Can someone explain these crazy prices?

A few weeks ago someone posted a thread about a "new" auction site called Hake's Collectables, and they were selling "Disney Graded PinPics Pins." Some of the most notoriously hard to find pins were listed. Here is a link to the completed auctions.

http://www.hakes.com/search.asp?dep...archFor=Auctions&CategoryCode=631_0&Criteria=

Many of these I am questioning about their final bid prices, mostly the beloved tales. Just about all of those are available on ebay for BIN prices far lower then what they just sold here for. Some of the PODMs are just WAY over the top for what they normally sell for. And the Belle R/C sold for more then Ariel R/C? The highest offer I got for my Belle R/C was $300, and it just sold for over $1k? (I'd be happy to sell mine for the "going" rate! :lol

But on a more serious note, can someone explain why these are so high? I know what "graded" items are and that they all have very high grades, but does that automatically make them THAT much more valuable? Does that mean we should be having our collection/traders/all pins graded and use that in our trading/selling processes? Thoughts please!

(Let's try to keep this civil, and keep the conversations to only those that involve the process of grading and selling these pins and your appropriate thoughts on them. If this gets out of hand in anyway, MODS please close and delete it. Thanks!)

How does one not assume the bids are rigged? To try to add that much value to this new finangled grading process. The grading people are just trying to market a service so everyone will send their pins to be graded to sell for more money. Shenanigans I say.

Even the Gomes on there are currently listed on eBay for cheaper prices by highly reputable sellers. Why would someone pay 4 times the going rate haha. Kinda sketchy.

Agreed, so rigged. These people are just money hungry. Welcome to pin trading.

I always compare with ebay sold listings when I'm buying/selling a pin and I don't foresee that changing anytime soon. Idk who is buying those overpriced pins but they must be ballin! Lol

I believe the theory is, that the normal clientele of an auction house like Hakes would have no qualms paying high prices for something that has been graded and authenticated. It's an untapped market that has previously been scared away because of concerns of authenticity and future loss of value. If that well-heeled group enters the game, then the prices change accordingly. However, like the others that have posted, I have my suspicions.

However, at least the auctions gave me reason to check out the other Disneyana featured. Animation cel from The Practical Pig, with all 3 Little Pigs, AND background. Originally sold through the Courvoisier Galleries, the original gallery to get into the "Disneyana" market in the late 30s... $1750. If I had the money, I'd go for that. Or maybe the lot of 3 original Robin Hood production cels that sold for $450. There are some vintage mass-market items that are pretty neat too.

4K for a PODM? I understand it's the "hair" scene, but c'mon!

I was only interested in the meg r/c and that sold for around $100 more that it did recently here. Missed both xD I don't see how grading justifys this price hike and I'm still not sold on pins being permanently sealed In a little box.

Actual hand touched original cels, ok, they are worth money. PODM's with a random reel of film probably from one of the 5,000 movie theaters that ran those movies made into an LE2000 pin, not so much. These are movie reel cuts, not original film cels. Cels cannot be done for Pixar movies, they are produced with CGI. There is no hand-painting. Maybe they are reproductions of what a cel would have looked like, or litho prints. These pins are not in the same league as Disney animation Cel's. These auctions tried to elevate them to that status with the prices they sold for. I'd like to see who bought them and where the money came from. Sotheby's auctions, where many cel's are sold, you can't fake it. We all know the hair cell is worth the most and is the Holy Grail of all PODM's, but $5k? No.

There are 3 options how I see it. A. Some gullible rich people actually paid that much. (I think this is very unlikely.) B. Someone is trying to educate, promote, whatever you call it Disney pins to a high-end type auction clinetele. If this was the plan, I don't see how people all of a sudden blow that much money on pins they can get elsewhere. (Unless these are like Japanese buyers or something?) C. Someone came up with a grading process for pins, wants to promote this service and it's benefit of huge appreciation of value to drum up PR for selling the process. I see this as the logical option. My only questions are who the buyers were and did they pay up. Hakes.com takes a 15% buyers premium, would someone really pay 15% of those prices to promote a business? On a site most of us had never heard of before someone dropped a R/C Punzy on it? I don't think so. So either someone inflated the prices on purpose to get attention, or someone inflated prices for sabotage and never planned to pay. Or the crazy illogical option that someone actually bought them, but come on. Spock knows the answer to that one.

Mischiefmanaged said:

can someone explain why these are so high?

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Let me try.

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Nope, can't do it.

Someone said that there is a 15% buyers fee added on top of the winning bid to pay the auction house as well.

I just don't think pins overall have a huge problem with needing to be graded. Sure nobody wants a counterfeit or scrapper, but pins are not as fragile as comic books or baseball cards and most of the time there is very little to distinguish one from the other. I think the PODM's have the most variables as they are hand assembled and there are some crookedly mounted frames as well as soft plastic covering the frames that can get scratched/bubbles.

I also was watching these auctions and was stunned at how much some of the pins sold for!

Like others said, I am highly skeptical of this new system and I don't think one person's collection (not to mention the first auction of graded pins ever) is the telling point of how this new grading system will turn out. The true test will be if/when other people start getting their pins graded and seeing how much they sell for. But how many people are really going to do this?

I still can't get over some of the prices...almost all of them seemingly went for twice (and some even more, much more) than the "going rate" for these pins. I really wonder if based on these prices many people will start to get their pins graded and encapsulated...it seemed like the general consensus from the previous thread (and my personal opinion) is that most people did not want their pins in clear, un-openable, boxes that don't come with their original cards.

And if these are the new "going rate" prices for these pins...I own 11 of the pins that were featured in the auction and I will gladly sell them for these prices...heck I will even give a $100 discount! LOL :lol:

The other thing interesting to me is that they had to give a pre-auction estimate on ending price. Every pin met it's minimum estimate except for Aristocat's BT. Every other pin at least beat it's minimum, but more often than not was in the top 80% of the pre-estimate category (or over in many cases.) There is no way they knew those insanely high amounts. Especially on a barely heard of auction site in this community. The amounts and the final bids had to be pre-determined. I've seen people list eBay auctions with no intention of selling the pin, they auction snip a bid at the end, like $10,000 just to see what the #2 person would pay, so they know how high the value is. This may have been something like that too.

What the heck! No one would pay that much for those pins. Seriously?
oh and can someone please explain to me what a "graded pin" is? I'm very confused haha.

Everyone's observations about these auctions is really interesting... there have definitely been a lot of valid points brought up. Things that make you go "mmmm..." I just think it's crazy paying $200 for one pin so all these auction prices are f-ing insane to me. I'll be interested to see how much the next set of pins sell for (assuming there will be another auction).

$408 for Lion king beloved tales. Ain't nobody got time (or cash) for that!!

Diablo said:

Everyone's observations about these auctions is really interesting... there have definitely been a lot of valid points brought up. Things that make you go "mmmm..." I just think it's crazy paying $200 for one pin so all these auction prices are f-ing insane to me. I'll be interested to see how much the next set of pins sell for (assuming there will be another auction).

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I volunteer to have my pins graded by this grading firm and then let them auction my pins off. As soon as I receive those prices and the money in my pocket I'll sing their praises like a song bird. But that ain't gonna happen. I think this was a shock and awe campaign to try to drum up interest in this grading company. How many are rushing to get their pins graded here? I'm not. I know Pixie wants a grading system, but I'm not sure this qualifies. Is the grading system requested just to confirm a pins authenticity? Or is it meant to add value for high-graded pins? Maybe we can agree on ground rules for point deductions. Like, a paint dip is a -.5 or an extra paint drop is a -.2 or a bent post is a -1.0 or whatever. Then you youself can inspect and come up with a number. But I'm still not sure what that does. Maybe if it's under an 8.0 you set yourself a limit? Or traders can agree the pin is less valuable than the last one that sold on eBay which was a 9.2 grade? I don't know.

If you want to do grading right, perhaps make a thinner plastic case that can be sealed that only adds a few millimeters of plastic on either side, and still allows the pinback to hold the pin on. Basic shapes of Round, Triangle, Square, Rectangle in multiple sizes will take away less from the pin. Those cases are too big and a joke. Pins are more durable than baseball cards and comics, so personally I don't see the need for graded pins. I guess if I was worried with thousand dollar pins then having someone else inpsect for authenticity isn't the worst, but then you don't need to encapsulate it, just send it to an established 3rd party for inspection. Say like My-D Pins offers the service. You ship your sold pin to them, they inspect to confirm it's real, they charge like $20 and then you pay them to mail off. Like pin escrow. They can post a report on their concerns or % they are sure it's real. What's $20 extra for a $1000 pin to know for sure? (I'm not saying Josh wants to do this, I'm just giving an example. Find someone we all trust that is knowledgeable with pins and is a neutral party.)

I feel as this is so blatantly a marketing attempt by pinpics to spark interest in their new grading system for pins. I feel as though they wanted to generate buzz and so they graded this small group of HTF pins and sold them through some second-rate auction site for crazy high prices. But the thing is-- they NEEDED them to sell at such astronomical prices. Because why else have your pins graded? If these pins went for their true "going rates" then it doesn't make the grading process anything special. Having them sell for such high amounts gives the sense that having your pins graded is better. They want you to think your pins will command more on the secondary market by having them graded. But I, and I'm hoping most collectors agree, dont need a number to enjoy my desired pins nor do I want them in some sterile case.

And that Tangled PODM for $4,000!!!! I have the same one! Any takers at $3,000? Haha.

These are ridiculous prices.

translation said:

I feel as this is so blatantly a marketing attempt by pinpics to spark interest in their new grading system for pins. I feel as though they wanted to generate buzz and so they graded this small group of HTF pins and sold them through some second-rate auction site for crazy high prices. But the thing is-- they NEEDED them to sell at such astronomical prices. Because why else have your pins graded? If these pins went for their true "going rates" then it doesn't make the grading process anything special. Having them sell for such high amounts gives the sense that having your pins graded is better. They want you to think your pins will command more on the secondary market by having them graded. But I, and I'm hoping most collectors agree, dont need a number to enjoy my desired pins nor do I want them in some sterile case.

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I don't think I could have worded it better. I do believe some of them (if not all of them) were rigged in order to sell for loads more than they normally do (I was only watching some of them, so IDK how they all sold). It just doesn't make sense that some of them went THAT much higher. Okay, I can see some high-spenders shelling out a bit more cash for some of these pins since they were graded. To them, that grade might mean something so of course they would shell out a bit more. However, some of them (like that Tangled PODM) just have no basis for going that high. On Ebay it sold for $400 and we were all in shock at how high that was. Why would someone buy this pin for 10x that amount when it isn't even as functional as a normal pin? If they are going to save it and try to turn it over for a profit down the road, they won't even get 1/2 what they paid since the highest the pin goes for is $400 and if they REALLY wanted it that badly, I bet they could post an offer for $1000 and they'd have at least 4-5 takers since the pin generally goes for $400 so anybody with that pin would have jumped at the chance to sell it for $1000 and the buyer would have saved $3000.

To the OP: The Hakes auction catered to a different group of collectors. Not to the usual pin collectors. These folks bid what they were willing to pay for what they felt was a better pin than what could be gotten on eBay. They are ART collectors, and they wanted the Graded, safely encapsulated, piece of disney art that just happened to be a pin. That would be why the prices went higher.... In my opinion.

For the replies so far:: The veiled accusations on here of rigged bidding are rather rude. Lets not go down that road ok? If there is shill bidding, it would harm Hakes auction house. HAKES is not "some second rate" auction house. It is very well known and trusted in art and collectables. Do not imply illegal activity about an auction house you do not understand, or possibly didn't even know existed 2 months ago. That will just get DPF into trouble. Think what you want about other people, but don't imply illegal activity without proof please?

As for the comment that this was just a "blatant marketing attempt"... Wait... is that NOT what a young business does? Do companies not market their services to the correct group of customers? Why is this being used as such a derogatory statement? Heaven forbid a company try to become viable. oh no! **sorry, That was a bit sarcastic, but those arguments bug me, they don't make sense to me at all.**

Of course we dont need a number on a little clear box to enjoy our favorite pins. I certainly don't. I like to pet, and hug, and luv my precious'... We are a different type of collector than those who bid on that auction. ((And dont get upset, I said TYPE, not class, not paygrade, not any sort of lesser person... )) I am NOT impugning anyone here with that comment, I would be kicking my own shins if I were. I will likely get very few of my pins graded and encapsulated. Hardly any I own are worth that sort of investment. However, if i were to get my hands on a r/c Rapunzel, you BET i would have is graded, encapsulated and then I would shadowbox frame that beauty... Showcase it on my wall, and get it insured!

Finally, because it will likely come up if it has not already... This is NOT going to change how WE all trade and buy/sell to eachother. If someone was to put a non-graded r/c punzel up for sale here or eBay, it would not fetch that massive price tag. Not because it isnt worth it, but because the people who look here or on eBay for "Disney pins" in general are not the folks bidding at Hakes.

Edit add::
Hakes has been an active high quality auction house for Collectables since 1967. For anyone who thinks they are some brand new "second rate" auction house. Please visit their website and learn all about them.

Just in case anyone is still doubtful of encapsulated pins, hopefully this will give you peace of mind.

We'll gladly grade your pin (;



We're thinking $150 or best offer?

Not even Darris would pay those prices.

PinHunters said:

Just in case anyone is still doubtful of encapsulated pins, hopefully this will give you peace of mind.

We'll gladly grade your pin (;

We're thinking $150 or best offer?

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I'll start the bidding... $50.

It doesn't pass the smell test...and there is probably a reason. At this point I don't have any proof of fraud...but I know the LANSAM group always has an uncanny ability to be around whenever there is something shady going on... or is that master of shifty.... dunno..

I collect pins..not paperweights. The grading scheme has been tried and failed before..no reason it will succeed this time -I am better monitoring my own collection and researching my own character -than risking it to someone else.

Best way to authenticate your collection: Don't give it to anyone else to screw with....

Just saying...now back in my box...

Diana