I threw up in my mouth

[Merryweather]

A few points on this:

1. Disney needs to move production back from China.
2. People really need to stop buying from sellers from China. There are those that I have heard of that buy the scrappers to trade for pins at the parks.
3. We as responsible pin traders should make sure word gets out about these sellers.
4. Also as responsible pin traders we should call out those that we know (without a doubt) buy these pins to resell or trade.

All very valid points. I will get on 3 above once I have a bit more time. I will ping Erica, Hope and few more people to share/compare notes about scrapper sellers as well as high end pins with known or suspected scrappers.

The problem is that those lists can not be easily published on-line for everyone to see because of legal reasons. That said, I have seen Disboards post a thread about good/bad sellers in 2009. The list is outdated of course, but for the ones who are interested, it can be found here:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2213419

 

[momin.ator]

Merryweather. I am surprised they put this list back up. I had it bookmarked awhile ago and they
had totally cleared out everything in the post. Thanks for the link. I may cut and paste into a
file before they go away again.

 

[hopemax]

The problem is that those lists can not be easily published on-line for everyone to see because of legal reasons.

I think I've sort of figured out a way around this. I had started to implement it before we learned what new Pinpics was going to be, and then got sidetracked. Plus, it doesn't work as well on the new sites, because they don't have the right tools. We may not be able to keep a list of bad sellers, but we can keep a list of the pins certain people have sold.

The basic idea: monitor certain eBay sellers listed pins. On one of the pin sites, create a "dummy" account. List all the pins sold by a specific seller, under owns, a different seller could be listed for trades, and a 3rd for wants. People could use the "compare" tools to check their own Owns list against these lists. However, Old Pinpics is the only one that has the tool. People could still view wants/trades on like DPP. Plus, the downside is that it messes with T/W ratios.

The lists themselves, are simply a copy of what someone has sold on Ebay. So there shouldn't be any legal ramifications. There are certain "implications," but those are only shared via word of mouth.

 

[Ozzie1988]

i am sure the seller takes the scrappers from the factory and resells them. i've purchased the "LE 1" tiana and Naveen frogs from them and they look great i cant even tell. so many marques, PTNs, Jumbos, DSF, PTD/S, Box sets(still in the box) and many other nice pins have been sold by this ebay.

 

[rik1138]

I didn't read the whole thread, but with regards to DSF pins, you want to make sure they include the original packaging (including the plastic bag with the barcode sticker). And also make sure the lot number (or serial number, whatever it is) is printed on the back of the pin in the same way it was originally (either stamped (black ink), etched (laser engraved into the back) or molded in (part of the original mold like the DSF logo), and that the number matches the number on the backing card. Has anyone received a pin from China that has this number on the back? I'd be curious to know the level of detail these are being counterfeited at... I try to put all of this information on DPP (and include large pictures) for most of the DSF pins being released now (assuming I can physically get them)...

I guess it depends on if it's a scrapper or counterfeit... Scrappers may look exactly the same even with these numbers, but counterfeits likely would not.

Also, with regards to DSF pins, since they are all sold at one location, it's pretty safe to say that any coming from China are scrappers/counterfeits.

But if people can't be bothered to see that a seller has 75+ neut/neg feedbacks in the last 12 months, I can't feel too sorry for them buying fake pins... That's like buying a Rolex off a guy on the street for $100 and then complaining later when you find out it's fake... The criminals are clearly identified on eBay, all you have to do is look.

Check the feedback people... If they have feedback rating in the thousands, and ANYTHING less 99.9, that means they've received a LOT of negative feedback. Even a 99.8 percent on someone with 5000+ feedback means they've received multiple (likely 20+) negative remarks. I don't care who you are, that's not a good sign. In fact, no matter how high their feedback is, if their percentage is not 100%, look to see why. Get in the habit of doing that for _all_ your eBay purchases...

 

[rik1138]

The problem is that those lists can not be easily published on-line for everyone to see because of legal reasons.

I don't believe that's the case. There's no reason what so ever for not having a thread about people that are selling fake pins. Do you honestly think one of these criminals is going to try to sue the board because we list them here?

I've said this numerous times before, this is, literally, the only collecting-based forum I'm on that does not have a blacklist of people to avoid to protect it's members. I've been on dozens (probably 100s) of forums for other hobbies and collectibles, and not one of them has ever had a problem listing eBay names, posting auction details (including screen-shots of the auction listing so they are preserved permanently), common forum names and in some cases even the Email address and city/countries they are in to help protect their members and actually STOP the activity...

If we never tell our members who is selling the fake pins (in an open way that all can see), we will never be able to stop them. No one thinks to come here and say 'Hey, can someone send me a list of shady sellers on eBay?' before they start buying them. Every new member that's joined since I've been a member here that realized they got burned bought pins from a seller that everyone here knew to stay away from... But for some reason they aren't allowed to publicly post that information. How many times have you seen a new member join up all excited about a great deal they got on a huge lot of 100+ pins shipped straight from China and eager to trade/sell?

I don't know where this 'legal concern' came from, but unless you intend to use the list to slander people you don't like (that would be a problem), there's absolutely no risk of any legal action. In fact, if the person really is selling fake pins, you'd WANT them to file a lawsuit against you. That would make them appear in court, and you could notify Disney that someone that's counterfeiting their property will be showing up in court. They'd love to know about that.

But, to date, in nearly 25 years of being on the internet and joining collecting groups/lists/forums, I've never heard of one even being given a C&D for having a list of people that have ripped off other members. The people doing the criminal activity are not going to through themselves into a court room.

 

[Nettiejeanne]

I can't believe that these scum now sell fakes or scrapped Free-D and pin on pin! Those used to be safe! Plus... how DARE they mess with MY PTDs!?!? I wish we could prove it somehow and get them banned from ebay. That would be ideal. Their IP address would be blocked.

I hate what this does to the hobby. Sad day in Pin World.

 

[hopemax]

But if people can't be bothered to see that a seller has 75+ neut/neg feedbacks in the last 12 months, I can't feel too sorry for them buying fake pins... That's like buying a Rolex off a guy on the street for $100 and then complaining later when you find out it's fake... The criminals are clearly identified on eBay, all you have to do is look.

I always wonder... since I believe the HK seller deals in actual scrap, which may have an error but is also likely to be the proper weight and colors making them seem authentic vs the cheap counterfeits, how many traders, even "good" traders, buy this stuff and then use them to fill their trader bags.

 

[Molly]

@rik... I have said exactly what you are saying for over a year now.

Brace yourself forum cause this is about to happen.....:soapbox:

I not only know for an absolute fact what the law says here in California but I volunteered to have an attorney represent the forum FOR FREE should anyone ever try to start **** about posting this information. I was shot down and told essentially to know my place, whatever. Until this community screams this information from the hilltops it will not stop, in fact in the minuscule amount of time that I have been collecting pins (a bit over a year) I have seen this problem escalate tenfold. You can spend hours in the parks without seeing a real pin because these same KNOWN resellers wander around the parks (lazy jobless losers) and remove any and all real pins to resell and replace them with pins they paid pennies for ordering directly from China. This is not speculation, I was there in January and because only a couple members here know what I look like, I stood right next to a very well known reseller who was discussing with their little "crew" what the gameplan was to "strip cast lanyards" and then meet back up to give him ALL the pins. WTF? When you see people "trading" out of ziplock bags, it's a pretty clear indicator that they know they are dumping garbage on lanyards.

Where the community is enraged about the tables being removed from the park I actually saw it as a positive step in the right direction. I have hopes that they will soon be able to implement a policy to deny trading scrappers. The truth is that they trade for the guests, if the guests are getting scrappers because of the same element of people that they essentially banned from the parks, logic dictates that they should be able to simply refuse a pin because it's quality is suspect. If you point out scrappers to CM's they will remove them from their lanyards. If they can do that then they have to know that they are the virtual street corner for these illegal transactions to run through. The endgame in this will either be restricting suspected scrapper trades or they will stop trading altogether. I can assure you that Disney knows about this problem and the easier of the two choices will dictate the outcome.

A certain member who had a very public problem with pinpics suggested that DPF's reason for not posting such lists was because pp was part of the COUNTERFIT/SCRAPPER problem and they pressured this forum to do whatever they said do. What I am saying is just secondhand info but I can personally attest to the fact that when I simply stated that "PINPICS SUCKS" (my opinion and yes I stick by it) they bombarded the forum mods demanding that I be banned, that my posts be removed etc. So much so that a certain member and former mod here who works for PP publicly told the forum that because I, me, a single solitary person had the nerve to say "PINPICS SUCKS" that we all would lose the "privilege" of having our forum accounts linked to PP! WTF? Really? You are going to hurt your own numbers just to silence ONE person? Come on people really, is what you are doing that dirty that you cannot risk having ONE person calling you out about it? It is my personal opinion and no amount of pressure or even legal action (they can't legally control my opinions, although they may try and be laughed out of court) so why make yourself look like the overbearing titans they deny being.

This is a major part of the problem and PP's ties to companies in China has long been discussed as being a huge part of the scrapper problem that we are now seeing come to fruition. People said that they would never COUNTERFIT DSF pins....well whoop there it is. People said they would never COUNTERFIT pin on pins because of the cost...umm it's happening. This practice is not just bad for disney it is most damaging to us the collectors. Every time a pin is faked your authentic pin loses value because people will be afraid to buy or trade for it. With so many of us being stuck with secondary market prices we are spending boatloads of money on pins that will have zero value should we try to unload them in the future. This hobby is NOT an investment opportunity as so many people try to reason, you are buying something today for hundreds or even thousands of dollars that has the potential to go the way of the Beanie Babies and leave you feeling just as stupid....again. Buy something because you love it not because you hope to flip it later. That way you will always get what you paid for (if it's not fake) and you won't be crying a river when the bottom falls out. Thank (with a middle finger)your local cast lanyard stripping, scrapper flipping, wallet dipping scumbag for doing this to your collection....don't reward them by buying from them.

Of course people that do dirty deeds don't want that info out there, they will try any and everything possible to silence it but what happens when you keep quiet is that they get away with it. Much like the ever popular "STOP SNITCHING" campaign that the drug dealers, car thieves or other law breaking douchebags have somehow made into an anthem. People when you allow the trashiest people in this society to dictate not only what is acceptable social behavior but also what your reaction to it should be....we are all in serious trouble. START SNITCHING! Start calling people out for being scummy lying cheats that love money more than morals. This goes for every aspect in your life not just collecting. The sooner people acknowledge that ITS GOOD TO BE GOOD AND ITS BAD TO BE BAD, the sooner this country will be the place it was designed to be instead of the breeding grounds of self entitled, LAZY, unemployed (by choice) layabouts that think smoking weed, playing video games and flipping pins is an honorable "profession"

I will now jump down and kiss myself! You have to have soul and be Superbad to get that last part.

Molly......out

 

[rik1138]

What I am saying is just secondhand info but I can personally attest to the fact that when I simply stated that "PINPICS SUCKS" (my opinion and yes I stick by it) they bombarded the forum mods demanding that I be banned, that my posts be removed etc. So much so that a certain member and former mod here who works for PP publicly told the forum that because I, me, a single solitary person had the nerve to say "PINPICS SUCKS" that we all would lose the "privilege" of having our forum accounts linked to PP! WTF? Really? You are going to hurt your own numbers just to silence ONE person?

If that's true, then I would like to personally thank you for creating the situation that caused DPP to be created. Even without a trade assistant (although that is coming), it's already a better alternative to PP simply because it's _by_ collectors _for_ collectors. Not owned by people that just want to make money...

People said that they would never COUNTERFIT DSF pins....well whoop there it is. People said they would never COUNTERFIT pin on pins because of the cost...umm it's happening.

Well, only an idiot would believe they'd _never_ be counterfeited, but it does take more work... But have we actually seen counterfeit DSF/Pin-on-pins? The few I've seen (very few) have been scrappers actually (manufactured at the same place/time as the real ones, just not passing quality control). There's never been a reason to think these won't exist for every single pin made as the factory always over-produces the amount needed... This is really obvious with DSF pins- They sell out a run of LE300s in one day, and then they have some later to give away in contests and such... They always get more than 300 (or whatever the # is), and you know the factory made a lot more as some just don't come out right and have to be rejected...

 

[jadeites-lady]

There is a difference between counterfeits and scrappers.

Scrappers - those that didn't pass quality control and should have been tossed. There should at least be 10-20% scrappers for each pin (yes, even the reveal/conceal disney girls, dsf marquees, etc.) because, let's face it, no factory can make 300 perfect pins (or however many LE pins there are supposed to be for that specific pin.) They can't even make OE pins perfect (there are so many flaws on the OE frozen snowflake it's ridiculous). A LE300 pin probably had at least 350 pins made (and that's not even including the PPs and APs)

Counterfeits - those that use the same mold as the original but the factory isn't authorized to make more. Either the same factory that made the real/genuine ones (and scrappers) or another factory somehow got hold of the mold.

Obviously, every pin can potentially have counterfeits Sad sad news. But most of us aren't in this hobby as an investment

 

[rik1138]

Counterfeits - those that use the same mold as the original but the factory isn't authorized to make more. Either the same factory that made the real/genuine ones (and scrappers) or another factory somehow got hold of the mold.

Actually, the counterfeits that I have seen confirmed were clearly not from the original mold, that's how you can tell them apart. Counterfeits are made by (most likely) another factory trying to re-create a very close copy of a pin. As it's nearly impossible to duplicate one exactly, you can always find little differences in them. Placements of eyes, thickness of the lines, length and placement of any line or detail. They are obviously different than authentic pins when compared side-by-side. Sometimes the entire pin might be a little smaller as well, which might suggest trying to make a mold off of an existing pin... This is also why pin-on-pin and FreeD actual counterfeits are rare (assuming true counterfeits have ever been seen of these types). Pin-on-pin requires twice as much work, and the FreeD thing is probably hard to reproduce perfectly, especially if the counterfeiting factory doesn't normally offer that. I suspect most 'counterfeits' of these pins are actually scrappers.

I tend to think it's unlikely that the original molds are re-used much after the initial run (unless Disney advises them future pins might be needed). They are stored for a certain amount of time, and then recycled. I suppose it's possible that they may get out of the original factory, but that's usually the one thing a factory will try to prevent- loosing something that can produce more of _their_ product (for legal or illegal purposes). Even if it's ordered by Disney, the mold is the _factory's_ work, and they will protect that.

 

[Molly]

The molds that are made for LE Disney pins are DESTROYED at the request of Disney just to prevent this kind of thing from happening. This is firsthand information and not simply something that I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend.

As anyone with international ties knows, nearly all knockoff/fake items are simply reproduced from looking at or molding the original. It has been suggested many times that certain pin folks would actually go to China to have these pins counterfeited then bring them back or have them shipped and resell them here.

There is a very clear difference between a scrapper (defective or low quality) pin and a fake/counterfeit, oh side note, I was told that the reason the gloss is literally scraped off of the front of scrappers (telltale sign) is because they believe that would make them worthless by scratching off the fronts with a grinder or something. They should tell them to throw them into a melting pot IMHO.

The whole situation sucks but greed is an epidemic.

 

[starry_solo]

I remember those counterfeit vinylmation pins (based on real vinylmations) were the same size as the regular vinylmation pins. Even though they were counterfeit, they were kind of cute

 

[Tru7h]

Can someone PM me the sellers to avoid? Thx

 

[dawny]

A few points on this:

1. Disney needs to move production back from China.
2. People really need to stop buying from sellers from China. There are those that I have heard of that buy the scrappers to trade for pins at the parks.
3. We as responsible pin traders should make sure word gets out about these sellers.
4. Also as responsible pin traders we should call out those that we know (without a doubt) buy these pins to resell or trade.

EXACTLY!!! well said!

Selen--yeh im burnt and lost love for pin trading so just chillin for a while. Kinda into trading in person now. SO FOR YOU I SAY awe poop.
miss you PM me and we can catch up

 

[RaChEltheRabidRabbit]

Its not just people from China that are making counterfeits. There are people here in the USA that go to the big WDW Pin Events every year that make counterfeits of the pins that are sold at the events along with any other pin that they receive in a trade from the event.

 

[starry_solo]

Its not just people from China that are making counterfeits. There are people here in the USA that go to the big WDW Pin Events every year that make counterfeits of the pins that are sold at the events along with any other pin that they receive in a trade from the event.

What?!

P.S. I did hear that certain cold & hot sellers on ebay were actually based in the US

 

[Molly]

What makes me sooooooo upset is seeing these sellers with virtually stellar feedback. I mean really people you don't know that what you have there is garbage? Even people that just trade in the parks should be able to tell the difference between a scrapper and an authentic booster pin. It sucks.

 

[Arendelle]

Can someone PM me sellers to avoid?

 

[MAL]

Bummer, thanks for the heads up. I'm glad I purchased the LE 400 roger rabbit when it initially came out. Seems like it is getting more and more difficult to buy non counterfeit pins unless purchased directly from a Disney store or immediately after it's released.

 

[SoraPandora]

@Molly, I did not have any idea about the "lanyard strippers" as you called them. That is disgusting. :facepalm: I thought the only reason I see so many scrappers on CM lanyards is that everyone's buying lots on eBay now. I didn't realize there were actually people out there who devote every day to wandering the parks nabbing the "real" pins. Ugh. :ugh:

Also, I just had to comment on this one little thing because it didn't sit right with me...

When you see people "trading" out of ziplock bags, it's a pretty clear indicator that they know they are dumping garbage on lanyards.

I'm one of the odd pin traders who does NOT wear her lanyard into the park, or carry a big pin bag. When I wear a lanyard, I'm terrified of losing my pins or scratching them up. And pin bags are just too heavy to tote around all day. (I go to the park for the characters and the rides first and foremost - Pin trading is an afterthought to me.)

So I carry a small, clear zipper pouch in my purse. It's a cosmetic bag with pins on foam, but from a distance it could resemble a ziplock bag. So I just wanted to say that not EVERYONE who trades out of a little bag is out to get you. :lol:

 

[Molly]

LMFAO @Sorapandora.....so sorry, I did not mean to offend. I am talking about a plain old plastic baggie that pins are just jingling around in. I actually use a cosmetics case to trade myself (not clear or baggie looking its actually a velvet brush bag lol, I rarely if ever trade or even put trades on my lanyard. I would also never carry around a huge trader bag and thankfully on my last trip I was able to get a super cute tiny CM trading bag from Echo (who was awesome) so my keepers went in there and my traders hung out in the green velvet.

I should not have made such a blanket statement as I am sure that there are people that just dump traders into ziploc baggies...just because I have never seen a real pin come out of something like that I guess I should leave room for the 350+ days of the year that I am not in the park.

As for "lanyard stripping" it is a daily business for a lot of pin sharks, the big pins only come out occasionally and you know they need to make money for stuff like 40's, weed and video games so they flip HM's, boosters and rack pins that they get for pennies from cast lanyards. They take other unemployed "friends" and or use children to get them. They then sell them to people that actually know what they are buying and want authentic pins, they tend to get a much better price that simply the "tradeable pin lots" Remember the recent wave of HM pins? Those Pascals alone were selling for over $20 a piece...it was uuuuugly out there and the problem only gets worse as more and more of that population learns that pin flipping beats burger flipping.

If you ask cast members that trade regularly they will surely be able to identify by face several of the people that do this for a living. Because they can limit the trades to one, you will usually see these kind of people operate in groups. I was only there for 4 days in January and saw more of this kind of thing that I had ever seen before. It was so bad that one group was following me and my sister around because they knew that we were trading booster pins that they could get off of the CM for a .02 cent scrapper and turn around and sell that pin for a few dollars. Greed sucks, sociopaths run rampant whenever there is an opportunity for quick cash....tax free of course.

If I offended anyone with the comment about ziploc bags I apologize, I was simply making a statement based on what I have seen.

 

[tinkerbelle1956]

I don't even want to bother with pin trading with CMs because of the scrappers. I bought Jim his Hidden Mickey Pascal set and my Rapunnzel parking sign for $40.00 plus shipping. I'd rather just buy the real ones. I'll take a few with me to trade with Scoop and I have some pins for Holland. Perhaps I'll get lucky with some CM exclusives, but I doubt it.

 

[malitrader]

I would like a list of bad sellers on ebay to avoid