"Damaged"/"bad scene" PODMs - "fixed"

[erudolf]

My only concern with this would be if someone sold an altered pin, and labeled it as such, that does not prevent the buyer from then trying to pass it off as authentic. It would not be the original creator's fault for someone else's dishonesty, but I feel as if it could cause some potential problems! In my personal opinion, I think that this kind of thing would have to be for personal collections only.

Just playing Devil's advocate here - do you also believe that custom vinylmations and fantasy pins should be for personal collections only? If not, why?

 

[Psycho Pixie]

"Value is in the eye of the beholder."

yup it sure is. And the majority of pin collectors will see the "value" of an altered pin the same way they see Fantasy, and damaged pins. authentic disney means not altered, not permanantly damaged and not fake/fantasy/counterfeit/scrap.

Not gonna discuss it further. My point is made, and your point is made.

 

[ElysionsPrincess]

Just playing Devil's advocate here - do you also believe that custom vinylmations and fantasy pins should be for personal collections only? If not, why?

To be totally honest, I'm not too familiar with fantasy pins and how they float on the market, so unfortunately I won't be able to address that part of your question! I'm sorry!

And on the subject of Vinylmations, I think that generally, most collectors know of the exact characters/figures in a line. So when they see something custom, they can make the assumption that it is such. Unfortunately there is always the possibility of a seller trying to pass a custom off as an original product though, no matter the subject. They could try to claim it was a "prototype" or something ludicrous if their craftsmanship was good enough. The same principal applies to dolls (something that I collect adamantly). When the Designer Princess dolls were first hitting the market, a lot of people tried to make replicas or customs, and that confused a lot of people when they didn't use the phrases "OOAK" or "Custom". I heard a story of a family member buying a girl a "Designer Ariel Doll" from eBay, only to end up with one of the basic dolls from the store in a poorly-made custom dress.

It truly is a case by case basis, and it all depends on the buyer's personal knowledge of what they are trying to purchase. Therefore, as I said, it wouldn't be the original seller's fault if a buyer tried to resell a custom piece as authentic. All the seller can do is make sure they list it with the proper terms to prevent accidental purchase, but that unfortunately cannot prevent intentional purchase for deceiving resale from some buyers. I hope that I'm making some sense! It's like, 2:30 A.M. here! Lol.

 

[erudolf]

"Value is in the eye of the beholder."

yup it sure is. And the majority of pin collectors will see the "value" of an altered pin the same way they see Fantasy, and damaged pins. authentic disney means not altered, not permanantly damaged and not fake/fantasy/counterfeit/scrap.

Not gonna discuss it further. My point is made, and your point is made.

Ok...well, seeing that I'm doing this for myself, how the "majority of pin collectors" value it is meaningless to me. And if that is how it shakes out then there really isn't a threat of these invading the market, is there?

And just to remind everyone, I plan to put video behing the pin, not a different cel, so I'm pretty sure there is no threat of them being mistaken for the pin as sold by Disney.

 

[Dalisair]

There was a guy at the Mickey's Circus pin event who had taken the film cel out of a 101 Dalmatians PODM and replaced it with a battery operated micro video player. He then recorded a 10 minute loop from the film onto a micro SD card and had it playing throughout the event. It was really cool to see. Perhaps this is what that individual or some of the people who saw it are looking to do with these damaged cels.

OK now THAT I heartily endorse. That is AMAZING and inventive. I imagine soon Disney will steal that idea... lol

I actually think the idea of putting in a different cell is actually pretty cool if it's for collection purposes only. Let's face it we all have a dream PODM and sometimes it's something that hasn't been made. All of my dream PODM cells were of things they unfortunately didn't make (except for Mulan). If someone try's to replace the cell and make a profit off of it is pretty shady.

See, that is what I am worried about. People being shady. Now, if I had access to a film print, a crappy BatB PODM and the means, yeah, I'd make my GF her dream scent (Belle with the Wolves) But I would include a note on the back of the card saying it was altered. Or etch something on the back of the pin.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

So... I often see people asking for damaged or unwanted PODM pins... and I have to wonder... what are they doing with them? Are they "fixing" them by taking a cell and putting it in there? If so, doesn't that now make it a counterfeit?

In my mind, yes, it does. It's no longer an authentic pin since you changed what was in it. If you are keeping it with no intention on ever letting it out into the public, and have records of what you did so after your death it's not passed off as authentic, I guess that might be ok. But otherwise, I think it's kinda shady.

What are your thoughts on this fellow traders?

The OP above, never says any names, clearly states, "people asking" which implies multiple people. It also ONLY asks about Film Cels..... Not video.

Ok - since this is somehow a topic and I'm a person looking for damaged ones I'll respond.

I want to do exactly what gbdb4ever described. That is why I only want damaged ones. I don't want to destroy a perfectly good pin. I happen to love these pins and would feel way too guilty tearing one apart if there was nothing wrong with it.

You state clearly "I want to do exactly what GBDB4ever described." which is NOT what is being asked in this post.

Ok...well, seeing that I'm doing this for myself, how the "majority of pin collectors" value it is meaningless to me. And if that is how it shakes out then there really isn't a threat of these invading the market, is there?

And just to remind everyone, I plan to put video behing the pin, not a different cel, so I'm pretty sure there is no threat of them being mistaken for the pin as sold by Disney.

The discussion is about Film Cel's, not video. And it asks for opinions of fellow pin traders, How the "majority of pin traders feel" i relevent to the topic of the OP.

What you do with your PODM regarding video is aaaalllll you. Have fun.

My top concern, and the top concern of others on this thread that are still focused on Film cel, not video, is plain and simple... How will it effect that market.

 

[Dalisair]

Ok - since this is somehow a topic and I'm a person looking for damaged ones I'll respond.

I want to do exactly what gbdb4ever described. That is why I only want damaged ones. I don't want to destroy a perfectly good pin. I happen to love these pins and would feel way too guilty tearing one apart if there was nothing wrong with it.

I really find it comical that this is even being questioned considering that in the past people have flat out said "send me your scrappers for a good cause" and nooooobody questions that. Not at all saying that those people weren't doing what they said with them, but how about some consistency?

Seeing that the running theme here as of late has been "It is your pin, you can do whatever you want with it/charge whatever you want for it" I would think that same thinking would extend to this. I'm doing this for my own personal collection, but even if I wanted to sell it one day, whose business is it but mine? Does anybody honestly believe someone would try to pass off a video version as straight from Disney? Come on. IF it were sold (which again, is not why I'm doing this) it would be advertised for what it is. Look at it this way...if you drop a new transmission into you car, is your car now "counterfeit". No. And calling this counterfeiting is not true at all. I'm not replicating or reproducing anything. I'm simply repurposing.

And in the future, I'd kindly ask that if you have a question like this, ask the source. Publicly asking a group of people what someone else's intentions are isn't exactly appropriate because all you are going to get is speculation and start rumors.

This WASN'T directed at you personally, I have seen quite a few and wondered about it. I've seen some SHADY people asking in the parks as well (you know, the same ones who manage to get 10 pins with one wristband... those people who badmouth those who want it for their collections saying that they don't know what to do with the pin, that they need to be selling them, not putting them in books or boxes...).

I've not seen the threads about scrappers, but I would question those as well. Scrappers could be used for fun things like the pin frames or the like. I'd always be worried the scrappers would come back into the parks.

I've never said "do/charge" whatever. I think there are common sense limits.

If you are buying them and putting in new frames and passing that off, well that IS counterfeiting. Comparing that to a car isn't the same thing. If you replace a transmission in a car, you pretty much have to tell the buyer you replaced it, and when and with what kind (rebuild, new, off market, etc). I'd think it was the same with these pins. If you try to pass it off as authentic, that is shady and wrong. It's NOT authentic and if you tried to actually pass it off as such, that WOULD make it a counterfeit. To so as such would really imply a lack of morals that is quite frankly mind boggling.

Now, as I said a few minutes ago before seeing your pretty defensive response, I FULLY endorse doing this for innovating things like the moving picture. That is a really neat idea. I am TOTALLY for that and would love to see that. Heck, if you do it, show it to Disney and tell them how. It's an amazing idea!

On another note, I do know some are collecting "bad" scenes for the comedy of it. I sometimes will trade for an odd pin just because it is quite frankly... well... odd. Unique. And if you could get a whole collection of PODM butts, now THAT would be incredibly funny.

Now, getting to the last sentence - Since this wasn't directed at you and was a broader question, I felt no need to ask you if I could post this question. Honestly, I didn't see WHO was asking for bad pins besides Milky.

 

[Dalisair]

So as long as no one's trying to pass it off as coming from Disney, then why not let collectors put their own creative spin on things, and share it with those interested?

See, that is where my hangup is. If they try to pass it off as coming from Disney. That then makes it counterfeit. If you say it is custom or altered, sell that thing for 4 (or more) times the amount for your effort. ESPECIALLY for those electronic ones. That sounds super cool. Heck, I said if I could get a BatB PODM and a film print, I'd create a custom Belle and Wolves for my GF. But you bet I'd etch the back with my name and date.

 

[dancecats]

Just a GENERAL reminder: please keep the topic of conversation geared towards the scope of the opening post. The subject of the opening post is damaged/fixed PODMs; not only does it not single or ask to single anybody out, making it personal just isn't appropriate. You can give your opinions on this subject without making this a personal issue or having this deteriorate into petty attacks and childish bickering ... I think?

 

[Dalisair]

So what if they do? They still aren't fake or counterfeit. Like others said, they are custom. Now, if someone misrepresents it, that's a different discussion.

What worries me is that you don't see the problem with passing off an altered/custom as Disney authentic, or that seems to me to be what you are implying.

There is nothing wrong with altering them, but there is a LOT of area on the back to mark that it is custom as a metal etch. I have nothing against altering the pin. I have EVERYTHING against altering it then trying to pass it off as made by Disney.

 

[Dalisair]

Ok...well, seeing that I'm doing this for myself, how the "majority of pin collectors" value it is meaningless to me. And if that is how it shakes out then there really isn't a threat of these invading the market, is there?

And just to remind everyone, I plan to put video behing the pin, not a different cel, so I'm pretty sure there is no threat of them being mistaken for the pin as sold by Disney.

And again, that is AWESOMESAUCE. Can you share the way you are doing this? (on another thread)

Back to my original worry, how do you feel about someone replacing the frame (I keep seeing them called cells (I even said it on the OP), which are larger animations that movies are made from, these are frames from a film print, a bit different) and trying to pass it off as Disney authentic? I'm not even thinking of them adding new scenes into the mix (which would be pretty obvious), but what if, for example, someone was getting damaged Tangled pins and putting in the scene where all 4 mains were in it like the hair scene before the braiding? (I think that is the most valued, right?) So suddenly, rather than 20 of these existing on the market there are now 50? (I am pulling those numbers out of the air, I have no clue how many of any given scene there are)

 

[BellesEnchantedRose]

What worries me is that you don't see the problem with passing off an altered/custom as Disney authentic, or that seems to me to be what you are implying.

There is nothing wrong with altering them, but there is a LOT of area on the back to mark that it is custom as a metal etch. I have nothing against altering the pin. I have EVERYTHING against altering it then trying to pass it off as made by Disney.

He never said he would pass it off as authentic, he said he would title them as customized. Which implies pretty obviously that it is an altered pin that someone could not get from disney.

 

[SyriusLionwing]

I'm sorry but omg what a brilliant idea! For my personal collection I would happily buy a rubbish podm and change the scene. I would LOVE a bambi with thumper and miss bunny in it! Honestly why has no one thought of doing this before? And no I would not be selli it it would be for my personal collection, I love custom things and in the past I have seen people improve pins by using Swarovski crystals, again a frikken brilliant idea if the pin has lost a gem or if you think, yeah that could do with a gem there. Customising pins for your own personal use is just fun and makes your collection unique, if it's or your own personal gain I don't think anyone has the right to shout at you about it. Oh and I would totally pay someone to custom a podm for me if I didn't think I could do it myself.

I would love to see that moving movie one! I bet that is a gem of an idea. I love how creative the pin trading community is!

 

[ryanfury]

No one is going to see a video podm and think it is authentic. I think we are just arguing semantics on that. Did anyone try to say it is ok to swap out the scene and then sell it? That would be very wrong.

 

[PrincessxJasmine89]

I'm sorry but omg what a brilliant idea! For my personal collection I would happily buy a rubbish podm and change the scene. I would LOVE a bambi with thumper and miss bunny in it! Honestly why has no one thought of doing this before? And no I would not be selli it it would be for my personal collection, I love custom things and in the past I have seen people improve pins by using Swarovski crystals, again a frikken brilliant idea if the pin has lost a gem or if you think, yeah that could do with a gem there. Customising pins for your own personal use is just fun and makes your collection unique, if it's or your own personal gain I don't think anyone has the right to shout at you about it. Oh and I would totally pay someone to custom a podm for me if I didn't think I could do it myself.

I would love to see that moving movie one! I bet that is a gem of an idea. I love how creative the pin trading community is!

+1 for everything here, I LOVE how creative Disney fans are in general! I probably don't even have the means to acquire a bad PODM, but I would totally be up for altering it and keeping it out of the circuit (aka in my collection, like, FOREVER) with a new cel (that can't be mistaken for an existing cel) or a video clip... I've also fixed/altered a lot of Disney stuff with crystals and other things... I added some missing gems onto my LE Cinderella doll's skirt, and when my crystal pavé Jasmine grail pin arrived with a missing crystal, I took it to the jewellers and got it replaced (same diameter, same colour, same cut, same everything)... surely that isn't counterfeiting? :lol: I do however think it's a bad idea to replace cels with other cels that DO exist in PODMs and then trade it on, because those can be mistaken... nobody in their right mind is going to think a video chipped PODM is real... but it sure is a brilliant idea!

Question to those who've seen the video PODMs: did it have sound? I wonder how sound can be incorporated...

 

[KT07]

side note... Its ok to give the scrappers to the members that use them for kids or art stuff.

Just cut off the post and or put a black x on the back. Dont get all scared and let that stop u from putting a smile on a kids face. Thank you

 

[starry_solo]

Wow, this thread has gotten long. LOL.

 

[erudolf]

Good grief.

For those who don't know me, I'm not as much deffensive as I am blunt and mildly annoyed.

The OP asked what people were doing with these pins. THAT was the topic. It then hypothosized that it was replacing the cell, which in my case was wrong, so I spoke up and thus far have been the only one looking for these to do so.

You have got to understand that people don't know what it is you do at the park everyday and what you see. So, to pose the question in an open forum where two people have threads looking for damaged or bad cells (one of which you commented on) the impression in the community is going to be that it is reference to the activity on the forum. Not everyone lives in CA...for many people the online bubble is the only source of information. So, it is easy to say after the fact 'don't take it personally, it isn't about you, I see rude people asking around in the park all the time' but the damage may have already been done in other people's minds.

I'm out. If you would like to continue debating the ramifications of something that to the best of our knowledge has not even happened yet, be my guest.


P.S. Psychopixie - that VW Bug in you sig is counterfeit!!!

 

[tinkerbelle1956]

I myself would love a custom BATB POMP and I would proudly display it on my lanyard. The guy that had the 101 Salmation one on his lanyard broughts a lot of sttention in a positive way.

 

[Molly]

My two cents on this issue...... I have a good friend that buys Monster High dolls and essentially removes all the hair, paint (face & body) and then re-wigs it, repaints it and makes new clothes for it. She sells those $15-25.00 dolls for HUNDREDS and up to thousands of dollars. I mean before she can get one finished there are people lining up to get at them. Are they still Monster High dolls? Yes and no. The people buying them know they are OOAK Monster High dolls and they want them badly.

This seems to be the exact same issue IMO. If a person can make something even more fabulous, whether or not it can be officially recognized or traded (why would anyone try) in the parks or at PTN's why would anyone have a problem with it? If you personally don't like things that have been changed, altered, or upgraded in any way it seems pretty simple.... don't buy/trade them. If someone listed a OOAK PODM ebay I am confident that it would sell for more than what the original price tag was and if it was really spectacular it would garner even more interest.

At the end of it all the simple rule of "to each his own" seems perfectly applicable here. Don't be angry if someones tastes are different than yours and putting people down for them is uncalled for in every arena of life. If given the choice of peace or conflict there will always be those that will immediately choose conflict, for others peace. If everyone made a conscious choice to choose peace over preference just once every single day the world would be a better place.

A Dream is a wish your heart makes :hug:

 

[starry_solo]

I'm back with my thoughts. I think the OP was curious as to other's thoughts about why anyone would buy damaged/bad scene PODMs. Is there an ulterior "bad" motive, such as replacing the bad cell with a highly sought after cell (like Tangled, the "hair" scene?) and then trying to pass it off as such (without ever disclosing that the cell in the PODM isn't the cell that was originally there).

Think of it, buy a "bad" scene Tangled PODM for $50 and sell it, newly replaced with the "hair" scene for $400+?

I don't think the OP was trying to say that the people who were asking for those bad scenes was actually going to replace the bad scene with a good scene and then sell it as such, just that he wanted to get other people's thoughts.

Re "fixing" a broken post. You can go and buy an authentic trader pin from people here on DPF for $2, pull that post off and fix your broken post PODM with it. You still have an authentic Disney post but not the one that the pin originally came with. Obviously, one would expect the person to describe their pin as having been fixed (if trying to sell or trade that pin).

 

[Ozzie1988]

I would not care if it's a great cell than great, my personal collection has fakes and Scrappers sometime they look better than the original

 

[Nathan95]

This WASN'T directed at you personally, I have seen quite a few and wondered about it. I've seen some SHADY people asking in the parks as well (you know, the same ones who manage to get 10 pins with one wristband... those people who badmouth those who want it for their collections saying that they don't know what to do with the pin, that they need to be selling them, not putting them in books or boxes...).

I've not seen the threads about scrappers, but I would question those as well. Scrappers could be used for fun things like the pin frames or the like. I'd always be worried the scrappers would come back into the parks.

I've never said "do/charge" whatever. I think there are common sense limits.

If you are buying them and putting in new frames and passing that off, well that IS counterfeiting. Comparing that to a car isn't the same thing. If you replace a transmission in a car, you pretty much have to tell the buyer you replaced it, and when and with what kind (rebuild, new, off market, etc). I'd think it was the same with these pins. If you try to pass it off as authentic, that is shady and wrong. It's NOT authentic and if you tried to actually pass it off as such, that WOULD make it a counterfeit. To so as such would really imply a lack of morals that is quite frankly mind boggling.

Now, as I said a few minutes ago before seeing your pretty defensive response, I FULLY endorse doing this for innovating things like the moving picture. That is a really neat idea. I am TOTALLY for that and would love to see that. Heck, if you do it, show it to Disney and tell them how. It's an amazing idea!

On another note, I do know some are collecting "bad" scenes for the comedy of it. I sometimes will trade for an odd pin just because it is quite frankly... well... odd. Unique. And if you could get a whole collection of PODM butts, now THAT would be incredibly funny.

Now, getting to the last sentence - Since this wasn't directed at you and was a broader question, I felt no need to ask you if I could post this question. Honestly, I didn't see WHO was asking for bad pins besides Milky.

Who are these shady people you speak because I've never seen these kind of people you just described at the park? You also totally contradicted what you said in this post, if Milky and Erudolf are the only people you see asking for crap PODM then obviously this thread had to have been directed toward one of them

 

[Dalisair]

Good grief.

For those who don't know me, I'm not as much deffensive as I am blunt and mildly annoyed.

The OP asked what people were doing with these pins. THAT was the topic. It then hypothosized that it was replacing the cell, which in my case was wrong, so I spoke up and thus far have been the only one looking for these to do so.

You have got to understand that people don't know what it is you do at the park everyday and what you see. So, to pose the question in an open forum where two people have threads looking for damaged or bad cells (one of which you commented on) the impression in the community is going to be that it is reference to the activity on the forum. Not everyone lives in CA...for many people the online bubble is the only source of information. So, it is easy to say after the fact 'don't take it personally, it isn't about you, I see rude people asking around in the park all the time' but the damage may have already been done in other people's minds.

I'm out. If you would like to continue debating the ramifications of something that to the best of our knowledge has not even happened yet, be my guest.


P.S. Psychopixie - that VW Bug in you sig is counterfeit!!!

Keep in mind, I said in the title of the post - [h=1]"Damaged"/"bad scene" PODMs - "fixed"[/h]
I then discussed my worry about what some might be doing, and asked how people felt about that. You then took it upon yourself to defend what you were doing, no matter if you call it blunt or annoyed you were defending your actions - last I checked that was the definition of being defensive.

I hypothesized on a worst case scenario and asked how people felt about THAT.

In response to your bubble comment, keep in mind that not everybody sees every thread as well. I didn't attack you. I didn't even know of your posts. I had never seen or heard of the awesomeness that is electronic mods. Hell, *I* want one of those. Screw getting my dream frame for Fantasia, I'll put in my dream sequence!

Again, you jumped in and defended your actions which I hadn't questioned, and had no knowledge about you in the first place.

 

[Dalisair]

Who are these shady people you speak because I've never seen these kind of people you just described at the park? You also totally contradicted what you said in this post, if Milky and Erudolf are the only people you see asking for crap PODM then obviously this thread had to have been directed toward one of them

Milky is asking for PODM at cut rate prices. It is up to anyone to sell to Milky. I never saw Erudolf's post (that I can recall). So I've only noticed Milkys post THAT I CAN REMEMBER but I wasn't singling them out.

I have seen people in the park knowingly pass off scrappers and counterfeits as real. I try to never trade with those people. I have been "taken" by a few of those. Just today I had someone walk up and trade a pin to me on a backer card and in a plastic cover. It was an OBVIOUS scrapper (all at the tables agreed after it was pulled out). But I had already made the trade. My GF was taken a few weeks ago by someone passing a LE Gadget off as real and she traded a LE UK Stitch St. Patrick's pin. And the person stayed calm and ASKED for it when she asked what she could trade for the counterfeit not knowing it was fake. There are a LOT of shady people out there. Sometimes my faith in humanity is lacking, and more so when I have been taken for items because I am nice. If you are at DLR, ask Shawn about the shady guy at BatB PODM this month, and how he was badmouthing those standing in line for the second chance while he was holding 10 personally.