said it best -- "Leave the legal to the lawyers and pin trading to pin traders"

Have you ever gone faster than the speed limit? right is right and wrong is wrong. After all, that's the law!

What's your favorite Disney pin? for what reason? all other things being equal (same quality, exact same art, etc) but Disney did NOT make it -- would it still be your favorite?

Cicada said:

What's your favorite Disney pin? for what reason? all other things being equal (same quality, exact same art, etc) but Disney did NOT make it -- would it still be your favorite?

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Actually....no. It wouldn't be my favorite because it would feel tainted in a way. I can't really explain it.... I don't want a poser, I want the real thing. If I were open to non-Disney stuff I would make my own. If it isn't going to be a Disney pin then I'd rather have a pin that I desinged than a pin some random person designed.

And yeah, him alone may be a drop in the bucket. But if he can do it, why can't I? Why can't you? Why can't anyone else? If more people followed suit I think Disney would be a little less tolerating of it.

And I fail to see where these are promoting Disney really. If they are on such a small scale that they don't hurt Disney's business then any free marketing it does itsn't going to help it either. He is promoting himself more than Disney. If he is setting up shop at PTN then everyone at PTN already knows about pins and were already Disney customers.

My biggest concern is that he is opening the door for others to do this as well. The fantasy pin boom I believe happened before I started collecting and I really haven't seen new ones since, so the ones you see on ebay are old and have been in circulation for awhile. I just hope that this doesn't trigger another spree of them being made, which, if he is making money off of them, it just might.

Overall, I don't like fantasy pins at all. The only one that I kind of like is the Shark Repellant one because it actually pertains to pin traders and not Disney.

Wrong is wrong and right is right said it best Do I break laws NO I do not. Do I speed guess what NO I dont however speeding is not making a PROFIT illegally. And thats what I have the issue with. If everyone said "Oh well" we would be a lawless society. So what is the big deal on copyright infringement ? Thats what you ask. Well if you can ignore that law what else are you willing to "overlook"? Disney needs no help in promoting and believe me Evilos making these pins does not make people run out and buy Legit pins I would imagine just the opposite with the mentality of well I just bought this one cheaper than disney sells them for whats the harm in buying more counterfeit bootleg fantasy whatever you want to call them. Bottom line it devalues the legitimate pins. NOT to mention again its ILLEGAL. As far as videos on you tube I wasnt aware anyone made a PROFIT from those. I just cant agree with breaking laws as trivial at best. Again where do you draw the line? Petty Theft, Felonies,Copyright infringement ? How would DPF feel if all of a sudden someone starts making items they trivially borrowed from you? Wouldnt feel to good. This is not a just a matter of lost sales to disney its morally and legally wrong. What happens to the new pin trader and we have all been there who doesnt know the difference I mean after all when you start collecting pins you really dont know the difference. Oh well right I cant ever agree this is right in any form.

I've been staying out of this controversy for awhile, and I'm still planning to! This is a different question related to this discussion.

If a fantasy (bootleg/whatever) pin is made, is Disney less likely to make an authorized pin depicting the same scene? One reason I ask is that there is a fantasy pin of the photograph of Lilo's family with Stitch's picture taped in (Pin 34123: Bootleg- Stitch and Family Photo). I have this pin, but the colors are WAAAY off. I would love Disney to make a better pin of this scene; my question is are they not doing this pin because of the bootleg pin?

Related to this topic, if someone has been anxiously awaiting a Tron vinylmation pin, will the presence of these fantasy pins make Disney less likely to make authorized Tron vinylmation pins? If so, then these creations ARE hurting the pin trading community...

unibear said:

Related to this topic, if someone has been anxiously awaiting a Tron vinylmation pin, will the presence of these fantasy pins make Disney less likely to make authorized Tron vinylmation pins? If so, then these creations ARE hurting the pin trading community...

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Nope. We know they're already releasing their own Tron Vinylmations in the future, and it's pretty much a given that they'll turn them into pins.

-JD

Tabbikat2219 said:

As far as videos on you tube I wasnt aware anyone made a PROFIT from those.

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They can and do. In fact, that is actually a letigitmate source of income for many young people. Ever heard of vloggers? all they do is take video of their daily lives or make some interesting videos and use revenue sharing (ad revenue) through things like google adsense and get paid for it. There are plenty of channels like this.

unibear said:

Related to this topic, if someone has been anxiously awaiting a Tron vinylmation pin, will the presence of these fantasy pins make Disney less likely to make authorized Tron vinylmation pins? If so, then these creations ARE hurting the pin trading community...

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Of course not. Disney can do whatever they want.

As most of you know I can get very opinionated. I am not going to comment directly about this topic as I dont want to potentially get bashed as I have in the past. I will say however that at least bashing has gone to PM rather than in public.

What I will say is we all have different point of views but I have still not seen any legal quotes or Disney copyright information listed. Also, what if, AND I REPEAT WHAT IF, Christopher does in fact have permission to make the pins he has made? All of this debate over a moot point. (spell check moot).

Since no-one has done so I will add some real legal information: This is not my opinion or me stating facts, it is actual written copyright laws pertaining to Disneylands copyright and trademark. Once you read it, there can only be one opinion and that is the right one. I also want to say that not that this makes it right or wrong, I do know Christopher personally and as far as selling the pins, this was not his intent. He honestly gave these to friends and family and some buyers of his vinyl figures as a token of appreciation. When they started showing up on eBay, he was extremly angry.

I will also say that Ignorance is no excuse of the law. Just because you thought what you were doing is legal is not excuse.
Check out this information, again, this is actually from Disney Legal Department and a written legal document that leaves no doubt. This is the law as written pertaining to all companies including Disney. Please understand that I am not taking sides. I did mention he is a friend but look at what I am posting below. Friend or not, there are laws so you decide for yourself but rather than heresay, here is factual legal info:

. Intellectual Property (continued)

The federal copyright laws have rules governing the use of books, movies, records, and other works.
The United States Copyright Act protects original "works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression." The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to reproduce the work, to create derivative works, to distribute copies to the public, and to perform or display the work publicly. Any violation of a copyright owner's exclusive right constitutes an infringement. A person who infringes a copyright willfully and for commercial advantage is subject to criminal as well as civil prosecution. Every Cast Member and employee acting on behalf of the Company must honor all copyrights held by other companies.

There are circumstances, however, where it is proper to reproduce portions of copyrighted work for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching and research. This is called "fair use" and does not constitute copyright infringement. Since copyright infringement issues are often highly technical, Cast Members and employees should consult with the Corporate Legal Department whenever there is any question as to permissible use.
The federal trademark laws prohibit the use of another company's trademarks.
Trademarks are symbols (including words) companies use to identify their goods or services. For instance, DISNEYLAND is a registered trademark of the Company. Under United States law, a federally registered trademark provides the registrant with nationwide protection against another's use. Any use of another party's trademark that gives rise to a likelihood of confusion as to the source or sponsorship of a product or service constitutes "trademark infringement" and violates the law. It is also impermissible to duplicate the packaging of a rival firm in a way that deceives or is likely to confuse the public. Every Cast Member and employee acting on behalf of the Company must honor all trademarks held by others.
The federal patent laws prohibit the unauthorized use of patented inventions.
The United States patent laws protect inventions for new and useful processes, machines, and compositions of matter. The owner of a United States patent has the exclusive right to make, use and sell the patented invention. Any violation of a patent owner's exclusive right constitutes an infringement. Every Cast Member and employee acting on behalf of the Company must honor all patents held by others. Cast Members and employees should assist the Company in protecting its copyrights, patents and trademarks.
The Company has an extensive and valuable collection of copyrights, patents and trademarks. Substantial effort and money is expended to protect this valuable property from infringement. Any Cast Member or employee who knows or suspects that someone has infringed a copyright, patent or a trademark of the Company should advise the Corporate Legal Department.

This is just a small example of a much larger document but I just wanted to see something actually legal here to continue a good debate with knowledge of copyright, trademark, etc. Take time to look up any laws on Google and there is a wealth of information.

In closing, I will say that there was a case of a preschool (many of you may have heard this one in the news) that on the outside and inside of the school had images of disney characters (really good ones) and one day the right person saw these and contacted the authorities and the school was told to either pay a huge royality or remove them immediatly. It made the news and they ended up having to remove the images and Disney took no further action.

And one last thing, C&D is not always Chip and Dale, it means CEASE AND DESIST.

My opinion is this (forgive me if any of this was previously stated as I got tired of reading everything), If the pin is different than the actual character or if the pin has part of the face blocked or is just an outline and there is not a Copyright Disney on the back, his isn't guilty of anything. Just because Disney has a green frog named Kermit does not mean you can not have a different frog named Kermit as long as it is different. We thought about doing T-Shirts for another site for a while and found out that if we were to put an actual Disney Character on it we would be in violation with Disney Copyrights but if we used a black outline of a character or a character with only half his face showing so that the other half could possible be different is was not. I would believe pins to be the same. I have not looked at his auctions but I am all for fantasy pins and have many in my collection. I also have some outright copyright violation pins too and I love them all. I think if his pins do not cross that line more power to him. He has found a way to pay for his pin addiction, good for him... LOL. If he has crossed the line Disney will contact him as they did when we started the T-Shirts. They do pay attention and act when they want to. (When it comes to pins they don't want to because it makes them money in the long run as far as scrappers are concerned.) As always... JMO

iamdisneydan said:

Since no-one has done so I will add some real legal information: This is not my opinion or me stating facts, it is actual written copyright laws pertaining to Disneylands copyright and trademark. Once you read it, there can only be one opinion and that is the right one. I also want to say that not that this makes it right or wrong, I do know Christopher personally and as far as selling the pins, this was not his intent. He honestly gave these to friends and family and some buyers of his vinyl figures as a token of appreciation. When they started showing up on eBay, he was extremly angry.

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+1

By the DSF Event last year we hadn't even met him yet, and he'd already extended his thanks with one of his pins, so it definitely is not his intent to sell nor make a profit off of any of this. Once they leave his hands, it isnt his responsibility nor fault that they end up on eBay.