PIN & POP A Poll and Discussion: Pin and Pop Inspection Process, What Are Your Thoughts?

[hopemax]

Last TA, I put a link to a post of mine here in the "Problem Pins" thread, in the Condition Notes field. If you notice the post #xx on the upper right of your post, that is a link specifically to that post. You can right click and copy the URL and then paste it in the Condition Notes on P&P.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

Not seeing mentioned:

• The amount of time and resources pinandpop staff use to provide the minor flaw detection. (I think this one is huge for PnP's costs - their current payment for their time doesn't take this amount of inspection into consideration... so we all are having to pay more.)
• Pinandpop points out things that could be called natural variations during the manufacturing process.
• The normalization pinandpop lends to this level of flaw inspection with all pin traders. (This level of inspection is not normal... in my 10+ years of experience in this hobby.)
• Each pin trader has to pay a token for the cancelled trade.
  • (Note: I have no issue with PnP getting paid for their time inspecting pins... whether a trade goes through or not PnP should be paid for their time.)

Sum total in the experience is Negative for Flawed pin owner:

1) the trader's pin is tied up for months waiting for inspection​

2) the trader is charged a token because of their trade partner's decision (could be a perfectionist pin trader, an opportunistic pin trader, or a newby not understanding blemishes, gets scared & cancels.)​

3) the trader receives back a pin of less value (ethics may state disclosure of blemish findings (blemishes the trader didn't notice and perhaps still cannot see with their naked eye upon return of the pin to them.))​

Another idea for fairness/balance: if the level of blemish inspection continues perhaps the trader who uses the blemish to back out of the trade pays PnP for both tokens (this would resolve #2 above).

Just throwing more for a great discussion. I am appreciating everyone's comments. Keep 'em coming.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

To clarify/standardize the poll I added some wording to options 2 and 3 about seeing with naked eye and using minor/major in a way that is more consistent. Votes may be changed if the clarifications change how you want to respond to the poll above.

 

[ViciousLady]

I will say even when I was trading every week in person at the parks 20 years ago - there were people who had little light up magnifying glasses and inspected pins for any blemishes or flaws that most people would not be able to see 'at a glance with the naked eye.' So I DO believe that such perfectionist collectors have existed and continue to exist, and hey more power to them, but I tended to avoid traders that I knew had a reputation for being so critical and picky because they also tended to skew their valuations in a way I disagreed with.
The difference is that it cost me nothing to look at their pins, have them look at mine and trade or not trade, it was a matter of minutes and a shrug. When you have to take your pin out of trade circulation for months and pay for a service that does not even result in a trade - I think this is where the major frustrations are arising.

 

[GeraldineWH]

As frustrating as I sometimes get with the day to day, when I receive my P&P package with the pins that have gone through I'm a happy person and that will keep me trading on P&P. I have also expanded to trading through the Pinpics trade assist. I do also have in person trading available to me locally or local-ish and I also trade that way.

When a pin is denied for a blemish on Pin and Pop I am of course disappointed and a bit frustrated and I put it aside as an in person trader so that the person I am trading with can inspect the pin in person and that has been successful. I have actually had a pin rejected through Pin and Pop due to (magnified) flaws and that same trader who rejected it saw me/the pin at an in person trade event, and traded for the pin at the in person event. So yes, I think the magnification sometimes scares off traders/trades, but I understand Pin and Pop wanting to provide full disclosure.

I don't think I would be frustrated with rejected pins if the turn around time from Pin and Pop wasn't so long. I don't mind the pin being rejected per se, but I do mind being without the pin for so long and having it rejected.

I am a picky trader about flaws. I do accept some pins that Pin and Pop says are uncertain or blemished because I've learned over time how to evaluate the magnified photos for myself, but I also reject many. I take into consideration what/where the blemish is located and the likelihood I'll see it or it will bother me, what pin I'm trading away, what the "trade" value is, the rarity of the pin, whether I think I'll be able to trade it to someone else if I tire of the pin, and then decide whether I'm willing to take a risk. In my beginning days of Pin and Pop I'm sure I declined every uncertain or blemished pins but now that I have more experience and trust myself more, I give my own careful consideration and so far I've been satisfied. Less experienced traders or traders who are risk adverse are going to be more likely to decline.

I think flaws and pin trading values go hand in hand. I know production flaws are out of our control but if I buy a pin at retail I may have the option to return the pin if it is flawed, or I can chose to keep it for retail price. When trading, traders are (usually) not trading at retail price they are trading at market value - which can be a big difference. While I might tolerate a flaw at retail price, I am not going to be inclined to trade for a flawed pin that is trading at 2x, 3x, 4x the retail price. 'll wait for a non-flawed one at that cost. Also, if a pin is a common open edition pin and there are tens of thousands of these pins out there easily accessible why should I accept a flawed pin when I can get a non-flawed one? If you want to trade to me at retail or less than retail with the flaw I'll consider it. But if it is a flawed pin being traded for significantly more than retail price, or it is a super common pin I can easily pick up elsewhere, then I'll decline and wait and get a pin without flaws.

Pin and Pop has to be cautious because as much as some people complain the review is too harsh with magnification, others would complain they got a flawed pin they don't want. I'm one of those that will happily pay 2 tokens for a thorough review and for me that might include asking for a video so I can see flaws from different angles and without the magnification. To me it is worth the tokens because I am paying for a service I'm requesting and because I am saving so much on shipping by batch shipping. I've been paying close to $6.00 to ship one or two pins through PinPic assisted mail trades whereas I ship an entire box to Pin and Pop for no more than double that and maybe less. So I think the savings on shipping needs to be considered when considering the costs of using Pin and Pop. I think it is a nice option for those like me who want to selectively pay for the review to have the option to do so, and those who don't want to pay for it have the option not to do so - and perhaps this will speed up the process for everyone overall.

 

[hdtv267]

Not seeing mentioned:

• The amount of time and resources pinandpop staff use to provide the minor flaw detection. (I think this one is huge for PnP's costs - their current payment for their time doesn't take this amount of inspection into consideration... so we all are having to pay more.)
• Pinandpop points out things that could be called natural variations during the manufacturing process.
• The normalization pinandpop lends to this level of flaw inspection with all pin traders. (This level of inspection is not normal... in my 10+ years of experience in this hobby.)
• Each pin trader has to pay a token for the cancelled trade.
  • (Note: I have no issue with PnP getting paid for their time inspecting pins... whether a trade goes through or not PnP should be paid for their time.)

Sum total in the experience is Negative for Flawed pin owner:

1) the trader's pin is tied up for months waiting for inspection​

2) the trader is charged a token because of their trade partner's decision (could be a perfectionist pin trader, an opportunistic pin trader, or a newby not understanding blemishes, gets scared & cancels.)​

3) the trader receives back a pin of less value (ethics may state disclosure of blemish findings (blemishes the trader didn't notice and perhaps still cannot see with their naked eye upon return of the pin to them.))​

Another idea for fairness/balance: if the level of blemish inspection continues perhaps the trader who uses the blemish to back out of the trade pays PnP for both tokens (this would resolve #2 above).

Just throwing more for a great discussion. I am appreciating everyone's comments. Keep 'em coming.

In the highlighted section , I think back that extra staff was brought on to help process things faster, yet having someone get out a jewelers loupe is really taking up alot of resources. I don't know if it's the volume of trades being made or those newer members joining up being more picky about things. When I first became involved with PnP , he checking was more about the pins authenticy than mass production paint specks.
I've no issue either with them being paid for time.

As to being paid more also the event later this month was going to have additional charges for having each pin examined and they back off of those. Given how the arcade numbers have grown as we've gone on. I'm predicting 11,000 pins are goiing to be traded , especially if they continue with allowing VIP members to expand tables. How long will *that* take - especially if March & the mail ins for second chance aren't sorted by May 28th.

It's concerning and I'm glad to be reading everyone's takes. I'm still frustrated, but understanding a bit how others think.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

Another point I am trying to get across and one that I absolutely struggle with. I had to think my way around and out of it and have to continue to remind myself the way I trade is not wrong (accepting minor flaws in my trades.)

Gaining the perfect pin. The pinnacle? This is something to be valued and encouraged? But is it? Why should we encourage and support those ISO the best pins out there using the limited resources of PnP?

It’s odd to say, but think about it… Many posts in this discussion accept and have said to the effect of "this isn't the way I trade, but people have a right to gain un-flawed pins." Well, what if we flip that. What about our right to not worry about someone else’s desire to gain unflawed pins.

The questions:

• Why is gaining unflawed pins so acceptable and supported?
• Should PnP resources be tied up in the pursuit of perfection of a small percentage of traders?
• When do we decide the negative impact is unacceptable for PnP users who accept minor factory flaws?
• Why does perfection overrule moderation as the only acceptable option?

Conclusion: The interests of traders who accept minor flaws are being pushed aside in favor of those who insist on flawless pins.

Where is the balance in the current process on PnP?

 

[ViciousLady]

@TheMickeyMouseRules
While I agree with many of your points and find myself more aligned with your take on how I personally would like to see the direction of trading go, at the end of the day PnP IS a business.
It is for them to decide what aspects to push/market and how much they want to invest or encourage their 'verification/grading' vs their 'ability to mass trade'.
We don't have access to the hard numbers for what it costs them to run this service, and it is a whole endeavor that is clearly not simple or other groups would have popped up to compete.
Clearly based on the announcement that they will be making changes and token price adjustments they are also figuring this out, but I am under no illusion that at the end of the day they will serve the more profitable side of their user base out of necessity if nothing else.

We the traders and 'customers' can say 'no we won't support your site if we feel it doesn't align with our trade values' but I think for many people convenience and access to trading at all wins out currently. Now if the wait times and token loses become too much and make it no longer convenient then that will change.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

@TheMickeyMouseRules
While I agree with many of your points and find myself more aligned with your take on how I personally would like to see the direction of trading go, at the end of the day PnP IS a business.
It is for them to decide what aspects to push/market and how much they want to invest or encourage their 'verification/grading' vs their 'ability to mass trade'.
We don't have access to the hard numbers for what it costs them to run this service, and it is a whole endeavor that is clearly not simple or other groups would have popped up to compete.
Clearly based on the announcement that they will be making changes and token price adjustments they are also figuring this out, but I am under no illusion that at the end of the day they will serve the more profitable side of their user base out of necessity if nothing else.

We the traders and 'customers' can say 'no we won't support your site if we feel it doesn't align with our trade values' but I think for many people convenience and access to trading at all wins out currently. Now if the wait times and token loses become too much and make it no longer convenient then that will change.

I agree.

Pinandpop posted several months ago that they were no longer going to flag manufacturer flaws, but yet they continue to flag these flaws. Why? Who knows. But could it be because they are stuck with how they started and how they established trader expectations for the level of flaw review. Perhaps PnP is not actually able to adjust so easily to how they would prefer to run their business because no one weighs in on the side of 'stop' to the level of pin inspection madness. But without any hard facts, I don't think I am going out on a limb to say with absolutely certainty traders do verbalize and complain to PnP that the pin received from a TA has a flaw they don't like.

If something changes at PnP, great, but ultimately this is not the goal of my discussion thread. Raising awareness, so traders can understand other points of view does no harm. Going to continue encouraging DPFers to share their experiences with the inspection process in this discussion thread. All voices welcome.

 

[IVMathGirl]

First, P&P refunds trade tokens for canceled trades when certain criteria are met. The criteria for a token being "spent" is available on the "Buy Trade Tokens" page in the FAQ section (Buy Trade Tokens | Pin & Pop). I believe the refund happens once the declined pin is mailed to you.

Second, it is possible to provide access to images of your pins during trade arcades. I use imgur.com to upload pictures of flawed pins, then I add the URLs to the condition notes for the respective pins. All of this prep work doesn't matter if the other party does not read the condition notes, but at least I did my part. Also, providing this information can help ensure a trade token refund if the other party cancels the trade.

Lastly, P&P is taking a lot of heat for the behavior of trade arcade participants. P&P provides magnified photos of the pins, but it is the party on the other side of the trade who makes the decision to cancel the trade. When a trade is canceled for questionable reasons, I am more concerned with identifying that trader than canceling my P&P VIP membership.

I don't live near any Disney parks or stores, and I find individual mail trading exhausting due to the constant back and forth. Therefore, trade arcades are my favorite way to trade. I receive dozens of authenticated pins every 4-6 weeks, so I think the cost of postage and tokens is fair. I was hesitant to participate in the second chance boards at first, but I have decided to list my rejected pins since they are already at P&P. I lose nothing if there is no interest in my pins, but at least I won't miss possible trade opportunities.

Good luck to everyone participating in the next trade arcade. 😊

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

Second, it is possible to provide access to images of your pins during trade arcades. I use imgur.com to upload pictures of flawed pins, then I add the URLs to the condition notes for the respective pins. All of this prep work doesn't matter if the other party does not read the condition notes, but at least I did my part. Also, providing this information can help ensure a trade token refund if the other party cancels the trade.

This is more effort than I am willing or capable of doing... Especially since I don't mind flaws. I have too many pins and too many multiples. I am actually already physically exhausted after TA weekends with the effort I put into making trades during the events.

To clarify: I am not giving heat to pinandpop. This is actually a thread to support PnP in their initial effort to move away from the factory flaw blemish flags on our trades. Perhaps PnP has changed their mind and are now recommitted to flagging factory flaws, and if so, their decision is what it is. This discussion is to change PnP participants hearts and minds as to what is fair for all traders who use the platform. To have people support PnP with reasonable expectations.

I do go through moments where I don't feel the way I trade works with the PnP model, but not giving up my VIP either. I am too invested as stated above. 😃

 

[Ach West]

Conclusion: The interests of traders who accept minor flaws are being pushed aside in favor of those who insist on flawless pins.

That conclusion suggests a mental image of flawed pins being snatched out of the hands of people who want them. 😀

I think people should be able to collect what they want, & that no one should be forced to collect by someone else's standards.
If someone doesn't mind flaws, they should be able to collect pins even with flaws (& by all logic, they should have a much wider range of pins available to them). If someone really doesn't like flaws, they should be able to collect only the pins they're happy with.

Pin & Pop may have problems (once again, I don't use it, & nothing in this thread is inspiring me to start), & 'trader's remorse' may be a real problem with people backing out of trades . . . but I don't think people's choices about their own collections is the problem.

(Throughout this all, I keep remembering a non-Disney pin I bought online a few years ago. Brand-new, directly from the company who designed the pin, not damaged . . . but with a very distinctive factory flaw; a long, thick hair permanently sealed in the clear coat over the enamel. No amount of someone else being fine with that would convince me to keep it, & my reaction was to never buy from that company again. Which is probably something Pin & Pop would like to avoid.)

 

[Pidge]

First, P&P refunds trade tokens for canceled trades when certain criteria are met. The criteria for a token being "spent" is available on the "Buy Trade Tokens" page in the FAQ section (Buy Trade Tokens | Pin & Pop). I believe the refund happens once the declined pin is mailed to you.

Second, it is possible to provide access to images of your pins during trade arcades. I use imgur.com to upload pictures of flawed pins, then I add the URLs to the condition notes for the respective pins. All of this prep work doesn't matter if the other party does not read the condition notes, but at least I did my part. Also, providing this information can help ensure a trade token refund if the other party cancels the trade.

Lastly, P&P is taking a lot of heat for the behavior of trade arcade participants. P&P provides magnified photos of the pins, but it is the party on the other side of the trade who makes the decision to cancel the trade. When a trade is canceled for questionable reasons, I am more concerned with identifying that trader than canceling my P&P VIP membership.

I don't live near any Disney parks or stores, and I find individual mail trading exhausting due to the constant back and forth. Therefore, trade arcades are my favorite way to trade. I receive dozens of authenticated pins every 4-6 weeks, so I think the cost of postage and tokens is fair. I was hesitant to participate in the second chance boards at first, but I have decided to list my rejected pins since they are already at P&P. I lose nothing if there is no interest in my pins, but at least I won't miss possible trade opportunities.

Good luck to everyone participating in the next trade arcade. 😊

These are all really important and well-stated points. Pin & Pop is serving the entire pin community, and there is a wide range of personalities in any community. I really think it would help to know the flaw tolerance level of someone before I trade with them. I am not going to hold every pin under a microscope and add notes for every tiny scratch or speck or other production flaw. And I find it comical to be asked to accept a pin that has a tiny scratch that I would never notice. But that is me. If I am about to trade with someone who is a perfectionist, I would like to know. I'd rather make a trade with someone who shares my tolerance level.

And I would love to be able to just auto accept those minor flaws on certain pins, but I understand that is a spectrum that would be very difficult to categorize. How do you define "minor flaw" that would please everyone? I do not envy Pin & Pop for trying to navigate all this.

I am a total introvert who really dislikes trading in person. It is way too overwhelming for me. I love being able to sit and think about a trade for a bit and explore options. I absolutely love Pin & Pop and won't be going anywhere anytime soon. I do wish I could get my pins faster, but nothing is perfect. And canceled trades are disappointing, but at least we can now put them on the 2nd chance board. I do wish I wasn't charged a second token for trades made there. That is a little frustrating.

 

[IVMathGirl]

This is more effort than I am willing or capable of doing... Especially since I don't mind flaws. I have too many pins and too many multiples. I am actually already physically exhausted after TA weekends with the effort I put into making trades during the events.

To clarify: I am not giving heat to pinandpop. This is actually a thread to support PnP in their initial effort to move away from the factory flaw blemish flags on our trades. Perhaps PnP has changed their mind and are now recommitted to flagging factory flaws, and if so, their decision is what it is. This discussion is to change PnP participants hearts and minds as to what is fair for all traders who use the platform. To have people support PnP with reasonable expectations.

I do go through moments where I don't feel the way I trade works with the PnP model, but not giving up my VIP either. I am too invested as stated above. 😃

The part I emphasized in your message is exactly how I feel about regular mail trading! I like that P&P meets my need for autonomy, data analysis, and pin trading. However, even I can agree that prepping for trade arcades can involve a lot of time and effort...especially if I haven't organized my pins in weeks. 😊

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

I think people should be able to collect what they want, & that no one should be forced to collect by someone else's standards.
If someone doesn't mind flaws, they should be able to collect pins even with flaws (& by all logic, they should have a much wider range of pins available to them). If someone really doesn't like flaws, they should be able to collect only the pins they're happy with.

I totally agree everyone is allowed to trade/collect how they want. I share this with dollar value traders all the time... but that is another discussion. Saying people cannot trade/collect a certain way is not the point I am making.

PnP resources are 1) time and 2) money when it comes to turning around trades. The checking for these flaws takes addtional resource (time) and so PnP hires additional staff (money).

No one is saying, a trader who gains a pin that does not meet their needs for flawlessness, is not welcome to trade it on upon receipt (that is the beauty of pin trading - never stuck with a pin). Traders are additionally able to trade for another identical pin (like the one they trade away) that (hopefully) will meet their specific needs. Basically, it should be the trader taking responsbility for how they desire to trade and realize the limitations of the PnP resource. Figure out how to make PnP work for how one trades, without demanding PnP find flawless pins. Please tell me why PnP is responsible for enabling one's trading preference on their platform?

 

[momin.ator]

The part I emphasized in your message is exactly how I feel about regular mail trading! I like that P&P meets my need for autonomy, data analysis, and pin trading. However, even I can agree that prepping for trade arcades can involve a lot of time and effort...especially if I haven't organized my pins in weeks. 😊

Remember when I was organizing my pins? It became a full-time job so I stopped. 🙂

 

[Ach West]

Please tell me why PnP is responsible for enabling one's trading preference on their platform?

Pin & Pop isn't responsible for it; it's their trading platformer & they decided this was how they wanted it to work - probably because it got more people to join, trade repeatedly, & ultimately spend money there.

Pin & Pop could have just as easily decided to ignore people's trading preferences entirely . You could send in all you pins, pay for tokens, & receive completely random pins in return! After all, if you got pins you didn't like you could just (pay tokens to) trade them again. . . !
. . . but most likely people would not want to do that.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

Pin & Pop isn't responsible for it; it's their trading platformer & they decided this was how they wanted it to work - probably because it got more people to join, trade repeatedly, & ultimately spend money there.

Pin & Pop could have just as easily decided to ignore people's trading preferences entirely . You could send in all you pins, pay for tokens, & receive completely random pins in return! After all, if you got pins you didn't like you could just (pay tokens to) trade them again. . . !
. . . but most likely people would not want to do that.

I really appreciate the time you are taking to post an alternative view to this discussion. You are my foil for this discussion. Wish you could approach it with more history/knowledge as there is a lot about pinandpop that is ignored in your comments here.

[I hope this discussion does the reverse and opens you up to the possibility of trading on Pinandpop. It is actually a lot of fun - my efforts here are to make it better/even more fun. You also could probably support your comments better if you use the platform. Off topic... but if you do at least 10-ish trades during a trade arcade the cost is pretty much a wash for how much those 10 trades would cost in regular mail trading for the efficiencies Pinandpop lends to the ability to multi-pin trade when you ship to them.]

 

[Ach West]

I really appreciate the time you are taking to post an alternative view to this discussion. You are my foil for this discussion. Wish you could approach it with more history/knowledge as there is a lot about pinandpop that is ignored in your comments here.

[I hope this discussion does the reverse and opens you up to the possibility of trading on Pinandpop. It is actually a lot of fun - my efforts here are to make it better/even more fun. You also could probably support your comments better if you use the platform. Off topic... but if you do at least 10-ish trades during a trade arcade the cost is pretty much a wash for how much those 10 trades would cost in regular mail trading for the efficiencies Pinandpop lends to the ability to multi-pin trade when you ship to them.]

Thank you - I was really unsure if I should keep posting here at all, because my opinions are clearly not the popular ones.

 

[Ajk]

I don't necesarily disagree with you @Ach West I think Pin and Pop is free to set the process any way they want as it is their platform. And I don't think they are catering to or against any particular type of pin collector. They provide information about the condition of pins and leave it up to the individual to choose to accept or reject the trade. The fact that some are more prone to reject or accept is on the collector, not PnP.

That said, I do recall, as others mentioned, that PnP had said they were going to stop highlighting minor production flaws. They don't seem to have done that and I personally would prefer that they did for similar reasons others mentioned (might make things overall faster, save them effort and cost, etc), but again, that's their business choice to make.

I have had a number of times when I was sent photos of a pin and asked if I wanted to continue the trade and, with one exception, I have always been fine with the pin. For me, if it doesn't stand out pretty significantly in the larger photo, I accept it. I'm sure things that have to be zoomed in on I would never notice in in-person trading. But that's me and I recognize others may be more detail oriented and sensitive about it. I have had times when I traded in person and, in the excitement of the moment, didn't notice a significant flaw until I got home. So I do appreciate PnP potentially saves me from similar disappointment.

I do agree with the point others have made that not all rejections may be due to quality and some might only be an excuse to back out of a trade. I have no doubt that is a significant, potentially even majority, percentage of the cancellations.

I very much like PnP as a way for those of us not near a park to do trading throughout the year. It doesn't really bother me when one of my trades gets rejected by the other party as I'll simply get my pin back and try to trade it again to someone else. It would be nice if turnover was faster overall, but losing access to my pin for a couple of months is a non issue for me since trading opportunities aren't that frequent for me anyway. Plus it's not like that one pin coming back to me is the only pin I have available to trade.

 

[TheMickeyMouseRules]

Thank you - I was really unsure if I should keep posting here at all, because my opinions are clearly not the popular ones.

I think we all have a tendancy to feel that our views are not the popular ones. (ie, I feel that way too, but I keep trying to support understanding of my views.)

 

[Story]

I think we all have a tendancy to feel that our views are not the popular ones. (ie, I feel that way too, but I keep trying to support understanding of my views.)

I totally relate to this! I’m always in fear of killing threads because I was a serial thread killer back in the day 😀 of course not by choice! It was a life I was forced into by my own wordiness 😂💕

I’m grateful to everyone taking the time to share their views as it’s helping me understand PinandPop more and when I have a chance to do a trade arcade I’ll be able to go in with eyes more open as to expectations verses realities!