PLEASE HELP. Determining the (Trading) value of a pin

[Cicada]

I think the same holds true with all value pins. Something to also think about with eBay is this.
I used the example of the Nemo POH (or a lot of other ones too). It was in the stores at DLR for a couple of months, yet, it was selling on a regular basis on eBay for $29.95 (some were even higher) Now this is all while you can still go buy one for $9.95 less discounts at DLR. Of course, the people who are buying these are usually in other states far away and they cant get to the park and they dont have someone to go get it for them. (Unless they were part of the group "Friends of iamdisneydan" (plug).

To us locals, it's still a $9.95 pin less 10 - 20% but to them, it's a $29.95 pin and they are happy to pay it. So even geograpically, it makes a difference. And if you notice, most of the time (not all the time) most of those pins are listed by sellers in So. Cal.

So even the bargin bin pins from DSF you will see online for $20 - $30.00 and they sell, but chances are, you would not trade $30.00 worth of pins for one being a local (just an asumption)

this is very true.

as i mentioned in a post a while back, i listen to a podcast for trading card games, and in one episode they were discussing the ethics of trading, now this may not necessarily directly apply to pins, but it basically went like this:

• In the current legal competition format of Magic: The Gathering there exists a card valued at about $90 (Jace, The Mind Sculptor; non-foil version)
• If a kid buys a pack of cards ($3.99) and say he pulls one of these chase rares out of the pack, but doesnt know (or even care) it's worth so much.
• Said kid needs 1-2 more of a certain card to complete his competitive deck -- that card may be worth $5/ea
• an older trader/player comes along and offers to trade -- he gets the 2-3 cards he needs to complete his deck, and the older guy just wants the Jace (the $90 card)

is this unethical? Both parties get what they want, and it's not like it costed the kid $90 to get that chase rare, it costed him $3.99 for the pack of cards. so, to him, it was an awesome deal -- he gets the $15 or so of singles he was looking for, and all he paid was $3.99. The values of the cards is just "on paper". sure the older guy can go out and make some power trades with the $90 card he just got, but is it really that bad? both people got what they wanted.

now, this probably doesnt apply to pins, because the values of pins dont shoot up very quickly (tends to be a steady increase in value over time as they become harder to find/get), and frankly, many pin traders are pretty rabid when it comes to the release of desirable low-LE pins, so I wouldn't really expect an 8-10 year old to come up on a DA LE100 or LE25-50 or anything of that nature, if one were to be released nowadays.

As dan mentioned the nemo POH pins were routinely selling on ebay for $30 -- yet at the time they were still available at the parks for $10, not even counting discounts of 10-20% or more. Is this taking advantage? If a person is willing to do a trade/pay a named price (even if it's lopsided) so long as both sides are happy with the result, is it unethical, simply because of what the pin is valued at?

I say no; the person is willing and able, after all. we're not committing pin "rape" here (excuse the wording). We're not forcing them to pay $30 for an $8 pin. However, the convenience of getting a pin they want, having it shipped, and arriving at their door without ever having to leave their house...it may be worth the price.

 

[erudolf]

I used the example of the Nemo POH (or a lot of other ones too). It was in the stores at DLR for a couple of months, yet, it was selling on a regular basis on eBay for $29.95 (some were even higher) Now this is all while you can still go buy one for $9.95 less discounts at DLR. Of course, the people who are buying these are usually in other states far away and they cant get to the park and they dont have someone to go get it for them. (Unless they were part of the group "Friends of iamdisneydan" (plug).

To us locals, it's still a $9.95 pin less 10 - 20% but to them, it's a $29.95 pin and they are happy to pay it. So even geograpically, it makes a difference. And if you notice, most of the time (not all the time) most of those pins are listed by sellers in So. Cal.

Are you SURE on this example???? What time period are you referring to? I watch POH pins and this one (the one I think you are referring to) has been selling for around or even below retail for quite some time. The only time that it may have reached $30 is when it was first released and people were speculating that it might be tough to get but even then I don't think it went that high on a regular basis. The marketability for the DLR POH pins essentially tanked when they doubled the edition size.

I wouldn't say that people in other states are "happy" to pay inflated prices either. As someone that lives "in the middle", I don't mind paying a reasonable markup for something I can't get myself, but triple the price for something that didn't even sell out? I don't think so....

A lot of pins will falsely peak right when they are released because people speculate and panic. They remember back to when they waited on one pin and now they can't find it anywhere so they buy the next one right away and then get burned because the pin isn't as popular and they paid way too much.

I get what you are trying to saying, but gennerally speaking, a pin that is still on the shelves will not sustain a price which is inflated to triple retail on the secondary market.

 

[Cicada]

A lot of pins will falsely peak right when they are released because people speculate and panic. They remember back to when they waited on one pin and now they can't find it anywhere so they buy the next one right away and then get burned because the pin isn't as popular and they paid way too much.

is this necessarily bad? what about being "better safe than sorry"? most of the speculation may be unfounded, sure, but what happens if the pin does become hard to get/find in the near future (though lately this hasn't been happening)? Many people will be wishing they bought theirs when they could, even if it was at an inflated price. And even if the price tanks, is it really that bad? if you wanted it bad enough at the time to pay a high price for it, it would have made you happy (at the time), and at that point it will have done its job. They'd never have known or may have never even gotten the pin, if they kept waiting. This is the same advice when people ask me for help when buying anything computer or tech/gadget related; find out what you want...and just buy it. Technology moves so fast that if you're always waiting around for the next best thing...you'll never get/buy ANYTHING simply because of the pace at which the industry moves. Just get what you want and upgrade when the time comes. The amount of usefulness/joy a product would bring you through its use normally far outweighs the time that you'd have to wait sitting around for the next best thing.

for example, this is best shown with digital cameras -- something new is coming out every month, or if you're only looking at one manufacturer, every few months (3-6 mos.) -- if you're waiting for an incremental upgrade to a specific model -- why? Think about the hundreds or thousands of pictures you could be taking within the next 3-6 months rather than sitting around "waiting" for the upgrade...

If the value of a pin tanking weighs so heavily on one's decision making, then that person might be in pin trading for the wrong reason(s).

I get what you are trying to saying, but generally speaking, a pin that is still on the shelves will not sustain a price which is inflated to triple retail on the secondary market.

agreed.

 

[iamdisneydan]

I just wanted to comment on 2 things. When I mention the POH, yes, it is when it was first released and for a few weeks. I was just making a point and of course based on speculation, may bought at that price thinking it may go even higher. Now, I have seen some go for as little as $1.99

Just like any pin release, when they first come out, there is a frenzy to get them. A great example (to me anyways) is the DeeBees. When they first came out, people traded like crazy for the. I could not even press them in my book and people were making offers. People were going crazy because they sold out and were not sure if they will ever be able to complete their sets (being a Limited Release? Thats up for debate too what that really means) After they did release them, and then more and more, the demand died and now you cant give them away.

As for the Kid with the card, My son collects cards too and I mentioned I have wholesaled sports cards and yes they can skyrocket to $90.00 one day and next month when there is a new release and focus changes, they may drop instantly to $10.00

As for the ethical practice, maybe because I have kids I see it a little differently. Yes, both are getting something they want and are happy and the kid only paid $3.99 and got $15.00 of cards in trade. He is technically happy. So if I give you a one hundred dollar bill for a dollar, would you be happy trading it for say 5 ones? (Maybe a bad example but trying to make some kind of point.) It still has value greater and you could have (should have?) got more for it.

I had a child all alone come to the trading tables. She was maybe 9 years old. She looked in my book and found a Winnie the Pooh pin she liked. It was a current Rack pin too. I asked her if she had a pin to trade and she said her Mom had given her 1 pin to trade. It was the Alice POH, and this is about when it was peaking in price. I could have said sure and just did it, but I did what I would hope someone would do for my kids, I asked her if she knew about the pin and if she had any idea of it's value. She did not so I asked her where her Mom was and she was in the hotel. We called the Mom, I explained what she had given her daughter and told her I would like it and would be willing to give a few pins for it, but more so wanted her to understand what she had given her Daughter.

I also know you hear all the time of people selling things at garage sales and they end up being woths thousands or 10's of thousands and you bought it for 50 cents. For me, Kids are in a different catagory and I can feel good about what I have done for them, where if it were an adult, I fully agree with your analogy. I guess it would be shame on the seller / trader for not knowing. But if they never find out, I am sure they are pretty happy. But what if a day later his friend get the same card and explains it's a $90.00 card, do you think the kids who traded who was happy would still be happy or a little dissappointed? Of course, this is just my opinion.

 

[erudolf]

is this necessarily bad? what about being "better safe than sorry"? most of the speculation may be unfounded, sure, but what happens if the pin does become hard to get/find in the near future (though lately this hasn't been happening)? Many people will be wishing they bought theirs when they could, even if it was at an inflated price.

My blanket answer: It depends.

If you are the seller it isn't bad at all. But if you are the buyer, it is bad. Not too many pins instantly sell out and become difficult to find anymore, so in the long run, if you always take the "better safe than sorry" approach you will end up very sorry. Say you did that with all of the POH pins one year. At $30 a pop for a total of $360. But, then you notice that about two months after every release the pins are still hanging around and you could have gotten them at retail or even less. That's $240 that you could have saved if you had just waited. Sure, you may get lucky once in a while and buy a pin for $30 and then it jumps to $100, but that is rare.

I think for the buyer, it leads to discouragement when pin collecting. Pins are an expensive hobby and even more so when you get fooled into paying artificially high prices (prices set by the sellers and not auctions).

And even if the price tanks, is it really that bad? if you wanted it bad enough at the time to pay a high price for it, it would have made you happy (at the time), and at that point it will have done its job. They'd never have known or may have never even gotten the pin, if they kept waiting. This is the same advice when people ask me for help when buying anything computer or tech/gadget related; find out what you want...and just buy it. Technology moves so fast that if you're always waiting around for the next best thing...you'll never get/buy ANYTHING simply because of the pace at which the industry moves. Just get what you want and upgrade when the time comes. The amount of usefulness/joy a product would bring you through its use normally far outweighs the time that you'd have to wait sitting around for the next best thing.

I agree with you on electronics as I liken them to cars. If you buy a camera or a car it is because you are going to get use out of it and you expect them to depreciate. You are putting miles on the car and actively using electronics so they will eventually wear out and be passed up by something better. Collectibles are a bit different though. When you buy it you don't expect the price to tank or for anything that can replace it to come out. They are often limited editions, so they "should" never be made again (unless Disney gets lazy and reuses artwork...). If it is a pin that you really really really want, then sure, better safe than sorry. But for most pins it isn't like that and we may decide to trade them out someday. If you are someone out of state and always have to pay a high markup then that is not a good situation to be in.

If the value of a pin tanking weighs so heavily on one's decision making, then that person might be in pin trading for the wrong reason(s).

Of a specific pin, yes, I agree. Either you really want it and the cost doesn't matter or you don't. But for someone trying to become actively involved in pin trading I think it is a big deal. You want to build a collection but if you always have to pay triple the price to get the same item and your colection continually drops in value, how are you possibly you to keep up?

Thankfully, prices do tend to come down on most pins after release so that people "in the middle" can get them at a reasonable price. But it takes time to learn that. I've been burned many time when I got nervous a pin would be gone and bought it at a higher price right after release. And now, after awhile when I decide that I don't really want them anymore, nobody else does either. It is discouraging. But, me being stubborn, I'm bound and determined to beat the system! I am very selective now on what I will buy right after release at markup. Others might get jaded by the experience and throw in the towel.

 

[Cicada]

My blanket answer: It depends.

If you are the seller it isn't bad at all. But if you are the buyer, it is bad. Not too many pins instantly sell out and become difficult to find anymore, so in the long run, if you always take the "better safe than sorry" approach you will end up very sorry. Say you did that with all of the POH pins one year. At $30 a pop for a total of $360. But, then you notice that about two months after every release the pins are still hanging around and you could have gotten them at retail or even less. That's $240 that you could have saved if you had just waited. Sure, you may get lucky once in a while and buy a pin for $30 and then it jumps to $100, but that is rare.

I think for the buyer, it leads to discouragement when pin collecting. Pins are an expensive hobby and even more so when you get fooled into paying artificially high prices (prices set by the sellers and not auctions).

it's a case of being informed, then.

if a person doesn't do enough research and continues to buy those $10 for $30, perhaps they should make a better effort at doing research? One would think that after seeing the value of a pin they paid $30 for drop, they would be more wary next time. while the "better safe than sorry" approach shouldnt be taken with every pin, being informed coupled with common sense will help a person make a good decision (at the time). If a person has done their research they should have a good "feel" for the market and understand when paying a certain amount for a pin is a good buy, and pass if not -- even if the value drops later, a person with knowledge will more often than not make more good purchases/trades than bad ones (in the long run) simply because they're informed.

 

[Cicada]

whoops, accidentally closed the thread. re-open!

 

[PinKitten]

it's a case of being informed, then.

if a person doesn't do enough research and continues to buy those $10 for $30, perhaps they should make a better effort at doing research? One would think that after seeing the value of a pin they paid $30 for drop, they would be more wary next time. while the "better safe than sorry" approach shouldnt be taken with every pin, being informed coupled with common sense will help a person make a good decision (at the time). If a person has done their research they should have a good "feel" for the market and understand when paying a certain amount for a pin is a good buy, and pass if not -- even if the value drops later, a person with knowledge will more often than not make more good purchases/trades than bad ones (in the long run) simply because they're informed.

i can attest to this...as a relatively new collector/trader, having started only a few months ago, i have DEFINITELY done a lot research (which for me doesn't take away from the fun of the hobby, because honestly, that's PART of it for me), at least on the pins i'm interested in. And also, I'm patient. So i have a much better sense now when to jump on a deal if it turns up and when to wait and see. everyone's feedback on this forum has helped immensely, from veteran collectors to newbies, and i learn something new every day.:bigthumb:

 

[Nettiejeanne]

Wow. I'm afraid I'm sadly under-educated on this subject. There have been times that I've over traded for a pin because I really, really wanted it. It was worth it to me. Sometimes, people have tried to get me to over trade, but it hasn't been worth it. And, as far as "worth it"? That's totally my personal opinion. I don't investigate the "worth" of each pin before I trade. Look at my signature!!! The Minnies I want really, really, badly, but can't afford to buy them (even if I could, since I can't find them ANYWHERE!) Would I trade multiples of LE's that I paid $15+ each for? Yup. How MUCH are they worth??? I have NO idea. How much are they worth to me? Dunno... I would have to weigh out the offer.

 

[PinKitten]

And I agree, the value TO YOU (not just monetary value or trading value) is really what's the most important, because again, it could be a 1 trading/200 wanting pin and if i don't like it, i don't want it, end of story. I've also in a couple cases over-traded a little, but i really wanted the pins in question. would i have done it again? probably. but again, depends on the pin. =)

 

[Cicada]

And I agree, the value TO YOU (not just monetary value or trading value) is really what's the most important, because again, it could be a 1 trading/200 wanting pin and if i don't like it, i don't want it, end of story. I've also in a couple cases over-traded a little, but i really wanted the pins in question. would i have done it again? probably. but again, depends on the pin. =)

+1.

it just comes down to what it's worth to any given person. You could have some $300-400 pin, take it to the mom at the grocery store, and she'll just laugh if you told her you'd sell it to her for that much! :lol:

 

[tyleet87]

Agreed. I'm sure each person has a different price for every pin out there. For instance:

This pin:
Pin 36770: Disney Auctions - Jessica Rabbit (Jumbo)

recently sold on eBay for $449!!!! I would never pay that much for a pin in general! But to that person, it was worth that much.

And I would give up multiples for any traders I have for this pin:
Pin 28967: Disney Auctions - Elisabete Gomes (Fantasia 2000 Sprite)

I've heard it's worth $400 or $600 or whatever and I have seen it listed on eBay for $1200, $999, $700 & $650. No way on earth do I think a pin should sell for that much or be willing to pay it.

The most I have ever 'spent' on a pin was $300 worth of traders. I didn't actually shell out the cash. Then I saw the same pin sell on eBay for $180! *bangs head against wall*

 

[gbdb4ever]

Ok....lol....there are way too many questions/scenarios in there for me to begin responding to them, so I'll just say how I do things.

I take all of the following into consideration:
1. How bad do I want their pin(s)?
2. How long have I been looking for their pin(s) with no luck?
3. What is the trades/wants, LE, original cost, etc. of their pin(s)?
4. What is the market value of their pin(s)?
5. Do I think their pin(s) will be easier or harder to find in the future? (ex. new releases....depending on the pin I will wait because I figure the price will come down)

5. How attached am I to my pin(s)?
6. How difficult would it be to replace my pin(s)?
7. What is the trades/wants, LE, original cost, etc. of my pin(s)?
8. What is the market value of my pin(s)?
9. Do I think my pin(s) will be easier or harder to find in the future?


Depending on the answers to those questions, I may or may not be comfortable with the trade. If I want the pin really really bad and can't afford to buy it or can't find one to buy, I will over trade for it. But if I have the money and I see it out on ebay but the person wants triple the value....I tell them to take a hike, buy what I want and sell my pins if I need to make up the money. Other times I will trade a better pin away for a lesser pin just because by the time I went through the effort to sell and buy, after shipping I would be in the same place anyways.

This is not an easy thing to explain or quantify. Every scenario is different and every person is going to treat every scenario differently.

Debby would add one more thing to the list of considerations, and that is how well she knows or gets along with those she is trading with. She can be a pushover and trade much more for the pins she wants to those traders she feels a bond with.

Greg anxiously awaits to see how many new requests to be friends are submitted to gbdb4ever. :anxious:

 

[PinKitten]

oh, if you guys REALLY want to get a kick out of something, look up "dragon framed set" on that evil auction site... LOLOL any takers?? :rofl:

 

[iamdisneydan]

Man! if it was only $9,950.00 I may have bought it.

 

[Tr8dWitMe]

You even have to give the Locals a call out also. If a pin at DSF or DLR is released, and I need it - I have to check if it's worth getting it or buying it.

If a pin costs for an example $10 + CA tax (9.725%). x 10% - 20% Premium and takes $12 of gas for DLR or $5 for DSF for a round trip and the time. I usually only buy one some times 3 but only one of each release. The one(s) I need for my collection. So if I buy that one pin for $15 - $20 it is cost effective for me to do this. I pay less for the pin and the seller makes a small profit but enought to keep them in business with multiple collectors like myself either in Maine, Florida or any states inbetween SOCAL.

In return if I did go to the park or fountain I may get if I feel with 7 years trading that it will be a good trader. But stated earlier in the end the pin may be a trader for a lanyard?

Just a note, just because it's an LE 150, a pin with LE 1000 may be with more in trade or sell value. So when traders in reply emails states mine in rarer, it's in the eye of the beholder. A Tinker Bell framed set LE 100 has no worth to me (unless received and a super low end price) but another pin LE 150 - 300 may put me on credit card shock.

There may be no rhyme or reason but again PRICELESS

 

[gbdb4ever]

Man! if it was only $9,950.00 I may have bought it.

Go for it Dan, the item reads BIN or BO!!! :lol:

 

[gbdb4ever]

oh, if you guys REALLY want to get a kick out of something, look up "dragon framed set" on that evil auction site... LOLOL any takers?? :rofl:

Hey, the real kicker is that shipping is $29.95. You'd think it would be free for that price! LOL

 

[PinKitten]

Hey, the real kicker is that shipping is $29.95. You'd think it would be free for that price! LOL

THAT'S the part that got me too!! LOL i was SO tempted to send them a message saying something like "ok, fine, ask whatever you want for the set (even though it's ridiculous and good luck with that), but seriously? $30 for shipping?!? like you won't already be making a profit????" LOLOLOL

 

[iamdisneydan]

I have personally stated before (In my opinion) that LE size is not the way to value a pin. There are tons of le300 pins at DSF in the bargin bin.
And there are plenty of LE1000 pins that hold greater trade value than a lot of LE500 or even some LE250's. I

I also know what you mean about Gas and the actual cost per pin once you add that all in. What about this. You drive to DSF (Gas Money) and wait in line for 8 hours (or more) to get NBC pins. Well, is your time not worth something? Even at minimum wage you have almost $100.00 in waiting time.

I agree that if you are a one pin kinda person, it may be better just to pay the $15.00 or $20.00 for it and be done with it.

As for the Crazy Dragon Frame. I know it's an LE12, there are none trading and I think116 wanting. What do you think (in your opinion) it should sell for? Lizzie has an LE1 of a Dalmatian Pin. It is an artist proof, given to her and signed by the artist. It is a GOLD version and there was 1 each of a Gold, Silver & Black one. Not that we would ever sell it but a lot of people who are pretty knowledgeable said based on the regular version (an LE250) and the fact there is only one gold one (they did the 250 in silver) they said between $150.00 & $200.00

I know the dragon may be more popular but when I think $2,000.00 per pin basically........... I wish I could hear from one of the 116 wanting and see what they think or would be actually willing to pay.

 

[gbdb4ever]

As for the Crazy Dragon Frame. I know it's an LE12, there are none trading and I think116 wanting. What do you think (in your opinion) it should sell for? Lizzie has an LE1 of a Dalmatian Pin. It is an artist proof, given to her and signed by the artist. It is a GOLD version and there was 1 each of a Gold, Silver & Black one. Not that we would ever sell it but a lot of people who are pretty knowledgeable said based on the regular version (an LE250) and the fact there is only one gold one (they did the 250 in silver) they said between $150.00 & $200.00

I know the dragon may be more popular but when I think $2,000.00 per pin basically........... I wish I could hear from one of the 116 wanting and see what they think or would be actually willing to pay.

I think that $2000 per pin is way too much, even for a LE12. But to a collector who has no option (zero trading), who knows what they would do if they could afford the price.

Agreed. I'm sure each person has a different price for every pin out there. For instance:

This pin:
Pin 36770: Disney Auctions - Jessica Rabbit (Jumbo)

recently sold on eBay for $449!!!! I would never pay that much for a pin in general! But to that person, it was worth that much.

This pin also had zero trading (0/77). I'm sure the individual who bought it thought the price was worth it, especially since there was no other option.

It has been our experience that pins with few traders and many wanters are very difficult to trade for. The law of supply and demand say that they will command a high price or more than most will want to part with in pin value. And that's if you can get a response at all from the few that are trading.

 

[iamdisneydan]

I guess if I was like the Donald or Bill gates or something then it would be no big deal...lol
I know everyone is different but there is just not any pin whatsoever that I would have to have that bad.
It would stay on my "in my dreams list"

(hey, that 4 short post in a row.....Call Ripleys believe it or not...lol)

 

[Rocke01]

KATHUNK.....*falls over and hits the floor then gets up rubbing head. You GOTTA STOP that Dan... I can't take the abuse!...LOL