Hake's Fall Auction - Catalog is up, for auctions closing mid-November

[Ozzie1988]

So, is there more than one company grading pins (other than PinPics?). If so, it would also be helpful to see how the multiple grading scales line up.

i can tell you Pin Pics is not doing the Grading, the real grader is a pin collector i without a doubt trust in grading, i don't know why it's listed as pinpics grading maybe becuse there is a partnership? i dont know but i do know pinpics does not grade

 

[Ozzie1988]

Isnt' a PP called a Pre-Production? Not a "Printer's Proof?"

printer's proof -This impression is exactly like the edition and is the property of the printers responsible for the pulling of the edition

Artist's Proofs should be exactly the same as the edition in quality and image though they are outside the numbered edition. They are identified with "A.P." or "Artists Proof" on the impression. They are often retained by the artist or publisher.


sounds almost the same to me

(http://rogallery.com/glossary.htm)

We all know eBay sales for high value pins have been shill bid up. Or people will list a new pin for a high amount, have a friend buy it to set the market price and then relist 3 or 4 and eat the final value fee once. eBay however does give infractions for suspicious bidding. Hakes who knows. Do I honestly believe there are just x number of people out there with $xxx,xxx,xxx waiting to blow on Disney memorbilia? no. There is no way these pins sell for that much to an honest pin collector just because it is graded. So that only leaves gullible rich people with nothing better to do or shill bidding. Would gullible rich people really bid $8k for a R/C Rapunzel? I doubt it, and no active pin collector is going to bid that much. The only reason R/C Rapunzel cost so much is because PinPics buys up everyone that comes to market to mainpulate the price. Rasputin finally had enough and outbid them driving it up even more. But hey, maybe I don't know anything and I have never been involved with an auction house? But, we all know eBay scrambles the buyer's name the same way everytime and if you know their feedback score you can find out who it is. Also, in a live auction, unless they have someone bidding for them, people raise their little paddles and you can see clear as day who it is. Show me one PinPics graded pin that has sold for 3x mark-up on eBay or DPF or PinTalk or anywhere else other thank Hakes Auctions. If that isn't the point, to prove PinPics grading increases value exponentially, then what is?

I am a real collector and I was going to bid on the auction, 4,000 was my Max Bid on Rapunzel but Kilian had a higher bid set up so I backed off in the end we both lost the R/C. Hanks has been around before eBay and they sell many more items than eBay specializing in high end items, this kind of auction house brings bigger players into the game if not true and serious collectors. Collectors that don't mind on paying these prices, look at RC Rapunzel before someone was foolish enough to buy on at 1000+ she sat on eBay unsold and it was considered over price and look at how that went. No one forces anyone to buy a pin at any one price.

EBay market and hanks audiences are two different sales points; it’s like comparing Tiffany’s C.O. and Robin Brothers. Yes the merchandise can be the same but the name brings in more diverse clientele than the other. As dose Wal-Mart and target why do customers pay more at target when Wal-Mart has it for less? I can go on with this but I think you get my point.

 

[erikr]

Ozzie, do you work for Pinpics?

 

[Ozzie1988]

Ozzie, do you work for Pinpics?

i do not work for or with pin pics, i do know some of the members that work for and own Pinpics and have had the pleasure to have a talk with them. i was against grading at first but over time persuaded to a neutral mindset

 

[KILJOY667]

I never said I was gonna bid $4000+ dude. I think I placed a max bid of $3200ish the last time around. I lost anyways because I think it ended up at around $5200+ plus buyer premium to auction house.

I love all these conspiracy theories around this subject. People are always skeptics. LOL

As for the Ariel PP listed on Hakes right now. Yes, that is mine. Hakes mailed me a contract for the consignment and I signed and mailed it back. I had two pins sent in for grading and the Ariel PP was selected for this auction. The other pin which was approved for high grade an R/C Aurora was declined for this auction. I'm assuming because there was one listed right now and they had beat me to it.

Someone also questioned why the DP Snow White is more expensive than the DP Ariel. That is simply because of the condition/grade. In the world of graded collectibles, CONDITION is KING. Much more valuable than desirability.

 

[Romancing_Train]

OMG cat-butt Oliver! want! XD

 

[kupo1121]

The unfortunate reality is that anyone can manipulate an auction, regardless of how/where an item is auctioned. Even in an old-style auction run by a guy with a gavel, someone who wants to artificially raise prices can send a friend to bid.

This is sadly true. It's not Hakes fault, eBay's fault, or any auction site or company's fault, it's just that auctions in and of themselves are easily rigged, regardless of who is running them. Like eBay, Hakes could easily be rigged by the seller themselves and Hakes would never be at fault because how can they know? It's not like they hire personal investigators for every winner :lol:

Someone also questioned why the DP Snow White is more expensive than the DP Ariel. That is simply because of the condition/grade. In the world of graded collectibles, CONDITION is KING. Much more valuable than desirability.

I still find that very hard to believe given that DP Snow White can't even fetch $200 on eBay (go check completed listings now to see), so being priced at $700 from the start is a 350% increase right out of the gate O_O The R/C Rapunzel didn't even go that high, only ending at roughly 230% higher than what it goes for O_O Maybe it's just me...

 

[Ozzie1988]

I never said I was gonna bid $4000+ dude. I think I placed a max bid of $3200ish the last time around. I lost anyways because I think it ended up at around $5200+ plus buyer premium to auction house.

I love all these conspiracy theories around this subject. People are always skeptics. LOL

As for the Ariel PP listed on Hakes right now. Yes, that is mine. Hakes mailed me a contract for the consignment and I signed and mailed it back. I had two pins sent in for grading and the Ariel PP was selected for this auction. The other pin which was approved for high grade an R/C Aurora was declined for this auction. I'm assuming because there was one listed right now and they had beat me to it.

Someone also questioned why the DP Snow White is more expensive than the DP Ariel. That is simply because of the condition/grade. In the world of graded collectibles, CONDITION is KING. Much more valuable than desirability.

i am pretty sure you said a higher number that that... unless you were just blowing air

OMG cat-butt Oliver! want! XD

you mean "Twerking" oliver!!!!

 

[markheardjr]

printer's proof -This impression is exactly like the edition and is the property of the printers responsible for the pulling of the edition

Artist's Proofs should be exactly the same as the edition in quality and image though they are outside the numbered edition. They are identified with "A.P." or "Artists Proof" on the impression. They are often retained by the artist or publisher.

sounds almost the same to me

(http://rogallery.com/glossary.htm)



I am a real collector and I was going to bid on the auction, 4,000 was my Max Bid on Rapunzel but Kilian had a higher bid set up so I backed off in the end we both lost the R/C. Hanks has been around before eBay and they sell many more items than eBay specializing in high end items, this kind of auction house brings bigger players into the game if not true and serious collectors. Collectors that don't mind on paying these prices, look at RC Rapunzel before someone was foolish enough to buy on at 1000+ she sat on eBay unsold and it was considered over price and look at how that went. No one forces anyone to buy a pin at any one price.

EBay market and hanks audiences are two different sales points; it’s like comparing Tiffany’s C.O. and Robin Brothers. Yes the merchandise can be the same but the name brings in more diverse clientele than the other. As dose Wal-Mart and target why do customers pay more at target when Wal-Mart has it for less? I can go on with this but I think you get my point.

It's HAKES!!! Not Hanks! And PP has meant Pre-Production in pin trading forever. Try to find me a "printer's proof" reference anywhere on pinpics? But there's an entire group dedicated to "pre-production" or "pre-production prototype." And I don't care if its eBay, hakes, or Sotheby's. You're not getting 2x, 3x, 4x, the market price at one verses the other. And we all know now its Tomarts that is grading the pins for PinPics, obviously LANSAM isn't just doing it for themselves. But how he grades is questioned and no reference has been provided. With al those flaws in the first R/C Rapunzel and it was graded higher than the one selling this one around and this one has fewer visible flaws.

 

[Happy Haunt]

Not getting involved in the other discussions/arguments here... but I do want to say that I'm pretty sure PP means Pre-Production. In other words a prototype.

 

[tyleet87]

That Alice PODM has a great cell! Too bad it's starting so high!

 

[a4matte]

Not getting involved in the other discussions/arguments here... but I do want to say that I'm pretty sure PP means Pre-Production. In other words a prototype.

That would be correct. I work in print design and it works generally similar. Everything we do is designed first (think the flat drawings you see of some pins). Once that's approved, it goes to the printer/producer who does a single (or otherwise very small) run for the designers and client to see what the final piece will look like when made correctly (Artist Proof, in pin talk. In print we will often do an in-house prototype/comp first and send it to a printer for an actual produced prototype after). Any final tweaks to the colors and such are made now. When everything is finalized you get your PP/Prototype (copies of the final in my case. Sometimes they're labeled as such, depending on what the project is). Sometimes changes are made after this, but not too often, and usually they don't go through the whole process again. Things do change slightly in the process, but that's generally how it goes.

And just saying, I don't mind the Hakes auctions. If there's a pin someone really wants for whatever reason, and they want it to be really special to them, I can see why they'd want to buy it graded and protected. Of course, not everyone wants to go that route, but to each his own. There are pins out there that if I owned I'd have it in a nice archival quality frame or in a sealed box for various reasons.

EDIT: Had my AP/PP backwards. Print terms are a little different depending on your printer

 

[hopemax]

Out of curiosity, I Googled "Printer's Proof." It's an art term, indicating the copies of a piece that are kept by the printer when they do the final print runs. They are used by the printer to make sure the copies being produced for sale match the level of quality expected by the artist. So they are basically identical to the final, released product. And in the cases I've found, printer's proof refer to things that are printed. Like lithographs, not for something like a pin.

Disney's pre-production pins oftentimes are very different than what is eventually released for sale. Pinpics own article about it.

A Pre Production/Prototype pin, or PP pin, is a pin that is created to give Disney artists a general idea of what the pin will eventually look like. Because these pins are only used to compare artwork, there are only 1 – 3 PP pins made. If Disney finds something that isn't up to standard, a second group of PP pins will be sent to Disney for their approval. PP Pins from late 2007 to present day will, in most cases, feature a “PP” stamp on the back of the pin.

What we are used to with Disney pin PP's seems like they are a step before what might be theoretically called a printer's proof. There are probably cases where the pre-production pin is very close to whatever the manufacturer is using for their comparison product. But after so many years of using the term pre-production, why change the terminology now?

Unless these pins aren't coming through Disney but from the pin manufacturer themselves (ie the "printer"). If they were coming from the pin manufacturer, then another term would be needed for the things they are allowed to keep and not turn over to Disney. Not sure why, they'd want people to make *that* connection, but otherwise it just sounds like someone is trying to "fancy" things up.

 

[a4matte]

Out of curiosity, I Googled "Printer's Proof." It's an art term, indicating the copies of a piece that are kept by the printer when they do the final print runs. They are used by the printer to make sure the copies being produced for sale match the level of quality expected by the artist. So they are basically identical to the final, released product. And in the cases I've found, printer's proof refer to things that are printed. Like lithographs, not for something like a pin.

Disney's pre-production pins oftentimes are very different than what is eventually released for sale. Pinpics own article about it.



What we are used to with Disney pin PP's seems like they are a step before what might be theoretically called a printer's proof. There are probably cases where the pre-production pin is very close to whatever the manufacturer is using for their comparison product. But after so many years of using the term pre-production, why change the terminology now?

Unless these pins aren't coming through Disney but from the pin manufacturer themselves (ie the "printer"). If they were coming from the pin manufacturer, then another term would be needed for the things they are allowed to keep and not turn over to Disney. Not sure why, they'd want people to make *that* connection, but otherwise it just sounds like someone is trying to "fancy" things up.

If you're going by what I had, sorry, I had it reversed. Was typing quick before a meeting.

The PP is the like the gold standard. "This is what you should expect" pin that is supplied to Disney and used by the manufacturer for quality control. The AP is what the artist (what I do in print) see. I do a lot of displays and packaging, so my AP would be a 1/4 size paper mockup we'd put together in house.

When I've worked on lapel pin projects in the past (not Disney) our manufacturer used the same terminology as the printers because that's what's generally known in our line of business.

 

[Lamorak]

Grading is probably a little subjective and the numbers/grades may have some variance. It's a matter of comparison really. So what does one do? Probably gather as many of the same item as possible and inspect each one, to determine if any particular flaws are present in all the items. If a consistent flaw is found, it would likely be considered a manufacturing flaw and not something that would affect a condition grade, as all items would theoretically possess the same flaw. After that, it's a matter of checking for all the basics: dings, dents, scrapes, color fade, corrosion, and so on and so on.

I can't imagine pin grading strays that far from what I've described above. Still doesn't concern me, as I can't financially play in that market. But it is fun to sit and eat popcorn, while everyone tosses conspiracy theories back and forth.

 

[Ozzie1988]

It's HAKES!!! Not Hanks! And PP has meant Pre-Production in pin trading forever. Try to find me a "printer's proof" reference anywhere on pinpics? But there's an entire group dedicated to "pre-production" or "pre-production prototype." And I don't care if its eBay, hakes, or Sotheby's. You're not getting 2x, 3x, 4x, the market price at one versus the other. And we all know now its Tomarts that is grading the pins for PinPics, obviously LANSAM isn't just doing it for themselves. But how he grades is questioned and no reference has been provided. With all those flaws in the first R/C Rapunzel and it was graded higher than the one selling this one around and this one has fewer visible flaws.

Oh wow what can I say autocorrect strikes again? It was so small I didn't even notice or care that it changed the spelling from Hakes to Hanks, yes no one said PP has meant anything else but pre-production, I was giving you the definitions that I found online and simply said they sound the same to me. Remember because I think you keep forgetting HAKES is new to the world of pins and up to this point has dealt with art and other printed collectables the same argument can be made in return that in that community Printers Proof has been used so why change it for their customers this late in the game? It’s obvious they would go by eBay they know, I know Kilian didn't write the description for the PP Ariel so I assume Hakes wrote them according to the information given.

I don't see why we should be fixed on a one unified price mentality? Prices go on person to person rule or every purchase will be the same on all sites. People on all websites will bid what they feel is worth of the item in question. I understand that since it’s hidden and kept out of view there is suspicion as to the authenticity of a winning bid. For me I look at the market, maybe they are unsure of other sites and the pins being sold so they don’t bid at such sites, they may only be familiar with Hakes so they trust and are willing to bid more on an item listed. We can only speculate a reason to explain the bids since like you pointed out earlier the bidders are hidden from one another and that may leave room for doubt.

Unless you have held said Rapunzel RC in your hand you can't go by a picture, we don’t know if the case was damaged or scratched which in turn reflected on the pin. For all we know we did see a mint pin that photographed horribly, look at PinPics countless pins are listed with pictures on the site that simply don’t give the pin any justice. I know you have told me about a pin that the pin looks better in person than the picture on PinPics. The opposite can also be said about some pins that look better on PinPics but horrible in person.

 

[KILJOY667]

Hakes just mailed me a 3 pound catalog

 

[Rasputin]

Hakes just mailed me a 3 pound catalog

I received one also. I sure wasn't expecting that.

 

[The Wise One]

Ooh lawdy. I had to clutch my pearls when I saw the prices of some of those pins.... yikes!

 

[d.ducks]

Auction closing.

 

[fireheadfred]

wowzer

 

[ryanfury]

If something didnt sell who can I contact about buying it now?

 

[hopemax]

At least prices don't seem to be quite so stratospheric this time around. It's just the usual suspects. I am amused by Snow White DP currently being higher than Rapunzel. That matches more what I would expect from the greater Disneyana sphere, but is probably new to pin people.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

if something doesn't sell you might want to contact hakes and see if they have contact info??? IDK....

Anyway, are we all going to have the same arguments every time a Hakes auction runs graded pins? Might be nice to see some new points in the arguments. ((that's why i didn't get into it this time))

I love you all. The same folks grind their teeth and get mad, and the same people say it is ok.... Every time.

 

[starry_solo]

at least they got bid on. yesterday, most of the pins had no bids...