Venting .... just venting .....

[simonandwendy626]

I can see this argument from both sides

Firstly
It is frustrating when people offer open edition pins for your low numbered LE's however I think a little bit of realism needs to be had. I doubt anyone on this or any other forum would not hesitate to trade if they are offered the trade in reverse i.e offered an LE for a open edition, and of course we always point out to the other traders when these offers come along. For me Its all about how much you want a pin. And quite often I will just select all the pins on the TA as I have made some amazing trades.If you don't want to trade then simply say no thanks

Secondly
We all know the system if you don't like it don't use it! Gloomy I could not agree more. I have been trading since 2002, for me it is not the offers that are wrong it is people who are extremely rude who offer trades, you accept but then you don't hear anything.

Thirdly
Whats the alternative to the TA, without it many of us would never of traded, Most of us trade with people all over the world, Image only trading with people who live next door!!!! Pin trading is meant to be fun

God. I dont think Ive said so much for years!

 

[SyriusLionwing]

Hi guys, heres my two cents on this:

As a newbie I have sent out what I realise NOW were bad trades, but at the time I didn't know they were bad trades. Until I came here really I didn't understand the whole Limited versus core versus HMs..etc.. I have had a few people be VERY helpful and enlighten me on a lot of things that before were rather baffling for me!

I always put a note on when I send out a TA - something like please look at my traders I am willing to do a multiple trade.

I still don't really get any replies and the biggest upset for me was emailing someone directly, getting a reply of no, then I offered to buy a pin of equal value (the pin I want won't show up on the bay!!!!) and I didn't get a reply back after that.

I understand about the frustration of being offered something really rubbish but it may just be that they are new (like me!) or un-aware, maybe they don't have this awesome community on their browser favourites. If I ever feel really frustrated about trading I walk away, get a glass of milk and the nearest cookie and come back so I can reply no thanks.

I'm not defending those who are obviously trying to rip you off, but definitely consider they may be new or just a bit silly, getting too upset about it will just give you a head ache. Remember pin trading is supposed to be fun <3!

Laura (One of them silly Newbies!)

 

[Vala]

I can see this argument from both sides

Firstly
It is frustrating when people offer open edition pins for your low numbered LE's however I think a little bit of realism needs to be had. I doubt anyone on this or any other forum would not hesitate to trade if they are offered the trade in reverse i.e offered an LE for a open edition, and of course we always point out to the other traders when these offers come along. For me Its all about how much you want a pin. And quite often I will just select all the pins on the TA as I have made some amazing trades.If you don't want to trade then simply say no thanks

I may be outing myself as the biggest idiot here, but yes, if I got a trade request that was insanely in my favor I always reply something like: "I would love to have this pin. But are you realizing that this trade is very much in my favor? If you didn't send this trade intentional, that's okay. Let me know if I can add something from my side to make this more fair for you. If you don't want to do this anymore that's fine."

And in the maybe 15 times that happened I got one response back saying that they realized the offer was high, but they really wanted to have this pin and it was okay for them if it was okay for me. The other traders? Never even got back to me saying "oops, I just selected everything I could get and didn't pay attention. Sorry!" or something like that.

Like Dyma has said: for me it's about Karma. I would never want to profit from an unsuspecting trader.

I've made it a long standing habit to at least look at the other party's traders and make a counter offer, if possible, for the pin they want. I view the TA as a tool to begin negotiations. It has been repeatedly stated that we all view our pins with different value systems. I've also have had parties offer me LEs for my HMs; I always try to counter offer with the suggestion of something that is more fair to them and/or ask them to look at my traders to find something more equitable. Remember: Pin Karma - what ya' send around, comes back at ya' 10-fold.

That was the way I used to do things. But then I got a reply to a counteroffer which made me change my point of view. The first offer was LE 1000 current WDW pin for an older Paris Pin trading Event pin. I counteroffered (they had older more equal value stuff I was interested in) and got that reply: "Oh that's alright. I was just fishing. Maybe someone will bite." So basically they were looking for a newbie who would possibly fall for their ploy. Needless to say that this e-mail address is blocked on my account now.

-Person making the TA request has a pin he wants to trade off

-He opens up then page for that pin, clicks "What can I get for trading this pin?" and clicks everything from the list of Wanted pins that appears

-Some of the offers he sends wind up being reasonable, others wind up being ridiculous

And what's the problem to insert step 3 here? "Check if your offers are reasonable?"

I just got a trade offer through TA ten minutes ago, from a trader who's around longer than me and should know better. Current HM for my D23 Alice. Another trader has a stunning 5 matches to my wants. 3 HMs, 1 current LE1000 which has only 2 more wanting than trading, 1 LE150. They keep asking for Paris Event or PTN pins, and we're talking about the good ones here. Are they offering the LE150? No, of course not!

I'm getting the impression more and more that some traders on purpose select the worst pin they have from your wants and offer it. Like in the story above, after all someone may fall for it!

 

[Cursor]

Sigh, no I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out that in the present Pinpics/Disney system, these disappointments and now 'anger' happen because the only option is to indicate which pins you want to trade. There is no option to trade for LEs or whatever you expect to get in return. It is not 'my' system, it is the one in place now. Getting mad at me makes me realise that traders haven't figured this out already.

If you are at a stage of collecting where you are putting high end or rarer pins in the trades will get you the 'bad' trades requests because that is how the current system is, I'm losing ways of explaining this - that, in this system all pins are considered the same value. The rarer/ more valuable your pin the bigger the anger will be when you receive a request with a base price pin. In a previous post of mine, I hoped to arrange the pins as of desirability or value but it wasn't workable. Feel free to make a better suggestion.

If you think your trading pin has a high value I would suggest not having it there, as I suggested earlier because this system doesn't support that way of trading.

Perhaps there could be another option in the TA of 'open to negotiation', meaning that you want their trading pin and could come to some arrangement - multiple pins etc.

Again, it's not my system it is the current one. Hope this explains my thinking and posts.

 

[Merryweather]

Well, once I have *KNOWINGLY* offered a HTF LE250 for a HTF LE500 from my wants list to someone I already knew from this board.

The said person pointed out that the trade would not be in my favor, and I replied that I already knew that. I really appreciated the honesty and that person went up a notch in my trading partner list of course.

And just this morning, I have agreed to another trade that looks a bit off, but not to me: I am giving LE 250 and the other trader is giving LE 500. As Abyssinian pointed out, not all pins are created equal. In some cases, if it is an older and HTF pin, I am happy to give a lower LE. I for one, believe DA pins are far better and more sought after than most (not all) ds.com pins.

And I agree that the TA system is not perfect software-wise. But we, as traders, are in charge of the choices we make. A little common sense and courtesy would go a long way instead of just fishing.

Cursor: When a car dealer advertises that they take trade-ins and you want to buy a new car, you do not go to the dealer, and expect to trade your beat up 10 yr old Ford in for a brand new Mercedes with no extra payments. They would toss you out on to the street in no time. Same thing with pins. Just because we hide behind user/screen names (and in a fairly small community) should not mean we should e-mail around "fishing".

Gloomy I distinctly remember that you had included a note asking me to look at your other traders. That is why instead of impulsively responding "no", I have stopped an looked. That lead me to find a pin my kiddo wanted and as I said, I have not much feelings for Jessica. But ask me for a Sleeping Beauty/Ariel/Thumper pin and see my claws come out

So, although the TA system is not perfect, it is up to us to use it in a fair way.

 

[suzanneb]

I also get some VERY unbalanced offers. There are people sometimes "blindly" checking boxes for very lopsided trades in TA. It is NOT the TA's fault that some people check boxes for these weird offers. I simply say, no thank you.

 

[Tabbikat2219]

Cursor I absolutely cannot disagree with you more. I list ALL of my pins that I want to trade regardless of value, LE size etc. By listing them it tells people I am open to trading them. AGAIN I disagree with your whole theory of not putting them in how in the world will the other collectors know what you have to trade? THEY WONT. If they dont know then how in the hell am I suppose to get any of my high end LE Grails? I wouldnt have a clue as per your instructions it would show no one had them for trade. THE WHOLE POINT is people should use their brain when using the TA when you want a pin then choose pins of yours that are somewhat close in le size and value. If people used their brains we all wouldnt get the annoying ridiculous request we get. The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT to not list your pins. again I have to wonder how long you have been trading. YES it is annoying to get a request for one of my high end le 100 pins for lets say a hidden mickey. I then take the time to tell the person their offer is WAY out of the ballpark and why. Most have appreciated the info as the were new traders basically just going on pictures of what they like. My jaw just dropped when you said not to list them thats a stupid thing to do.

 

[destiny117]

Hi Cursor,

Pinpics was not intended to be a pin value source, but a pin information source and a place for traders to find people that will trade with them. Of course, it is not perfect, because new traders do not understand how pin values work. I get ridiculous offers sometimes, and equally fair offers other times. If you do not communicate with other traders, then you will never have a trade.

I have my high end pins on my list and end up with equally high end pins many times, so it does work when the two traders understand and agree on the value of a pin. For that, you have to do your homework.

 

[MaeBlum08]

Yes, the TA is imperfect, but that is not the problem here. The problem is people refusing to learn or accept that pins are not all created equal and there are different values. Using "it matched up in the TA" as an excuse or a reason as to why someone should trade with you is not right.

It is not us misunderstanding the TA system's imperfections or the TA system in general, but a dislike of the attitude about it that you're presenting. All new people send out requests like these until they learn, but it is the people who continue to send them out and blame it on the TA/technology instead of doing their homework on values that get people upset.

 

[erudolf]

Sigh, no I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out that in the present Pinpics/Disney system, these disappointments and now 'anger' happen because the only option is to indicate which pins you want to trade. There is no option to trade for LEs or whatever you expect to get in return. It is not 'my' system, it is the one in place now. Getting mad at me makes me realise that traders haven't figured this out already.

If you are at a stage of collecting where you are putting high end or rarer pins in the trades will get you the 'bad' trades requests because that is how the current system is, I'm losing ways of explaining this - that, in this system all pins are considered the same value. The rarer/ more valuable your pin the bigger the anger will be when you receive a request with a base price pin. In a previous post of mine, I hoped to arrange the pins as of desirability or value but it wasn't workable. Feel free to make a better suggestion.

If you think your trading pin has a high value I would suggest not having it there, as I suggested earlier because this system doesn't support that way of trading.

Perhaps there could be another option in the TA of 'open to negotiation', meaning that you want their trading pin and could come to some arrangement - multiple pins etc.

Again, it's not my system it is the current one. Hope this explains my thinking and posts.

I think you are preaching to the choir here. Most of us are fully aware of the issues with the system. This very same topic has been discussed many many many mind-numbing times. I agree, the system is flawed and should probably be updated. But there IS another option other than what you listed. The users can choose to approach the TA intelligently and with an open mind. The TA wording is out of date.....so stop reading it and taking it literally. If we change the way we think about the TA then we wouldn't be hashing this topic out every three months. Think of the TA as a pin trading phone book. It is finding the people that have what you want and helping you get into contact with them. It is not doing all the work for you because it isn't robust enough to do that and take values into consideration.

I agree, bad trade offers will come in if you put your good pins out there. You've just got to roll with it. No big deal. If I really start to get annoyed by the requests I don't take my pin off my traders list.....I take the pin they are offering off my wants list. Chances are I probably don't want it all that bad anyways if I'm not biting.

I also get some VERY unbalanced offers. There are people sometimes "blindly" checking boxes for very lopsided trades in TA. It is NOT the TA's fault that some people check boxes for these weird offers. I simply say, no thank you.

Here, I'd say it is absolutley the TA's fault. If someone is just trying to get in touch with someone else so that they can talk to them, what else are they supposed to do? If it is a difficult to find pin then I'm going to check everything, even if it is a hidden mickey, in hopes that they will read my comment and actually take the time to look at my traders and will see something they like.

More than the TA not being flexible, I think a bigger part of the problem is 1) People sitting out there with traders and no intention of trading and 2) People are just flat out lazy. They expect requests to just roll in and be perfectly matched up. A lot of people don't like to get their hands dirty and actually negotiate. If that's the case, well, ok then.....but I'm not really sure why they chose pin trading as a hobby then because negotiating is the bread and butter of trading. People just have unrealistic expectations of the system as well as others sometimes...

 

[Gloomy]

And what's the problem to insert step 3 here? "Check if your offers are reasonable?"

The problem with that step, is that if I'm doing a full round of trade blasts, I'm literally going through over a hundred different pins on my Trades, and then checking off anywhere between 10 to 150+ pins I'd be willing to take for each. This process takes me upwards of four hours. If I were to vet every individual offer to make sure it was reasonable, the process would take at least twelve to sixteen hours. There's no way I would have the time to do that.

I do include a message inviting discussion about the trade, which often results in me doing a completely different trade for pins I didn't even offer the individual, often when the specific TA request itself happened to be unreasonable. I do the same thing: when I get a lame TA request, I either ignore it so as to not fill the sender's inbox with a useless "no thanks" message, or see it as an invitation for a dialogue and check that person's traders to start a discussion. This seems more constructive than getting frustrated over the inevitable bad TA requests that being on Pinpics generates.

-JD

Gloomy I distinctly remember that you had included a note asking me to look at your other traders. That is why instead of impulsively responding "no", I have stopped an looked. That lead me to find a pin my kiddo wanted and as I said, I have not much feelings for Jessica. But ask me for a Sleeping Beauty/Ariel/Thumper pin and see my claws come out

Haha, yeah, I was a bit wiped when I wrote my earlier post, and forgot to note that I do include a message inviting discussion with about 95% of my trade blasts. I'm glad that made the difference in our trade. Sometimes it's tough to tell how effective those 60 characters can be. Thanks again for the trade!

-JD

 

[Abyssinian28]

Sigh, no I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out that in the present Pinpics/Disney system, these disappointments and now 'anger' happen because the only option is to indicate which pins you want to trade.

Well, that wasn't exactly what you were doing- you mentioned the flaws in the system *briefly*, but mostly, it came off like you were trying to tell us that we were doing it wrong.

If your entire point had been in the flaws in the TA, I would have agreed with you, actually. I've stated before that a simple ranking system (where we label our own pins how we see them in simple categories like "high, medium, or low") would be a wonderful addition. But I know the Pinpics folks have their hands full already, and as nice as some new features would be, this isn't their job, just a hobby.

But I digress...

Yes, the TA is imperfect, but that is not the problem here. The problem is people refusing to learn or accept that pins are not all created equal and there are different values. Using "it matched up in the TA" as an excuse or a reason as to why someone should trade with you is not right.

It is not us misunderstanding the TA system's imperfections or the TA system in general, but a dislike of the attitude about it that you're presenting. All new people send out requests like these until they learn, but it is the people who continue to send them out and blame it on the TA/technology instead of doing their homework on values that get people upset.

+9,000

That sums it up quite nicely.

Fine tuning a trade can be difficult sometimes, because values are tricky things...but we should at least be trying to get it in the general ballpark, which is Merryweather's whole point for this thread.

 

[erudolf]

The problem with that step, is that if I'm doing a full round of trade blasts, I'm literally going through over a hundred different pins on my Trades, and then checking off anywhere between 10 to 150+ pins I'd be willing to take for each. This process takes me upwards of four hours. If I were to vet every individual offer to make sure it was reasonable, the process would take at least twelve to sixteen hours. There's no way I would have the time to do that.

I do include a message inviting discussion about the trade, which often results in me doing a completely different trade for pins I didn't even offer the individual, often when the specific TA request itself happened to be unreasonable. I do the same thing: when I get a lame TA request, I either ignore it so as to not fill the sender's inbox with a useless "no thanks" message, or see it as an invitation for a dialogue and check that person's traders to start a discussion. This seems more constructive than getting frustrated over the inevitable bad TA requests that being on Pinpics generates.

-JD

I absolutely agree. Editing the TA can take way too much time. And often, I'll start setting up requests and then get distracted and forget to go back an edit them. I wouldn't mind spending the time to edit requests if it was productive, but it absolutely is not. We all know that the response rate on Pinpics is very very low. So why would I want to spend hours editing requests to people that are only 10% likely to respond? Pointless. I'd rather spend a couple of minutes slapping a TA together and then spend my time having a real discussion with those who are actually interested in trading. Talking to a person directly to find out what they really want is far more productive than playing guessing games with the TA and walking on egg shells hoping that they don't get offended by what is offered.

 

[Abyssinian28]

If I really start to get annoyed by the requests I don't take my pin off my traders list.....I take the pin they are offering off my wants list. Chances are I probably don't want it all that bad anyways if I'm not biting.

::nod:: I do this, too. I have a separate little place for pins I'm interested in that are higher edition sizes because I got tired of the offers for my DA LE 100s for those pins.

More than the TA not being flexible, I think a bigger part of the problem is 1) People sitting out there with traders and no intention of trading and 2) People are just flat out lazy. They expect requests to just roll in and be perfectly matched up. A lot of people don't like to get their hands dirty and actually negotiate. If that's the case, well, ok then.....but I'm not really sure why they chose pin trading as a hobby then because negotiating is the bread and butter of trading. People just have unrealistic expectations of the system as well as others sometimes...

I'll add one more to these: people who are willing to trade, but they want to trade-up. They don't want that equal trade, they want to GAIN. Not quite a shark in the sense that they don't prey on newbies and lack of knowledge, they're the ones I mostly label hostage-holders...they want a ransom because they know people want the pin, and they figure someone will eventually cave. I call the eBay dealers that put those huge BIT prices on Grails the same thing. Unfortunately, I think my remaining Wants are generally held by these types...

Some of the ones that don't have the intention to trade...I think sometimes they're frozen by that whole "My pin is so good, is this trade the right one?" thing. They think, "What if it goes up in value even more?", and they're scared to let it go...even for things they'd like to have. I had a pin like this in the past, and I wasn't sure what to do with it. It was a relief to finally be rid of it, actually.

 

[Abyssinian28]

We all know that the response rate on Pinpics is very very low.

...you know, I've often wondered why this is. It was much, much more active when I joined, even for things like LE 100s. I can't see any reason why the lower-level stuff should have slowed down at all. And I don't mean the "no, thanks" responses...I never got a lot of those anyway, and I don't really want them. I meant discussions that work towards trades, or just plan "yes" responses.

...which reminds me, now that I have some free time, I do have some stuff to reply to...::sheepish grin::

 

[erudolf]

...you know, I've often wondered why this is. It was much, much more active when I joined, even for things like LE 100s. I can't see any reason why the lower-level stuff should have slowed down at all. And I don't mean the "no, thanks" responses...I never got a lot of those anyway, and I don't really want them. I meant discussions that work towards trades, or just plan "yes" responses.

...which reminds me, now that I have some free time, I do have some stuff to reply to...::sheepish grin::

Oh geeze....who knows? It could be a ton of different things. Here are some possible contributors:

1) The active pin community isn't as big as it used to be. Just on here, every few months someone makes the grand announcement that they are leaving pin trading (some of which end up coming back). There could be a lot of reasons for this too, but I think things really slowed when Disney Auctions went away. And now with Disney Store pins not being all that great....it is difficult to get excited about new pins.

2) A lot of older traders have reached their capacity. They've found most of their wants and are now down the the really tough stuff. And since they are all "caught up", it is easier to just buy their new wants because it isn't as cumbersome financially. Plus, they may not be adding newer wants because they are cutting themselves off. My magic barrier was right around 2,000 pins. Once I hit that I pulled back and tried to decided what I really wanted to maintain and what could go.

3) People just can't aford it. Pins are a luxury and with bad economic times they are probably the first thing to go. You can't really be wasting money on postage for trading when you are having a hard time filling your gas tank.

4) People have now seen many value cycles of pins and are not dealing in the lower end ones. I've done this. If I think that a series (usually park series) isn't going to move well then I'm not going to be anxious to trade for it. I'm going to wait until they show up on ebay for cheaper. Look at several of the recent Pin of the Month series. They flopped. They were $15 pins and you can get them now for $10 or less. Why trade for a pin when you can probably just get it cheaper off of ebay? Or, unless you absolutely love it, why get it at all if you think the value will decrease?

5) Market prices are down, people may be holding out in hopes of a rebound. Before the prices this their highest levels, people were probably more willing to trade. Then they saw pins they had traded away going for $300. Then they didn't want to let anything go. And now, those pins can't even bring half the top price and they are still clinging to the notion that they have a $300 pin.

6) There have been sooooo many pins released. When looking at the lower level pins it is hard to even figure out what you want anymore. There are just too many to choose from it seems....everyone is spread thin across all pins.


I don't know....I'm sure it is a combination of many many things.

 

[Abyssinian28]

Well, that pretty much sums it up, huh? LOL!

 

[erudolf]

Well, that pretty much sums it up, huh? LOL!

Nope, I just thought of another one! :lol:

7) Pins are rooted in collections. A pin can only trade hands so many times before it is bound to stick to someone's collection. The more and more time goes on, the more rare pins will be removed from circulation. And they won't re-enter the trading pool until someone decideds it is time to move on. Like my Stitches...those puppies aren't going to see the light of day (trade-wise) for a very very long time.

 

[breagirl]

First, I have to admit, I haven't read this entire thread. We've been without power for 8 hours due to storms last night and I'm bored, so I hopped on here for a minute. It might be a bit before I get to read responses, but here goes:

I don't think I know what I am doing when it comes to making offers on pinpics. I saw someone put you open the pin and check all the boxes that apply. That's what I do and I think after years of trading, I'm suddenly realizing I've unintentionally probably hacked a lot of people off because it looks like I am making lopsided trade requests (even though I typically put a note saying I will trade multiple pins, etc.) Can someone please give me a quick rundown of what I should be doing instead and how in the world do I see what it is actually sending to people? I know this sounds ignorant, but I think if I am making this mistake, I bet other traders are as well. What I've been doing has obviously worked as I've made lots of great trades over the last couple of years, but now I'm also wondering if my name is floating around on a bad trader list because I've unknowingly made offers that seemed ridiculously lopsided. HELP!

 

[erudolf]

Once you have set up your requests you can go and look at them them and edit them if you wish. Go to My Pinpics and then Click here to view your current pending trade requests.

 

[erudolf]

...but now I'm also wondering if my name is floating around on a bad trader list because I've unknowingly made offers that seemed ridiculously lopsided. HELP!

Exactly the reason I don't like the idea of that "bad trader" list. Who is to say that the person that put a name on there isn't the "bad trader" in the circumstance involved. Warning people of a repetitive scammer is one thing, but putting people on there because you had one bad experience or things just didn't work out? Wrong. Whoever the "keeper" of this list is better be making darn sure they are finding out the ENTIRE story from both sides before putting someone on there. Just my opinion on "The List" which I have never seen....nor do I want to.

 

[Merryweather]

Is there a bad trader list? About 2 years ago, when I was starting out, I would have easily topped it as I was clueless too.

I am sure I still have my judgement off every now and then, if/when I go by the price *I have paid* for a certain pin. And I have been fleeced by several Ebay sellers which led me to think that a certain pin has a high value.

Nope, I did not mean to start a list or anything, as the title says ... just venting.

And to add to the reasons in Erica's list of why trades slow down:

8. Sometimes people just get soured from the hobby. They might not dispose of their collection and traders, but just need a break - like i did for 6 months due to some bad experiences.

 

[simonandwendy626]

I don't think a bad trader list is the way forward, I agree with Erudolf it would be open to abuse, whats to say some one who does not answer request is not a bad trader, or someone who sends requests that you agree to, then they back out is not a bad trader, or someone who sends requests to more than one person then selects 1 person over another is not a bad trader.

It will cause so many problems for Pin Pics I could see them pulling the plug all together...and no one wants that

I stand by what I said earlier, Pin trading is meant to be fun

 

[suzanneb]

I still think folks shouldn't offer hidden mickey's for LOW LE's. I can see the other point of view, but I dont think it is fair to state that people don't want to trade if they decline unbalanced offers & unfortunately can't find other options from the offerers list

 

[Tabbikat2219]

Shouldnt a "Bad Trader List" mean what it says a bad TRADER not a Bad Offerer? lol I mean my goodness who would want to keep a list of people who make bad offers it would be a mile long?