Retracting Bids in the DPF Auctions?

So, I've been watching (and bidding on) a few of the auctions in the DPF Auction House lately, and I've seen a couple of bidders ask to retract their bids.

Is there a rule regarding bid retractions? I had always assumed that if you placed a bid, it was binding until the auction is over and you couldn't retract a bid (just like the auctioneer couldn't just retract a pin and close down the auction).

Does it matter if you were #2 or #15 in the leader board? I think we all agree that the #1 bid should never be allowed to be retracted.

Any official clarification would be welcomed, and of course everyone's opinions are being solicited by this thread. Just behave.

I don't think it's against the rules to 'bow out' if you aren't winning. No use in keeping those pins up on a leaderboard if you would rather trade them somewhere else. I do believe that if you are #1 on the leaderboard, you shouldn't be allowed to retract your bid unless there is some unforeseen event (pin broke, pin was stolen, etc).

i have looked on the auction forum's rules post and tried to find clarification, but I wasn't able to find any. I do think something should be added regarding this topic.

As far as I know there are no rules regarding retractions of bids

I've seen some auctioneers specifically state that the number #1 bidder couldn't take away from or change their bid but I don't think I've ever seen an official rule on it. I don't think it matters if you're not on the leader board.

But can (or should) the #2 person retract a bid? I have seen some auctioneers that end up picking someone who wasn't listed as #1 in the last leaderboard because they had a change of heart or got feedback from a friend or loved one (especially spouses or kids).

Do we need an official ruling on this? It might be good to have it set up before it becomes a problem. Then again, I may be worrying over nothing.

went and read the rules again.... There is no rule regarding bid retraction or even really guidance for proper bidding. This is something to definitely review.

Personal opinion:

1. the first place spot should be "bid locked." And not able to be changed... There may be unusual situation where this would change, I will discuss a bit more below.
2. any bid from 2nd place out should not be bid locked. I mean, your allowed to add or change the bid to try and take the first spot, so why not? If you are not adding to or changing your bid, I think it is a gesture of respect to the other bidders and the auctioneer to let them know your not continuing in the auction.
3. Most importantly... I seriously dislike "ties" on a leaderboard. YES, I get it, and i am not pointing figures or being cranky. Ties happen, I have tied people on leaderboards occasionally.... BUT they are happening to often and they "feel" like someone is trying to pump up bids by doing it.... especially if the person running the auction puts "ties for first" in every. single. auction.

If we are going to "lock" first place, we need to stop allowing Ties for first as well.

I mentioned unusual situations for a first place locked bid being retracted. To me, the only time that would be acceptable is if: You lost the pin, found it was damaged or broken.. that sort of thing. Before i place a bid, i always check my trade book to make sure I still have the pin I am bidding. In the process I see that it is in good shape as well. I have only ever backed out of first place in an auction ONCE.

I think its bad form to retract a bid, but until there is a rule... its all just opinion. well, unless the auctioneer stated rules for that specific auction.

Actually, if we lock only the #1 bid I predict we will get MORE ties and not fewer. On the other hand, we could lock the top 3 bids and not allow ties. I really do think that sometimes an auctioneer is having a hard time between two (or more?) bids. To only lock one of them may not give the auctioneer the freedom to make their ultimate choice or may force them to delay a leaderboard as a way to keep the multiple bids of interest in play.

See, I clearly think too much about these things, especially since I rarely bid on them.

I always said when I ran an auction, I would never do a tie for first, but when I recently had my first auction I did have a tie for first. I felt awful, but I honestly couldn't decide. Maybe if there is a tie for first, the auctioneer should have to pick within a certain amount of time. I tried to pick between the two as fast as I could.

I feel like first place should be frozen, but otherwise I see no problem in retracting a bid. The auctioneer has already basically said that 1st place's pins are more interesting to them, so if you aren't planning on adding more pins to your bid, may as well give someone else a chance. Just my two cents

imp said:

I've been thinking about this too, as we don't have a rule in place. Absent a rule, I don't think it matters whether the auctioneer specifies that a bid is locked.

My personal view:

~ To protect the auctioneer, a bid which has been posted as #1 on the leader board should be locked, because other potential bidders may have decided that they could not compete with the #1 bid. I don't see a need to lock other bids.

~ An auctioneer can choose any bid in the end, regardless of the leader board, but it doesn't necessarily follow that other bids should be locked.

~ Ties will happen. I think that if you are tied for #1, you should be allowed to retract your bid, unless the other #1 bid(s) is retracted first - ie. only a bidder who is in the #1 spot alone would be locked in. Since the auctioneer was having difficulty deciding which bid should be #1, (s)he shouldn't be terribly prejudiced if one of them is retracted, because the remaining #1 bid is very close in value to the auctioneer.

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I like this, but would have no problem with locking the top 2 bids. The other option is to do away with leaderboards and lock in all bids. I know I wouldn't like that one but it could take care of the problem.

imp said:

I've been thinking about this too, as we don't have a rule in place. Absent a rule, I don't think it matters whether the auctioneer specifies that a bid is locked.

My personal view:

~ To protect the auctioneer, a bid which has been posted as #1 on the leader board should be locked, because other potential bidders may have decided that they could not compete with the #1 bid. I don't see a need to lock other bids.

~ An auctioneer can choose any bid in the end, regardless of the leader board, but it doesn't necessarily follow that other bids should be locked.

~ Ties will happen. I think that if you are tied for #1, you should be allowed to retract your bid, unless the other #1 bid(s) is retracted first - ie. only a bidder who is in the #1 spot alone would be locked in. Since the auctioneer was having difficulty deciding which bid should be #1, (s)he shouldn't be terribly prejudiced if one of them is retracted, because the remaining #1 bid is very close in value to the auctioneer.

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so even though an auctioneer states that the first place bid is locked for his auction, it really isnt?

unibear said:

Actually, if we lock only the #1 bid I predict we will get MORE ties and not fewer. On the other hand, we could lock the top 3 bids and not allow ties. I really do think that sometimes an auctioneer is having a hard time between two (or more?) bids. To only lock one of them may not give the auctioneer the freedom to make their ultimate choice or may force them to delay a leaderboard as a way to keep the multiple bids of interest in play.

See, I clearly think too much about these things, especially since I rarely bid on them.

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barrieralex said:

I always said when I ran an auction, I would never do a tie for first, but when I recently had my first auction I did have a tie for first. I felt awful, but I honestly couldn't decide. Maybe if there is a tie for first, the auctioneer should have to pick within a certain amount of time. I tried to pick between the two as fast as I could.

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for the above 2 responses, you misunderstand what I was saying. I am sorry. I think occasional ties are totally fine. I have a problem with those who do it for every (or 90% of) the auctions they run. Unfortunatly, i think people are taking advantage of the allowance of ties. When multiple people do that over and over it becomes unfair to the group as a whole and a rule needs to be placed to stop it.

chroll said:

so even though an auctioneer states that the first place bid is locked for his auction, it really isnt?

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Thats my understanding too. Although we all tend to follow a rule we set in our own auctions. lol Wouldnt that look bad? I certainly wouldnt want to tell people, "your in first, your bid is locked" but then change my mind and pick a different winner.

I don't have any problem with retracting bids if you're not in first. I do think that if you are in first and retract your bid, it's a little rude if you ask me. You just wasted the auctioneer's and everyone else's time and could have chased others away with a bid they couldn't compete with. I do HATE multiple ties. I've seen 4 way ties recently and find it a little disheartening because I think it's done only to squeeze extra pins out of people. A whole day or two could go by with a 4 way tie without the auctioneer formulating a concrete leader board, and to me that just isn't right (I know from experience because it's happened to me, and more than once). Don't get me wrong, I still love the auctions, but I do think the rules could be tweaked a bit to make things more fair.

So, if a bid placed by any bidder (even the #1 leader) isn't locked in and binding, why do the rules force the auctioneer to go through with the auction even if they don't like any of the bids? That seems a bit unfair...

unibear said:

So, if a bid placed by any bidder (even the #1 leader) isn't locked in and binding, why do the rules force the auctioneer to go through with the auction even if they don't like any of the bids? That seems a bit unfair...

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The winning bidder at the end of the auction must complete the trade. What the rules do not currently address is whether bids are locked before a winner is announced.

Better yet, add a rule for no ties for 1st place. Personally, if I am tied I will not add a pin. A tie to me is just an attempt to get more by the auctioner. I will wait and if the other person bids then I may, but if not, I will let it ride out. Imagine if eBay allowed people to bid the same amount and then you were tied for winning bidder. It would be a game of chicken to see who would bid more, probably at the last second. Ties are no good. Get rid of them.

Here is my personal opinion

With the increasing number of pin collecting teams, families, couples and partners it is VERY hard to decide on winners and or leaders, I may like a bid and think it's worth 1st place while my husband thinks it's a 4th place bid. We have very different tastes in pins and we normally end up compromising and picking someone in between. And with as antsy as some can get while waiting for a leader board it puts pressure on the auctioneer to make a hasty decision which they may end up regretting later and I don't see how "locking in" just the first place bid is fair, I would personally like to see all bids or no bids "locked in" or maybe the top 3 bids as a in between? so it gives you room to change your mind and let's face it some bids are crazy close. I don't like ties I try NOT to have them in auctions but there have been some big pins that we have auctioned in the past that it was so close and caused so many disagreements within my family as to what should be 1st or 2nd and a tie was the only way to give us more time to decide while letting the bidders know about where they stand without breathing down your neck to post a leader.

I like the idea of locking the top 3 bids (3 total, so if there are ties it's still the top 3 locked).

I didn't know bids could be retracted!?! :shock:

I retract my bid if someone pre-bids a pin that hasn't been released yet. pre-bidding should be banned too. If we're making ammendments.

I like the idea of the top 3 bids being locked, and I also agree that you should NOT be able to bid a pin that hasn't been released yet! ESPECIALLY if it's not an OE. There is NO guarantee that anyone can get a pin that hasn't been released yet and it isn't fair to the other bidders.

Gotta agree with the idea of no future release bids. However to amend that a bit, if it is releasing before the auction ends, perhaps allowable? I doubt that will happen much, but to me, if your will have the pin in hand guaranteed before auction close, you can bid. I do think it is better form to wait until it is in hand though.... I mean, what if you bid a DSF marquee that releases on the same day the auction ends, but then you have the bad luck of drawing # 503 at the release??? suckage most foul!

Mothersknows best: My dear lady, you and your husband rarely chose to tie a spot and you are not one of those who takes advantage of the rules.

imp said:

~ To protect the auctioneer, a bid which has been posted as #1 on the leader board should be locked, because other potential bidders may have decided that they could not compete with the #1 bid.

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So will the mods consider a new rule addition on that?
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~ Ties will happen. I think that if you are tied for #1, you should be allowed to retract your bid, unless the other #1 bid(s) is retracted first - ie. only a bidder who is in the #1 spot alone would be locked in. Since the auctioneer was having difficulty deciding which bid should be #1, (s)he shouldn't be terribly prejudiced if one of them is retracted, because the remaining #1 bid is very close in value to the auctioneer.

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Adding this rule too might make the ties a little less irksome to some people.

markheardjr said:

A tie to me is just an attempt to get more by the auctioner.

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I think sometimes they are, but sometimes they are not. You can tell by the patterns of auctions, like Pixie said. If they do it once in a while, it's probably in good faith; if they do it EVERY time, or most times, that's a pattern that would make me think they're trying to get more.

For instance, in one of my recent auctions, people started adding to their bids in the last ten minutes-ish of the auction. More than three people did so. I wanted to give people at least SOME idea where they stood before time ran out, and I was afraid that if I took the careful time to review everything, I'd run out of time. So I threw out a leaderboard with a tie in first place, then immediately went back to try and sort out which would be ahead, and posted again while I still had time.

And sometimes people really just can't decide.

Imagine if eBay allowed people to bid the same amount and then you were tied for winning bidder. It would be a game of chicken to see who would bid more, probably at the last second.

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I don't think this comparison is valid. When bidding dollar amounts, a dollar equals a dollar; there's no variation in bid values, so the auctioneer can't be left trying to make up their mind between $50 and $50. When bidding pins, there is no clearly equal value between two bids; it depends as much on what the auctioneer collects and what they want more as it does on the price of the pin.

markheardjr said:

Pre-bidding should be banned too. If we're making ammendments.

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Agreed. I used to be in favor of this when I was first trading. I admit that was partly self-interest on my part; I didn't have many traders, so I would bid things that I knew were coming in trades (only if I had an actual DC#, and I would ask the auctioneer's permission first, but still, that's no guarantee) out of desperation to have something to bid. Now I think that wasn't fair of me. I still don't have many traders, but I think the auctioneer should be able to be certain they'll be getting what they're offered. The trade could be canceled if the pin doesn't arrive, but what if someone else would've bid differently without that pin in the mix? What if they wouldn't have chosen me at all without that pin in the mix?

If there are people who feel strongly that it *should* be allowed, I would at least say "allowed only at the auctioneer's discretion".