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DSF Line UPDATE! 1/30/13

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DSF Line UPDATE! 1/30/13
To close or not to close ... that is the question ... .

Keep it civil, stay on topic, or this thread will close. You have been warned.
 
I did like how they stuck to their rule when one family asked if it was ok to go sleep in thier car and were told no, then when they checked the next person in line and found one was in their car sleeping, and tried having it ok'd they were told, " I just told that family no, it wouldn't be fair to tell you yes" so she called her husband and he came back.

And I totally understand the need for the strictness for the return line, to get things moving quickly and as smoothly as possible, having everyone thier in order, on time, this is how they make sure it Is done, I get it. And I do like the numbered bracelet that I appreciate.

I just feel bad for those who missed out after camping for 2 days, and who knows what happened to cause them to be late.but there were good forum members there to help. Now we just need to find someone with an extra rapunzel to help marissa. I wish I had a spare.
 
For me, there are just too many grey areas. I appreciate your effort to explain everything in black and white though. I'm sure everything would be much easier if it really was just black and white. I just can't help feeling bad for anyone who put in all that effort just to fall at the last hurdle. You're right about taking perspective though. I don't think I'd ever be willing to camp out for pins in the first place.
 
What I disliked was not being a honest 100% set time to line up, I went stir crazy not knowing when I should leave to go line up.I think the not knowing helped convince me to leave earlier. A set time should be stictly enforced. Yes traders will be milling around, in there cars or walking around Hollywood blvd waiting for the time to arrive but a set time might have prevented the 2 day campout.
 
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Due to this rule my person couldn't get the pins so I had two chances to get it and with the first rule change of the line up time messed it up as Joey was going to help me out and then the 2nd was due to the time rule and with me not having rapunzel or PODMs then I at a loss to even try and trade for the UP one so Im quite disappointed
 
This is what I took away from the campout:
You must stay in line the entire time yourself. No line swapping.
You may leave the line for these reaons only: To use the restroom or to go eat or go to the car to pick up sleeping supplies or put them away. And then you may be gone for up to 1 hour only.
You may NOT save a place in line for anyone except for the 1 hour exception above. If they are not there, they must join the end of the line when they arrive.
You must arrive back before the specified time. Give yourself lots of time for traffic or any other unforeseen problems.

If I missed anything, please add.

Sherry4pins
 

And I was also going to help a friend get the Rapunzel box. I was pretty bummed about this whole release. If only they stuck to that 6 pm rule everything would've worked out perfectly. . .
 
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bombardon3 said:
To be honest I like the way DSF does it better than Disneyland since the Disneyland wristbands are not numbered so you can be in line for hours and then still end up behind a bunch of people that ran to the pin store faster than you.
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What DLR needs to do is set the pin release time to when the park opens for general public. Too many "cool kids club" people running in for character breakfast and hotel stays getting in early and running store to store. Make the pin release at normal opening, not magic morning.

I am also pretty sure it's always been a rule at DSF no spot-swapping. That happened at last year's Valentines release and the people got away with it then. But the rules stated at the beginning of this years line was the 1-hour kind of deal. You can go, but only for an hour. I, and some others, asked for permission to go watch Peter Pan in the El Capitan theater and got permission. We are still on the premesis and paying them so I think we should be able to watch movies there from now on if we check out and in at acceptable times before and after the showing. Leaving for work...Not sure that would fly the press test.
I find it dishonest and am a bit turned off to people that try to take advantage or think of themselves as a special exception. Obey the rules, act like an adult, and don't always try to cheat or gain an advantage. Leaving for work is not ok. Spot holding/swapping, not ok. But that's just me. If you can do it and get away with it, then shame on security and shame on people that covered up for you. You know if you come you have to stay. I don't get why people think its ok? If I thought I could just take off for hours I would have come and lined up at midnight too, but apparently I don't have a ton of friends that will cover my tracks for me?

This was the facebook post from 2012's Valentine's pins. Apparently they need to post this everytime from now on for people trying to cheat the system. Give them an inch and they take a mile. They try to be nice and let people be comfortable and go out to eat, run things to the car.
 
I think what they need to clarify is what 'saving a spots' means...

To me, 'saving a spot' is when I show up, and am holding a spot for a friend that will show up some number of hours later. That's 'saving a spot', and it affects everyone in line (this is what happened with the Beloved Tales lineup when several children suddenly showed up at the very end to join their parents and all got wristbands). I believe that's what they are specifically referring to when they say 'saving spots is not allowed'. (Although the 'no in and outs' rule may also apply...)

If you are holding just one spot, but the body in that position changes occasionally, I don't think they've every really said anything about it. As long as the person behind you is still the same # in line they've always been. Not saying it's necessarily right or wrong (or fair/unfair), but since it has no impact at all on the rest of the line, I don't think they've been too concerned about it... And until now, no one has complained that I've seen.

This particular line-up was a little different also in that they actually closed the line and wouldn't allow new people into the alley. I don't believe they've ever done that, so if you wanted to swap with someone for a while you had to actually get permission. (I wasn't there, but I assume that was the case?)

In all honesty, I'd be willing to bet a lot of people will welcome the opportunity to allow people a few hours to go home if there's ever a multi-day camp out in the summer...
 
I think the correct line number to point out in the list of rules for this current topic of line saving is..

4. No "in and outs" of line, except for bathroom use.

However considering that rule #1 1. Pin Traders may begin to line up Friday at 11:00 PM. was of course broken by TWO NIGHTS it is clear that the so called "rules" are fluid at best and only come into play when it is beneficial to DSF and not the customer. I was horrified to see that people that showed up 2-5 minutes late were turned away, I honestly felt physically sick to see such a thing especially considering that the rest of the so called rules seem to be thrown out the door.

For those that were sent packing the legal jargon for this type of thing is called "pattern of practice" when someone person or business does something repeatedly the law says that there is a reasonable expectation that whatever the "something" is be it accepting your rent late repeatedly with no action, letting you park your car somewhere that it is not supposed to be, letting you loiter where it is not supposed to be allowed and in this instance a repeated and somewhat expected failure to enforce "the RULES" so it goes to reason that if you were allowed to break rules #1 and #4 that you should be able to break any and all of them! A dirty business that's for sure.

I have made it very clear in past posts that I object to small children "camping out in an alley" and was met with not only rude and defensive responses from of course those guilty of doing just that but also other members that either supported such rubbish or admitted to doing it themselves. I did not respond to the poster telling me that I should "mind my own business" and I basically just left this thread alone because arguing about something that should be a universally accepted standard of decency was a waste of my time when the opposition tries to justify doing such an unthinkable wrong. I also saw a post that said I did not care about the children and that I only wanted more pins for myself. Let me now do that, I do not live in Southern Ca, I would never under ANY circumstance sleep in an alley for a pin AND considering that from what several people in the know have told me about those pins that the children bought are sold on eBay or through the board so why would I care if an adult or child bought the pin if I was interested in purchasing it? I wouldn't care what the source was as long as I got what I wanted right? Well the truth is that I did not and will not want, purchase or trade for this release as I see them as black spot on collecting as a whole. A system set up for greed, bad citizenship and of course child abuse is not something I want to be party to.

It seems that people are failing to look at what "child exploitation" actually is. There are laws in this country to protect children from "working" and if your child was sleeping in an alley so you could sell the things that you forced them to buy because you want/need pins or money etc. you are guilty of child exploitation PERIOD. It is also quite a new concept where the people that are breaking not only the general decency principal but the actual law are the very ones touting the battle cry of "mind your own business" or "stop snitching" this is a cultural downfall in my opinion. Since when do the criminals get to dictate what acceptable behavior is? START SNITCHING, GET IN PEOPLES BUSINESS THAT DO NOT KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE, that should be your moral center and your basic duty.

If a parent, child, friend or complete stranger was murdered in the street would you scream "stop snitching" to the potential eye witnesses? Um no you would/should be begging for someone to tell you who did it. When I was growing up if you were a child misbehaving in town any adult that observed it would scold you and or spank you right there in public. You see people didn't "mind their business" they wanted a place to live where rotten children didn't grow up to be rotten adults and parents not only appreciated the assistance they expected it. In nearly every other country there is a sense of community a sense of what is good for my neighbor is good for all of us and where the term “ It takes a village” comes from as the “village” looks at all children as their own and behaves as such. We the people of this country have built walls and so called "boundaries" in which we are pushing our neighbors away. Yes things are different and people do not share the same beliefs on child rearing (spank don’t spank etc.) but the general idea that if someone does something wrong "WE" the people that know what they are doing can and should speak up and out about it.

If people spoke up and stopped minding their own business we would be in much better shape as a country, community etc. If criminals knew that no matter what if ANYONE saw them doing something that they would be called on it chances are they would be less likely to do it in the first place. In several other countries if someone is seen breaking a law, robbing a bank etc. the people will attack the criminal and some deliver capital punishment in the streets! That type of thing goes on because the community in general is not a bunch of crazy killers that like beating people in the streets, they want, expect and DEMAND a higher standard of behavior and as such they police themselves. We as a civilized society should not need the law, our neighbor or a total stranger to tell us how to behave or raise our children, unfortunately some people do need it. IF you fail to live up to what any "civilized" person would consider a basic standard of care for a child an onlooker should feel morally compelled to speak up for that child who can’t speak up for themselves. In other countries, many of which I was referring before, there are no laws to protect children but you know what they don't pimp their kids out to make ends meet. Yes several other countries have sweat shops where SOME people actually force their kids to work and the law could care less, well the United States of America is not one of them!

I will close with this..... if you believe, support or encourage people to use their children as a means to make money whether it is by queuing them in an alley in West Hollywood or ANY other type of money making scheme you are simply wrong.




 
However considering that rule #1 1. Pin Traders may begin to line up Friday at 11:00 PM.
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This was never posted. The posting on Facebook was for "thursday evening" line up request. This is because the Line in the alley interferes with overall building operations. The posting was then amended to "lineups may start thursday" then to "Lineups may begin anyime, you do not have to wait until 6pm". That last entry on Facebook was the only mention of a specific time by DSF. the only place that times came from were from people posting what they were told by random employees when calling DSF, but yet the official written posting never gave a time. So exactly what RULE did they break?? The only hard rule ever given by DSF is "BE BACK IN LINE BY X:XX AM OR YOU FORFEIT YOUR PLACE IN LINE"(Paraphrasing) every person is told this when the wristband is put on them, EVERY PERSON. you want to talk about living in a better world yet you negate to mention PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY for ones own actions!! While I do not disagree completely with what you are saying, if you have never been, and never experienced a DSF campout, then you have no freakin idea of what you are talking about when it comes to "the rules" and have no right to be morally outraged. you are entitled to your feelings, but to start bantering for legal action is downright stupid!!!!!!
 
chipdale123 said:
And I was also going to help a friend get the Rapunzel box. I was pretty bummed about this whole release. If only they stuck to that 6 pm rule everything would've worked out perfectly. . .
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Not a problem, I at least know you was willing and I guess I am taking that as something worthwhile and that there are kind people still in this hobby.
 

That doesn't really make any sense... So are you saying that if I can find one law that the police don't really enforce (and believe me, this isn't hard to do), I should be able to reasonably expect them to not enforce ANY laws? I don't think so...

As it applies to the DSF:
It's seems to be reasonable to expect them to be lax on rules #1 and #4 based on past experience.

However they have NEVER given anyone an exception to the 'Be back at THIS time' rule. EVER. That rule is _always_ strictly enforced, and that should be your expectation. So they are holding to their pattern quite well, actually...
 
There is reasonableness and there is deviation. The reasonable person would say you knew you had to stay and you knew you could not "swap." The deviant would say "But this, "but that." Deviants will always try to find a way to justify their behavior. They will also act like a child caught red handed when called out and will become immediately defensive and generally attack back. Or get their bully friends to gang up on you.

Seperate issue. I know some brought kids to resell/trade the pins and some only came because their kids wanted to go. Would you say it was ok to sleep in an alley with a 5 year old if they had a chance to meet the President? See the Pope? Attend a new Disneypark opening? All are an experience. Urban camping for the Boy Scouts of America is actually right off the side of the 101 fwy when you leave Hollywood. Kids camping with adults is fine. Generally you have campfires, hiking, smores. This time you have lots of pin show and tell, watching Peter Pan, eating ice cream, etc. Pulling them out of school to buy something? I'm not sold on that. But I observed both kids having the times of their life playing and kids that were completely miserable and had emotional break downs often (probably from lack of sleep and change of their normal schedule.)
 
I think another tell tale sign of the kinds of people we are dealing with at pin releases. Once a few people got skipped because they missed the return time, they were overheard conspiring to get an orange highlighter to make it look like they were back on time. So then the DSF staff had to go and write down the numbers of the people that didn't show up. Juvenile.
 
Pattern of practice is something usually brought up in discrimination cases. For example, if males who got back late were allowed back into line and females were told to go to the end of the line. I don't think it applies here.
 
bombardon3 said:
Pattern of practice is something usually brought up in discrimination cases. For example, if males who got back late were allowed back into line and females were told to go to the end of the line. I don't think it applies here.
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It is actually a term for the reasonable expectation for something to continue to be as it has been and has nothing to do with discrimination. If you can reasonably expect that because they have a pattern of any practice (have been doing it, whatever it is over and over) then it is reasonable to expect that they would continue to do so e.g. let you park your car, pay late and here modify the rules as need be.

My personal feelings for those being turned away is called empathy and something that clearly not everyone possess. I genuinely feel bad for someone that slept outside for days to be turned away at the last moment, its simply not fair imo.
As I have stated repeatedly I have zero interest in any of the pins in question and never, even before the camp-out was I looking for them. As to the Boyscout, family camp out question, if you take your child on vacation to camp it will never be in an alley in Hollywood where crime and craziness are rampant. They will not be forced to stay in a very limited area and wait in line for days. The question about meeting the President, event etc. that is an astounding NO I would not allow or force a small child to sleep in the streets in a line for anything or anyone ever. EVER!

Again if you child is a collector of anything that requires such sacrifices it is your duty as a parent to say no. This instance has nothing to do with collecting when it has been said over and over by friends of the parents that those pins purchased were only purchased to be sold which as I have been saying since my first post is CHILD EXPLOITATION. Defending it or making excuses as to why this one or not that one can or should do it is pointless. No adult should use their child in such a way period. If whatever, and I mean everything that the child waited in line for and purchased was only for his/her personal collection I would say the same thing about it being inappropriate just not child labor in essence but still child endangerment, abuse and still wrong.

If your child wants to get tattoos, smoke and party all night at five years old you say no because it’s not appropriate. If they want to be groupies and follow a rock band around the country instead of going to school same answer I hope, no. Children need to be protected even if it’s from their own parents sometimes. If anyone doubts that what was done constitutes abuse, endangerment and exploitation please feel free to call CPS with all of the actual facts (not some romanticized version of “camping”) and inquire, I assure you it is.

Going forward I have said my peace and will not continue to defend my position on this matter. I collect pins because I love them. I joined this group to meet like minded individuals and I have thankfully but have also seen several newish as well as veteran members either run off or ostracized from the forum for not agreeing with certain peoples actions. Several people have posted about being afraid to say anything because they do not want to be attacked by the infamous group of board bullies that come to the aid of each other no matter how wrong they are. I did not join to become yet another outcast of the various "cliques" and certainly did not join to be just another "customer" to eBay sellers trying to avoid paying fees. I know where to go if I want to pay re-sale (inflated) prices.



 
I don't want to start a huge legal debate on a pin forum so I just recommend that everyone go look up the definition of pattern of practice before believing that there is a law that says if a rule isn't enforced it goes away.
 
I'm pretty sure there is a difference in waiting to see the Pope and being a groupie or getting a tattoo. Tailoring the situation to the extreme to favor your point of view isn't quite fair now is it? How about waiting in Compton to see the Lakers parade after they win the championship? You can't wait in Beverly Hills to see it, they don't go there. I feel like I'm reading something from an ACLU lawyer.

I don't have kids nor am I defending either position. I merely stated I witnessed both sides, the happy kids and the sad kids. But if you take away the happy kids right to collect and do as they want to protect the sad kids then you are continuing the cycle of protectionism and paranoia that has frozen this country into failure. Casting a blanket over all parent of small kids at DSF is not the answer.
 
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I genuinely feel bad for someone that slept outside for days to be turned away at the last moment, its simply not fair imo
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They were not just turned away at the last moment like they were there the whole time and got royally screwed as you insinuate. while you are entitled to your empathy and I will never say otherwise, to try to turn what really happened upside down and inside out is just wrong on your part, since again as you state, You weren't there!!!! and this is not the first time this rule has been enforced. It has been enforced for EVERY wristbanded event where people were allowed to go home after getting the wristband. This has been blown way out of proportion because of the pins involved. plain and simple. You are entitled to your opinion as am I, but facts are facts and please do not twist them.
 
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